Blame Game: Who Gets the Most Blame for the Twins’ Poor Start?

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

This is a key point that I've not seen raised before.  I think the FO does this because they figure if the aging vet falters or is injured, then can then go to the youngster so they have a backup in place where if they go with one talented starter and lean on youngsters, where do they go if the youngster falters or is injured?  They'd have to reach deeper into the farm system or try to trade for somebody (which is difficult this time of year).

I hate this approach as I would rather deal with the pain of watching a youngster learn on the job than watching a vet trying to hold on, but I get their strategy (at least in their mind) here.

I can certainly understand the approach and their desire to have "depth." I just don't think Santana types are depth. They couldn't have expected him to be a league average player. Especially against righties. And their idea of depth is usually short side platoon bats (Margot, Farmer, Santana this year) which isn't depth because if they need to be put into everyday roles they aren't any good because they can't hit against 75% of the league. And that's what we're watching now. Guys who's only chance at success is to be placed in ideal situations against a small percent of the league and to be shielded against the rest of the league. Any sort of injury situation puts you in a spot of no longer being able to shield your "depth." If you have to shield someone from 75% of the league they aren't really depth. Definitely not 4-6+ million per player depth.

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

SSS   yes I can.   Also as to legitimate players still up with the team you have Kepler, and Santana.  Miranda and Julien are above.  The rest are backup or AAA players,  again injuries is making a reason why they are up or getting more at bats that they can,  and there is an aspect of luck and possibly early season issues.   

Obviously there is a large contingent that disagree, as I got 5 down votes. However if we sweep this series and get back to .500 in the next week or so,  really we are not in bad shape at all.    Reinforcements are coming.  

My disagreement is that injuries should be expected. Especially when you have Lewis, Buxton, Kirilloff, and Correa as 4 of your top 5 players. Backing them up with short side platoon bats and then being surprised those short side platoon bats can't hit righties when the guys who always get injured (or failed 2 physicals) get injured is bad planning, not bad luck. The Twins don't really have "backups." They play everyone on a pretty constant rotation. So I don't buy the "they're backups" argument either. They aren't backups. They're guys the FO hopes only play in ideal situations. But that's not a realistic plan because injuries are going to happen. The FO has a flawed approach that is predictably killing the team.

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

I wanted to stay away but I'm committed to working against cryabout clickbait as a dedicated caretaker.

Were I to fully take part, I'd actually add an entry for Twins media to take their share of blame.

Thank you for your service...

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

My disagreement is that injuries should be expected. Especially when you have Lewis, Buxton, Kirilloff, and Correa as 4 of your top 5 players. Backing them up with short side platoon bats and then being surprised those short side platoon bats can't hit righties when the guys who always get injured (or failed 2 physicals) get injured is bad planning, not bad luck. The Twins don't really have "backups." They play everyone on a pretty constant rotation. So I don't buy the "they're backups" argument either. They aren't backups. They're guys the FO hopes only play in ideal situations. But that's not a realistic plan because injuries are going to happen. The FO has a flawed approach that is predictably killing the team.

You should not expect Lewis and Correa to get injured.    Yes we platoon players but players that are playing that really are not replacement level players shouldn't be expected to performas great players. 

So what are you going to say if the Twins win the division at the end of the season . . .  the FO flawed approach hindered their winning but they won despite it?   Slumps happen,  losing streaks happen injuries happen.  Keep improving and get better the next day.  

[Woof Bronzer]

 

2 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Anything outside of players and coaches is an invalid response.

 

Counterpoint:  opinions are not invalid.  

[Woof Bronzer]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

You should not expect Lewis and Correa to get injured.   

You mean a guy who has missed more games in his MLB than he has played, and a guy whose medicals frightened off two teams who had wanted him so much they were willing to pay him a quarter of a billion dollars?   Astounding take.  

[Doctor Gast]

The schedule?- is the luck of the draw, it'd have been nice to face our last year schedule with MIA & HOU early. But you can't blame that.

Coaches?- and coaches teach only the philosophy they are told to teach. As far as I can see Popkin is a good coach. I don't blame them.

Owners?- IDK whether they can cough up more money or not but many teams have less of a budget that do well & there are many that have higher budgets & aren't doing that great. No matter what we are stuck with them & I'm happy they aren't Griffin. So it doesn't do any good to blame them.

Hitters?- They are basically the same as last season, when everybody raved about winning a postseason series. IMO hitters are the by-product of philosophy, drafting & development. I don't blame them. 

