Lewis' view on playing 2B

[chpettit19]

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Betts moved to SS with an offseason and spring training to prepare.

And it didn't go well.

And he's back in RF.

Betts played SS April 20, 2023. He didn't prepare for that during the offseason or spring training other than his usual habit of taking grounders for fun throughout the season. He played 107 games in RF, 70 at 2B and 16 at SS in 2023. Then he spent the offseason working at 2B because they planned to play Lux at SS in 2024. But Lux was terrible there so they moved Mookie to SS halfway through spring cuz Lux couldn't make the throw.

Mookie is back in RF now because their outfielders are worse than their infielders and that's where he's needed. Chris Taylor has a wRC+ of 63. Kiermaier is at 53. Outman at 53. Pages 94. Heyward (no longer on the team) 91. Their only outfielder not named Mookie with a wRC+ over 100 is Teoscar Hernandez. Rojas is one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball and has a wRC+ of 107. That's why Mookie is back in RF. It's where his team needed him.

[chpettit19]

30 minutes ago, ashbury said:

I'm going to post two screenshots, in this post and the next because they're kind of large. The first shows the position of the runner as Lewis releases the ball.  The second shows an instant later, for reference, to show the distance the ball traveled and the distance the runner traveled.

It could be that a different fielder could have done a faster job of coming up with the grounder and converting it into a throw.  That would be a different (and maybe interesting) discussion concerning Lewis's defensive chops at this time.

But given Lewis's own knowledge of his mechanics, it looks to me like he made the right choice. Throwing toward second would have been futile.

My thing about this play is that Lewis has never had soft or quick hands. Could the elite infielders have made a play at 2B? I bet they'd have tried. But Lewis has never been seen in that way. Even his transfer on this play was a little rough. He doesn't have the hands to make that play. Never has and never will. That has nothing to do with his reps at 2B, it's just his physical limitations. I could've taking a billion reps at 2B and not been able to do it either because I just don't have those physical skills.

His hands are why he's always been questioned defensively. And they're why he had no shot at that guy at 2B. And he's had plenty of IF reps to work on those hands. He just isn't that good. Very few guys are.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

From an old bleacherreport article I dug up.

Evaluators are still split on where Lewis will settle in defensively, but there's little question he has the tools to be an impact offensive player. 

As for the aforementioned defensive question, Baseball America offered this:

“He played center field often on the summer showcase circuit preceding his senior year and showed plus range and flashes of advanced defensive instincts. He has the quick feet and plus arm strength required to play shortstop, though scouts aren't certain that he'll make the necessary adjustments as he continues to fill out and the speed of the game advances.” [BA]
 

@Mike Sixel @tony&rodney @chpettit19

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

From an old bleacherreport article I dug up.

Evaluators are still split on where Lewis will settle in defensively, but there's little question he has the tools to be an impact offensive player. 

As for the aforementioned defensive question, Baseball America offered this:

“He played center field often on the summer showcase circuit preceding his senior year and showed plus range and flashes of advanced defensive instincts. He has the quick feet and plus arm strength required to play shortstop, though scouts aren't certain that he'll make the necessary adjustments as he continues to fill out and the speed of the game advances.” [BA]
 

@Mike Sixel @tony&rodney @chpettit19

Good athlete, "bad" hands. The outfield is still where I'd like to have seen him after it was clear he wasn't a major league SS. But he simply isn't a very good infielder. He doesn't have the hands for it. He's certainly serviceable. But he's not good enough to lock down a position. Unfortunately. 

(I say "bad" hands because they're still much better than any of ours have ever been, but when talking MLB SS, or plus infielders, his are sub-par)

[cmoss84]

Betts was drafted as a 2B...

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Good athlete, "bad" hands. The outfield is still where I'd like to have seen him after it was clear he wasn't a major league SS. But he simply isn't a very good infielder. He doesn't have the hands for it. He's certainly serviceable. But he's not good enough to lock down a position. Unfortunately. 

(I say "bad" hands because they're still much better than any of ours have ever been, but when talking MLB SS, or plus infielders, his are sub-par)

These are the types of players that you move around to find a place for their bat. You are not taking a large hit at his primary position if they move.   

You don't move Arenado off of third base because he is an exceptional 3B perhaps the best in history. You are going to take a fairly large defensive reduction at the position. 

With that said... If St. Louis found themselves in a situation where Jordan Walker for example is available to play 3B, they had a decent OF to fill in for Walker for example... and they were just plum out of SS's for whatever reason injuries or an OPS of .108.  They would move Nolan to SS to fill the massive hole and present the best lineup they can. 

With that said... Lewis is an OK defender at 3B and he will be an OK defender at 2B. He would be an OK defender in the OF. He isn't Arenado but he's OK.

Getting Miranda, Lewis and Santana, Wallner, Larnach and Kepler into the same lineup makes the team better. Will we need it come playoff time? That's yet to be determined but it's certainly possible when you look at the current landscape. 