Injuries?- Yeah they hurt especially when they are 2 of our best hitters that are the archetype of the team's philosophy & bedrock of our INF.

I put the blame squarely on the FO. The philosophy for one thing. The 2nd thing is when I see teams aren't approaching this FO with good trade deals I don't have faith in this FO to inniate any good deals. So that's why I said that if this does nothing I'd rate this off season a C but after this FO was done I rated this off season an F because they made us weaker. I didn't think this season was going to be that good but it turned out much worse than I expected.

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

You should not expect Lewis and Correa to get injured.    Yes we platoon players but players that are playing that really are not replacement level players shouldn't be expected to performas great players. 

So what are you going to say if the Twins win the division at the end of the season . . .  the FO flawed approach hindered their winning but they won despite it?   Slumps happen,  losing streaks happen injuries happen.  Keep improving and get better the next day.  

You shouldn't expect Royce Lewis to get injured? Even after he came back healthy from the knee last year he went on the IL 2 more times. He's played 71 games in the majors because he can't stay on the field. Correa failed 2 physicals before he signed here and spent all of last year hurt. He hasn't played 150 games in a season since 2016, although he got close in 2021. He averages 123 games a year. They should absolutely expect both of those players to get injured. Their entire major league careers say they should expect that. I agree, bad players shouldn't be expected to be better than bad. That's my problem with their strategy. They should absolutely expect Buxton, Kirilloff, Correa, and Lewis to get hurt. They all have constantly (to differing degrees). When Buxton inevitably gets hurt and Margot is playing an everyday role they can't be shocked that Margot isn't good enough for that. Santana has been playing an everyday role since opening day when anyone who's looked at the last few years of his career should've known he wasn't good enough for that. If you're going to build your team around those 4 guys you can't sign short side platoon guys and then blame poor play on guys who you should've know would have to play bigger roles doing poorly in the bigger roles you knew they weren't cutout for but would have to play. It's a bad strategy.

Are there any other teams in the division over .500 at the end of the year? Did they get smashed in the playoffs? Winning a terrible division shouldn't be the goal. If this team wins 90 games and makes real noise in the playoffs I'll be more than happy to eat crow and say their strategy worked. What are you going to say when they don't win a terrible division for the 5th time in 8 years?

[Linus]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You shouldn't expect Royce Lewis to get injured? Even after he came back healthy from the knee last year he went on the IL 2 more times. He's played 71 games in the majors because he can't stay on the field. Correa failed 2 physicals before he signed here and spent all of last year hurt. He hasn't played 150 games in a season since 2016, although he got close in 2021. He averages 123 games a year. They should absolutely expect both of those players to get injured. Their entire major league careers say they should expect that. I agree, bad players shouldn't be expected to be better than bad. That's my problem with their strategy. They should absolutely expect Buxton, Kirilloff, Correa, and Lewis to get hurt. They all have constantly (to differing degrees). When Buxton inevitably gets hurt and Margot is playing an everyday role they can't be shocked that Margot isn't good enough for that. Santana has been playing an everyday role since opening day when anyone who's looked at the last few years of his career should've known he wasn't good enough for that. If you're going to build your team around those 4 guys you can't sign short side platoon guys and then blame poor play on guys who you should've know would have to play bigger roles doing poorly in the bigger roles you knew they weren't cutout for but would have to play. It's a bad strategy.

Are there any other teams in the division over .500? Did they get smashed in the playoffs? Winning a terrible division shouldn't be the goal. If this team wins 90 games and makes real noise in the playoffs I'll be more than happy to eat crow and say their strategy worked. What are you going to say when they don't win a terrible division for the 5th time in 8 years?

And our guy Max has been to the IL 8 times in the last couple seasons. You are crazy if you don’t plan on them getting hurt. 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

You shouldn't expect Royce Lewis to get injured? Even after he came back healthy from the knee last year he went on the IL 2 more times. He's played 71 games in the majors because he can't stay on the field. Correa failed 2 physicals before he signed here and spent all of last year hurt. He hasn't played 150 games in a season since 2016, although he got close in 2021. He averages 123 games a year. They should absolutely expect both of those players to get injured. Their entire major league careers say they should expect that. I agree, bad players shouldn't be expected to be better than bad. That's my problem with their strategy. They should absolutely expect Buxton, Kirilloff, Correa, and Lewis to get hurt. They all have constantly (to differing degrees). When Buxton inevitably gets hurt and Margot is playing an everyday role they can't be shocked that Margot isn't good enough for that. Santana has been playing an everyday role since opening day when anyone who's looked at the last few years of his career should've known he wasn't good enough for that. If you're going to build your team around those 4 guys you can't sign short side platoon guys and then blame poor play on guys who you should've know would have to play bigger roles doing poorly in the bigger roles you knew they weren't cutout for but would have to play. It's a bad strategy.

Are there any other teams in the division over .500? Did they get smashed in the playoffs? Winning a terrible division shouldn't be the goal. If this team wins 90 games and makes real noise in the playoffs I'll be more than happy to eat crow and say their strategy worked. What are you going to say when they don't win a terrible division for the 5th time in 8 years?

Correa played how many games last year???   As to Lewis,  a variety of injuries I am still not willing to say injury prone.   Buxton yes,  yet he has been the healthiest one and maybe has turned a corner.  They didn't have the options to buy higher level talent.  Be upset with that what you wish.  The long term plan is still in place and you have to admit there is still a better than fair probably they get to the playoffs.  Also when did we get smashed in the playoffs???  Just curious must have missed that last year.  Yes we lost, but we were not smashed.  

Their strategy is for long term success while fostering success at the MLB level that they can.  Poor division or not,  you answer your own question they are still winning.  For a small market team they are doing pretty well.  Yes I would like them to succeed at the upper echelons every year but I am happy with the current direction.  

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You shouldn't expect Royce Lewis to get injured? Even after he came back healthy from the knee last year he went on the IL 2 more times. He's played 71 games in the majors because he can't stay on the field. Correa failed 2 physicals before he signed here and spent all of last year hurt. He hasn't played 150 games in a season since 2016, although he got close in 2021. He averages 123 games a year. They should absolutely expect both of those players to get injured. Their entire major league careers say they should expect that. I agree, bad players shouldn't be expected to be better than bad. That's my problem with their strategy. They should absolutely expect Buxton, Kirilloff, Correa, and Lewis to get hurt. They all have constantly (to differing degrees). When Buxton inevitably gets hurt and Margot is playing an everyday role they can't be shocked that Margot isn't good enough for that. Santana has been playing an everyday role since opening day when anyone who's looked at the last few years of his career should've known he wasn't good enough for that. If you're going to build your team around those 4 guys you can't sign short side platoon guys and then blame poor play on guys who you should've know would have to play bigger roles doing poorly in the bigger roles you knew they weren't cutout for but would have to play. It's a bad strategy.

Are there any other teams in the division over .500? Did they get smashed in the playoffs? Winning a terrible division shouldn't be the goal. If this team wins 90 games and makes real noise in the playoffs I'll be more than happy to eat crow and say their strategy worked. What are you going to say when they don't win a terrible division for the 5th time in 8 years?

IMO, counting on Lewis is particularly optimistic. This marks the 3rd soft tissue injury in basically half a season. I don't think it's reasonable to expect something like torn cartilage or broken bones. Repeated "pulls," however, are a different animal. 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Blame games are unproductive, so I choose not to play them.

Better to just ignore problems and trust they resolve themselves. 

 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

6 minutes ago, Linus said:

And our guy Max has been to the IL 8 times in the last couple seasons. You are crazy if you don’t plan on them getting hurt. 

Show me another team other than the dodgers that have starting caliber players on the bench???   It just isn't reasonable.  

[Linus]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Show me another team other than the dodgers that have starting caliber players on the bench???   It just isn't reasonable.  

That’s a straw man. Nobody is saying that. It’s about the bench players you choose. 

[Woof Bronzer]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Correa played how many games last year???    

Great point.  He played 134 games and was so injured (by his own admission) that he was the 11th most valuable hitter on the team by WAR, behind such luminaries as Kyle Farmer (his backup) and Mike Taylor.  

[bean5302]

The number of injuries the Twins have experienced, all at the same time out of the gate, has been a more than I'd reasonably expect. I do think having Lewis, Correa, Kepler, and Duran all out at the same time for significant time to start the season off has impacted the team in the W/L category, but I don't think it's hurt the team any more than the roster construction in the first place.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Correa played how many games last year???   As to Lewis,  a variety of injuries I am still not willing to say injury prone.   Buxton yes,  yet he has been the healthiest one and maybe has turned a corner.  They didn't have the options to buy higher level talent.  Be upset with that what you wish.  The long term plan is still in place and you have to admit there is still a better than fair probably they get to the playoffs.  Also when did we get smashed in the playoffs???  Just curious must have missed that last year.  Yes we lost, but we were not smashed.  