I have no problem with Lewis at 2B. My problem is that we should have considered this sooner and we would know for sure if there were going to be massive problems with him at 2B. Maybe tried it as soon as the combination of these things. 

1. Lewis is healthy and playing

2. Miranda and Santana are looking like productive important members of the team. 

3. Julien was not looking like a productive member of the team.

I don't like the desperation end of the season switch but I'm grateful it's happening late in the season instead of Game 1 of the playoffs. 

Once he gets a little confidence and comfortable... He won't be as concerned about it.  

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Betts was drafted as a 2B...

And has played 2B, SS, CF, and RF in the majors. It's actually a pretty typical MLB story. Lots of guys move around. Even super stars. Shoot, the Padres have at least 5 guys in their best lineup that were drafted and came up through the minors as shortstops. Machado (3B), Bogaerts (2B), Tatis (RF), and Merrill (CF) have all moved positions in the majors to best fit their team's needs. Shoot, Jackson Merrill's first official game in CF as a professional baseball player came on opening day as a 20 year old making his MLB debut.

[Riverbrian]

9 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Betts was drafted as a 2B...

Yep the Red Sox moved him to the OF because of the presence of Dustin Pedroia.  

OF was how he could make an impact quicker because Pedroia was going nowhere.

Not only do clubs move players around based on team needs when they are vets... they do it when they are young.   

[Riverbrian]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

And has played 2B, SS, CF, and RF in the majors. It's actually a pretty typical MLB story. Lots of guys move around. Even super stars. Shoot, the Padres have at least 5 guys in their best lineup that were drafted and came up through the minors as shortstops. Machado (3B), Bogaerts (2B), Tatis (RF), and Merrill (CF) have all moved positions in the majors to best fit their team's needs. Shoot, Jackson Merrill's first official game in CF as a professional baseball game came on opening day as a 20 year old making his MLB debut.

Yep... Don't forget Profar. 

I'll never understand this fear of moving players around. 

[chpettit19]

Just now, Riverbrian said:

Yep... Don't forget Profar. 

I'll never understand this fear of moving players around. 

Dang it! I couldn't think of who their left fielder was. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Doesn't do slumps. Doesn't do position changes.

[Shaitan]

wth is "The Minnesota Sports Fan" that is sourced for this?

Do they hold any credibility? Because to me it reads like some random person's blog, which is then licensed by msn.

Non story. As others have stated, he's obviously still playing 2B.

 

Edited September 6, 2024 by Shaitan
typo

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

@Riverbrian you were ok with Polanco at shortstop but not Royce Lewis? 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

though scouts aren't certain that he'll make the necessary adjustments as he continues to fill out and the speed of the game advances.” [BA]
 

I think you can see what happened. Royce has become a big dude. More power with big muscles and hopefully a great career as a hitter.

I can see Lewis becoming average with hard work and repetitions at the corner infield positions. I'm not too certain about the outfield anymore, although I did think that was a good option several years ago. He will never be as good as Julien at second base because his lateral movement is less than optimal for the spot.

[tony&rodney]

6 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

@Riverbrian you were ok with Polanco at shortstop but not Royce Lewis? 

Get back to us when Lewis is the starting shortstop in the All Star Game.

[stringer bell]

I was thinking about the Polanco experiment at third base while reading this thread. He was brutal at the hot corner, but he was one of the Twins' best hitters.

I agree with Brian that Lewis can be okay at third or second, like Devers is okay at third for the Red Sox. I think Lewis' throwing mechanics need work and his spring trainings and off seasons so far have been occupied by being injured or recovering from being injured. It's also clear that Lewis is a far bigger man than he was seven years ago when he was drafted and even two and a half years ago when he filled in for a Correa injury. 

Players do change positions all the time. Harmon Killebrew, Jim Thome and Miguel Cabrera were all regular third basemen who moved. Pete Rose went from second to outfield to third to first. Even Carlos Santana was briefly a third baseman. 

[Riverbrian]

15 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

@Riverbrian you were ok with Polanco at shortstop but not Royce Lewis? 

Same Consideration for both. 

I'm Ok with Lewis at SS if it gives us the best team when you consider the context of the rest of the team. If he is the best option at SS... then yeah... I'm OK.  

And that's why I was OK with Polanco at SS back in 2019. He was the best option at the time and we won 180 games that year. 

It's not that I thought Polanco was the best SS. It's not what you strive for but in 2019 the choice was basically Polanco or Adrianaza. I'm putting a 6 next to Polanco's name if that's the case.  

All I'm asking in this discussion is for everyone to just look at the current context of the team. What gives us the best lineup?  

In the current context of this team... September 2024. I think the best lineup includes Lewis, Miranda, Santana, Larnach, Wallner and Kepler. Although... I will strongly consider Castro over Kepler... I'm just thinking that Castro will be needed elsewhere.

In the current context of this team... right now... at this moment. If you want Lewis, Miranda, Santana, Larnach, Wallner and Kepler in the lineup. Someone has to move off the corner and into the middle. Lewis makes the most sense.  