Their strategy is for long term success while fostering success at the MLB level that they can.  Poor division or not,  you answer your own question they are still winning.  For a small market team they are doing pretty well.  Yes I would like them to succeed at the upper echelons every year but I am happy with the current direction.  

Correa played 135 games last year. This is a really weird argument for you to be making. He played almost the entire season injured, missed 27 games on top of that, which is actually better than his career norm, and you want to argue you shouldn't expect him to get hurt? He played 136 games the year before for the Twins. Those are his 3rd and 4th BEST seasons in terms of games played in 8 years (taking out 2020). That means 4 of his 8 years he's actually been below that. All you have to do is look at Buxton and Lewis' careers to see they're injury prone. It's not worth debating. Incredibly bold stance you're taking.

I don't have to admit there's a better than fair probability they get to the playoffs. I don't believe that, and didn't even believe their odds were as good as many claimed before the season started. Because I don't think Cleveland, KC, and Detroit are as bad as they were last year and the Twins are worse. I've been saying this for months now. The Central is not just going to be handed to the Twins. So, no, I don't have to admit they have a better than fair probability to get to the playoffs. They have real work to do. They lost 18 straight playoff games. I'm sorry if you don't think "smashed" is the appropriate term for setting the all time North American major sports league record for playoff losing streaks. Call it whatever you want, I guess.

They've been here for 8 years. Playing in the worst division in baseball and have won it 3 times. How long do we have to wait for this long term success to show up? They aren't still winning. They won last year. They're losing this year. They lost in 2022. They lost in 2021. I'm not telling you to be unhappy with it. But I'm going to need more than 3 of 8 division titles in a horrible division before I buy into them fostering any sort of success at all.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Correa played 135 games last year. This is a really weird argument for you to be making. He played almost the entire season injured, missed 27 games on top of that, which is actually better than his career norm, and you want to argue you shouldn't expect him to get hurt? He played 136 games the year before for the Twins. Those are his 3rd and 4th BEST seasons in terms of games played in 8 years (taking out 2020). That means 4 of his 8 years he's actually been below that. All you have to do is look at Buxton and Lewis' careers to see they're injury prone. It's not worth debating. Incredibly bold stance you're taking.

I don't have to admit there's a better than fair probability they get to the playoffs. I don't believe that, and didn't even believe their odds were as good as many claimed before the season started. Because I don't think Cleveland, KC, and Detroit are as bad as they were last year and the Twins are worse. I've been saying this for months now. The Central is not just going to be handed to the Twins. So, no, I don't have to admit they have a better than fair probability to get to the playoffs. They have real work to do. They lost 18 straight playoff games. I'm sorry if you don't think "smashed" is the appropriate term for setting the all time North American major sports league record for playoff losing streaks. Call it whatever you want, I guess.

They've been here for 8 years. Playing in the worst division in baseball and have won it 3 times. How long do we have to wait for this long term success to show up? They aren't still winning. They won last year. They're losing this year. They lost in 2022. They lost in 2021. I'm not telling you to be unhappy with it. But I'm going to need more than 3 of 8 division titles in a horrible division before I buy into them fostering any sort of success at all.

As I have said before if you are that upset with management or performance this isn't likely going to change for the Twins in the near term.   Their success in the last 8 years is something that can't be taken away even if you think it was poor competition.  It does look like the Central is becoming a tougher division for the foreseeable future.  4 decent teams.   1 non contender.  

When did they exactly lose 18 straight games . . .   all during this managements tenure   . . . where are you going with this it.  It looks like you have 20 year so pent up frustration.  

If I remember correctly me and you had this exact same discussion last year.   I've come to the conclusion you are a glass half empty I am a glass half full type of person.  If you followed baseball,  divisions are not won in April but they can be lost,  and like I said being close to .500 is not losing the division.   I look at the entire organization.  The talent in the minors is really becoming interesting.  There are potentially some foundational pieces that may be coming up the pipeline.  So yes,  looking at the big picture,  what the Twins management is doing and has done, I am very happy with.  I am also not willing to throw in the towel after 20 games.   

Ultimately better just leave it here.  You can continue to be upset with the direction, I will continue to cheer on my team.  

[chpettit19]

Just now, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

As I have said before if you are that upset with management or performance this isn't likely going to change for the Twins in the near term.   Their success in the last 8 years is something that can't be taken away even if you think it was poor competition.  It does look like the Central is becoming a tougher division for the foreseeable future.  4 decent teams.   1 non contender.  

When did they exactly lose 18 straight games . . .   all during this managements tenure   . . . where are you going with this it.  It looks like you have 20 year so pent up frustration.  

If I remember correctly me and you had this exact same discussion last year.   I've come to the conclusion you are a glass half empty I am a glass half full type of person.  If you followed baseball,  divisions are not won in April but that can be lost,  and like I said being close to .500 is not losing the division.   I look at the entire organization.  The talent in the minors is really becoming interesting.  There are potentially some foundational pieces that may be coming up the pipeline.  So yes,  looking at the big picture,  what the Twins management is doing and has done, I am very happy with.  I am also not willing to throw in the towel after 20 games.   

My point is they haven't had success over the last 8 years. I'm not trying to take their success away, because they don't really have much to take away. They've won the division 3 times. That's not the kind of success I want. I'm glad you're happy with it. No matter what division it is. I want more than 3 division titles in 8 years (7 to this point). 

I do follow baseball. And because I follow baseball I know that the "interesting" talent in the minors is average at best as a system as a whole. There isn't a pitcher in sight that looks like a front of the rotation arm. No, Raya and Festa don't fit that description because neither of them are allowed to even throw 70 pitches or 4+ innings. You want to see what "interesting" talent in an organization looks like? Go look at the Dodgers and Orioles. The Twins are an average organization getting average results. They aren't the worst, and firing the FO could absolutely lead to far worse results. But they aren't doing anything above average.

I'm not telling you not to be happy with them. You're more than welcome to enjoy 3 division titles in 7 years and carry hope that this team is going to win it for a 4th time in 8 years. I want more than that. You don't have to want more than that. But, believe me, I follow baseball. And, yes, I do have 20 years of pent up frustration because I want the Twins to actually be good and actually have a chance at a championship. They haven't been anywhere near that for 30 years. I understand people have different goals, and that's totally fine. But I don't see a lot of empirical evidence that this organization is actually doing anything that's getting them anywhere near a championship.

[Riverbrian]

I'm not looking to blame anyone. I'll criticize but not blame.

But If we must blame.

It's Ownership and that's the end of the list. 

The players answer to the coaching staff

The Coaching Staff answers to the Front Office

The front office answers to the owners.

It's always the people who hire the people. 

 

 

[Patzky]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

That's exactly what I got out of it. The occasional American League Central crown, LOL.

The Minnesota Twins clubhouse, "great place to hang out" 

Not even a fishing vest door prize this year..

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Cameron Green said:

The lack of real depth in the rotation is what scares me down the line into the months of June, July, and August. The front office obviously has banked on Varland being more productive as he showed down the stretch last season and in the playoffs as a long reliever, but with the way Louie had given up the home run ball on a regular basis was something to be aware of. Louie last season was typically solid the first time through the order but struggled as teams were timing him up easier than other pitchers.

Now, going out and getting DeSclafani wasn't the worst decision in terms of getting a #5 guy in the rotation, and Varland, yes, did beat him out in spring camp and DeSclafani getting hurt made it that much easier to put Louie on the Opening Day roster and rotation. However, when you lose an arm like Sonny Gray, you have to at least find a viable arm that can dependable. Are you going to find a guy who has Sonny Gray potential for less that 15-20 mil. a season, probably not, but slashing payroll after one of the better season's in recent years is no excuse to take a step backwards. To fans, they have no patience for the money game, or lack thereof, that the Pohlad's have played over the years. From Nolasco, Correia, Pelfrey, Bundy, Archer, and now DeSclafani, might as well find a way to get a viable arm, but they will use Pablo's new deal and trying to extend Ryan, and Ober as excuses to fly below the radar in payroll. 

 

Especially in the manner that notable arms have gone down this year already, if Pablo, Ryan, Ober, or Paddack have a similar injury, what then?

 

Are we the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. No, never have been, probably never will be. But it's unacceptable from a fan's POV to take steps back and almost invite the Tigers, Guardians, and Royals to have a shot at the division title 

Be glad they arent the Mets.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

My point is they haven't had success over the last 8 years. I'm not trying to take their success away, because they don't really have much to take away. They've won the division 3 times. That's not the kind of success I want. I'm glad you're happy

Then you better change your fandom to the Dodgers.  They are the only team that I see in the foreseeable future that is guaranteed to effectively win every year.  Other organizations are trying to win too.   