He will be fine. Get him comfortable and he will think everything is Ok like I do. 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

6 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Get back to us when Lewis is the starting shortstop in the All Star Game.

I will get back to you before then. 

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

My thing about this play is that Lewis has never had soft or quick hands. Could the elite infielders have made a play at 2B? I bet they'd have tried. But Lewis has never been seen in that way. Even his transfer on this play was a little rough. He doesn't have the hands to make that play.

I don't know if I would predict "never will", but I think you and I are seeing the play the same way.  I'd like to find similar video for comparison, where a stellar second baseman has to go to his right and come up throwing toward second instead - an instant faster, presumably.

Here's another interesting data point - the runner seemed to believe the play would be to home.  Because (with his back to the second baseman after he passed him) he didn't slide into second to avoid overrunning the bag, and in fact rounded the base slightly toward third, as if confident the throw wasn't coming his way. Maybe Brooks Lee should have deked him, a little, though too much of that might get a rookie a reputation for bush league-ness, I dunno.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, ashbury said:

I don't know if I would predict "never will", but I think you and I are seeing the play the same way.  I'd like to find similar video for comparison, where a stellar second baseman has to go to his right and come up throwing toward second instead - an instant faster, presumably.

Here's another interesting data point - the runner seemed to believe the play would be to home.  Because (with his back to the second baseman after he passed him) he didn't slide into second to avoid overrunning the bag, and in fact rounded the base slightly toward third, as if confident the throw wasn't coming his way. Maybe Brooks Lee should have deked him, a little, though too much of that might get a rookie a reputation for bush league-ness, I dunno.

The runner behavior is just another indication that the actual act of stealing in that situation basically negates the mindset of a double play. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

57 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

I can see Lewis becoming average with hard work and repetitions at the corner infield positions.

I started by looking for Royce’s 80-20 scouting grades from 2017. These are proprietary but widely shared publicly. That said, I could not find his fielding ones and did not want to search forever. 

I’m fine with the judgment that Lewis has bad hands; I would estimate his grade for shortstop would then be 40 (50 being average). 

Can you find Lewis’s 2017 scouting grade for fielding and post it? 
 

actually @tony&rodney it’s not that big a deal. My well being doesn’t depend on knowing Royce Lewis’s scouting grades. 🙂 You are a good poster here and it doesn’t really matter if another poster (me) thinks you are coming completely out of left field on this. Peace 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Betts played SS April 20, 2023. He didn't prepare for that during the offseason or spring training other than his usual habit of taking grounders for fun throughout the season.

This is accurate. One day the Dodgers just announced Mookie Betts was playing shortstop. I remember it vividly because I literally laughed out loud when I read it. It was an absolutely bonkers situation.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is accurate. One day the Dodgers just announced Mookie Betts was playing shortstop. I remember it vividly because I literally laughed out loud when I read it. It was an absolutely bonkers situation.

And he embraced the challenge.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

And he embraced the challenge.

Is Lewis not playing at second? Sure looks to me like he is. It's okay to be openly concerned about your own ability to do a thing you haven't done in a long time, especially given the circumstances (end of season, in a playoff race).

[cmoss84]

12 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is accurate. One day the Dodgers just announced Mookie Betts was playing shortstop. I remember it vividly because I literally laughed out loud when I read it. It was an absolutely bonkers situation.

Yup. Same. I remember from fantasy baseball...was like, "how many games does he have to play to qualify as SS or MI???" 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

8 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

And he embraced the challenge.

Well right— if you realize that it’s more of a promotion than a demotion.

Also, have this gif of Mookie Betts bowling a 300 game. 

[RpR]

Lewis

 

[tony&rodney]

The Twins have been very disappointed with the production from second base this season. It makes sense to try anyone. The Twins realize that Santana is decent at first base and shows up every day. They know that Miranda is a total butcher at first base and only slightly below average at third base. They also know that Royce Lewis is a potential hitter in the lineup which makes it doable to move him to a new position when he does not DH. So the Twins have been getting Royce some grounders at second base and are still hoping for something else to happen where a better option is possible. Julien hits a home run so we should expect that he gets another shot at the bag. If Julien runs with the opportunity, the Lewis at 2B is over and he is ensconced as a DH. The Twins plan this season was to bludgeon other teams with their bats, not to win with rookie pitchers. Anyone who can hit is appreciated, greatly. I don't expect any long term effect going into next season. The Twins just need to limp forward enough to get into the playoffs where anything can happen, especially if a miracle descends in the form of two healthy and effective veterans: Correa and Buxton.

[Mike Sixel]

34 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Is Lewis not playing at second? Sure looks to me like he is. It's okay to be openly concerned about your own ability to do a thing you haven't done in a long time, especially given the circumstances (end of season, in a playoff race).

Fair, but it doesn't read like he's the leader we've been told about all these years. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, that possible

[Mike Sixel]

28 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Well right— if you realize that it’s more of a promotion than a demotion.

Also, have this gif of Mookie Betts bowling a 300 game. 

I could watch that all day for some reason