[Jocko87]

Now that we've gotten all the same old repeated front office wailing out of the way, I have a serious question.

What could they realistically have done in the offseason that would offset the poor performances of the players who were already here to the point that this article would not be written?  I agree completely that they own this roster entirely, but we are talking performances several notches below even the most conservative projections all across the roster.  

No matter how deeply (and incorrectly) you believe Falvine are pushing the buttons on pitch count and hitting plans, day to day on the field ain't on them. 

This will be a good article to bookmark for 6 months from now.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Cameron Green said:

The lack of real depth in the rotation is what scares me down the line into the months of June, July, and August. The front office obviously has banked on Varland being more productive as he showed down the stretch last season and in the playoffs as a long reliever, but with the way Louie had given up the home run ball on a regular basis was something to be aware of. Louie last season was typically solid the first time through the order but struggled as teams were timing him up easier than other pitchers.

Now, going out and getting DeSclafani wasn't the worst decision in terms of getting a #5 guy in the rotation, and Varland, yes, did beat him out in spring camp and DeSclafani getting hurt made it that much easier to put Louie on the Opening Day roster and rotation. However, when you lose an arm like Sonny Gray, you have to at least find a viable arm that can dependable. Are you going to find a guy who has Sonny Gray potential for less that 15-20 mil. a season, probably not, but slashing payroll after one of the better season's in recent years is no excuse to take a step backwards. To fans, they have no patience for the money game, or lack thereof, that the Pohlad's have played over the years. From Nolasco, Correia, Pelfrey, Bundy, Archer, and now DeSclafani, might as well find a way to get a viable arm, but they will use Pablo's new deal and trying to extend Ryan, and Ober as excuses to fly below the radar in payroll. 

 

Especially in the manner that notable arms have gone down this year already, if Pablo, Ryan, Ober, or Paddack have a similar injury, what then?

 

Are we the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. No, never have been, probably never will be. But it's unacceptable from a fan's POV to take steps back and almost invite the Tigers, Guardians, and Royals to have a shot at the division title 

Be glad they arent the Mets.

[Parfigliano]

Pohlad's are to blame because they determine the budget.  Then FO because they implement the budget the Pohlad's set.

 

[chpettit19]

12 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Now that we've gotten all the same old repeated front office wailing out of the way, I have a serious question.

What could they realistically have done in the offseason that would offset the poor performances of the players who were already here to the point that this article would not be written?  I agree completely that they own this roster entirely, but we are talking performances several notches below even the most conservative projections all across the roster.  

No matter how deeply (and incorrectly) you believe Falvine are pushing the buttons on pitch count and hitting plans, day to day on the field ain't on them. 

This will be a good article to bookmark for 6 months from now.

Why do you say it's incorrect to believe the FO is involved with the plans and day to day on field stuff? They have daily, sometimes multiple times a day, meetings with Rocco. They talk to the coaches/managers every single day of the season. They built the coaching staff based around guys they felt could implement certain strategies. They brought in players with certain skill sets. Why would it be incorrect to believe they are involved in the day to day plans? They're not sending guys to AAA and calling guys up from AAA based on hunches and guesses of what the on field staff are doing with guys. Falvine is incredibly involved in the day to day plans of this team.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm not telling you not to be happy with them. You're more than welcome to enjoy 3 division titles in 7 years and carry hope that this team is going to win it for a 4th time in 8 years. I want more than that. You don't have to want more than that. But, believe me, I follow baseball. And, yes, I do have 20 years of pent up frustration because I want the Twins to actually be good and actually have a chance at a championship. They haven't been anywhere near that for 30 years. I understand people have different goals, and that's totally fine. But I don't see a lot of empirical evidence that this organization is actually doing anything that's getting them anywhere near a championship.

Lee and Walker look like legit MLB players with potential all star potential.  Soto is young but early returns look good.  Winokur in SSS looks pretty good.  

Rodriguez and Gonzalez continue to excel at the things they do well, but still have things to improve.  Festa looks like could be a solid mlb pitcher,  Raya is too hard for me to tell.  

The quantity of solid arms in the minors is really starting to grow.  Lewis, Festa (Canterino and Priellip we will see if can pitch and how well) , Morris, Soto, Raya, Culpepper, Morris - then your 2023 non headliner picks (Hall, Questad, Stoffal, Dougherty, Dunn (looking very good) Langenberg, Paqualotto, and Lee).   We only need 1 to really become that #1 pitcher. 

If you compiled the 19, 21, 22, 23 drafts, the Twins have to have a top 3 record of drafting,   at worst top 5.  We have used a lot of draft capital to support the mlb team through trades.   You keep drafting well year after year after year, the results will show up at the big league level.  

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Lee and Walker look like legit MLB players with potential all star potential.  Soto is young but early returns look good.  

Rodriguez and Gonzalez continue to excel at the things they do well, but still have things to improve.  Festa looks like could be a solid mlb pitcher,  Raya is too hard for me to tell.  

The quantity of solid arms in the minors is really starting to grow.  Lewis, Festa (Canterino and Priellip we will see if can pitch and how well) , Morris, Soto, Raya, Culpepper, Morris - then your 2023 non headliner picks (Hall, Questad, Stoffal, Dougherty, Dunn (looking very good) Langenberg, Paqualotto, and Lee).   We only need 1 to really become that #1 pitcher. 

If you compiled the 19, 21, 22, 23 drafts, the Twins have to have a top 3 record of drafting,   at worst top 5.  We have used a lot of draft capital to support the mlb team through trades.   You keep drafting well year after year after year, the results will show up at the big league level.  

David Festa has 28 innings in 8 AAA starts. 15.2 in 5 starts this year. And 21 walks in those 28 innings, with 12 walks in his 15.2 this year. You can find that guy, and the entire list of other "eh" pitching prospects in just about every organization. You follow these guys so you're excited about the positives and what you hope they become. If you went and looked at every MLB organization as deeply as you look at the Twins you could find all the same guys. Then, in the really good systems, you'd find those guys plus guys with Canterino and Priellip's talent that aren't hurt and are actually dominating the minors.

I do love Jenkins, though. Think he's going to be amazing. Lee is exciting as well, and I really hope Rodriguez and Gonzalez and find continued success as they move up and pitchers are better able to attack their rather extreme approaches at the plate.

The Twins do not have an exceptional system. They have an average one. Top 3 draft records?! The Orioles are number 1 and it isn't even close. You're more than welcome to show your work on that claim, though. Top 3 to 5 drafts for 4 of the last 5 years yet aren't a top ranked system? Going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Be excited. Call me glass half empty. It's all good. We just disagree on the success they've had and where this organization sits. Reasonable minds can disagree. No hard feelings here. I'm glad you're excited about this team and organization. I just don't see it the same way.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

David Festa has 28 innings in 8 AAA starts. 15.2 in 5 starts this year. And 21 walks in those 28 innings, with 12 walks in his 15.2 this year. You can find that guy, and the entire list of other "eh" pitching prospects in just about every organization. You follow these guys so you're excited about the positives and what you hope they become. If you went and looked at every MLB organization as deeply as you look at the Twins you could find all the same guys. Then, in the really good systems, you'd find those guys plus guys with Canterino and Priellip's talent that aren't hurt and are actually dominating the minors.

I do love Jenkins, though. Think he's going to be amazing. Lee is exciting as well, and I really hope Rodriguez and Gonzalez and find continued success as they move up and pitchers are better able to attack their rather extreme approaches at the plate.

The Twins do not have an exceptional system. They have an average one. Top 3 draft records?! The Orioles are number 1 and it isn't even close. You're more than welcome to show your work on that claim, though. Top 3 to 5 drafts for 4 of the last 5 years yet aren't a top ranked system? Going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Be excited. Call me glass half empty. It's all good. We just disagree on the success they've had and where this organization sits. Reasonable minds can disagree. No hard feelings here. I'm glad you're excited about this team and organization. I just don't see it the same way.

Look at the players we have traded away, let alone in the reds system.  Yes Orioles are #1 because how many early draft picks have they had??  I didn't say #1, I said #3 or #5 especially when you considered where they were drafting. 

19 - Steer, Julien, Wallner, Varland, Canterino

21 -  Petty (top 100 prospect), CES  MLB player,  Povich, Festa

22- Lee,  (several pitching prospects)

23 -  potentially franchise altering draft with Walker leading the charge.   

Other than Orioles show me another team that has drafted that well, especially drafting later because you know they have won their division 3 out of those 8 years   geesh you have high standards.  You need to succeed but also draft in the top 5.