1991 vs 2023

[KP34Forever]

The face of Royce Lewis in this clip as channeling perfectly the exact feelings of every die hard twins fan this postseason is so great to see. 

If only we all could get as excited about our job as he does!

That hamstring didn't seem to be bothering him much tonight. Unless he wakes up Tuesday with a setback, I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet he starts at third base for game 3.

Correa looks like he's on his way to an ALDS MVP award. And you know he's still not 100% yet. That should scare any potential opponent.

We've got 3 chances to win 2 games - 
With 2 of those 3 games being at Target Field.
And Sonny pitching at home for game 3.
And Pablo pitching game 5 if necessary.
I like our chances.

I'm gonna say it. This feels different. This feels special.

Take a journey with me as I look at the 1991 team and then look at the 2023 team .I see a lot of similarities between them. 1991 was one the best world series of all time, and the twins had a great team, but I think 2023 might be even better. They might be a more versatile, complete team. 

Let's begin, shall we?

Immensely talented rookie sensation? Just one? Why not 3 or 4?

Lewis might not win ROY like Knoblauch did, or 4 WS rings, but Royce is just flat out better than Chuck. Plus Julien and Wallner both have had pretty impressive rookie campaigns. Kiriloff might not qualify as a rookie anymore, but he's just barely played more than an entire seasons with of big league games in his career and he looks like he's gonna rake for a while.

Advantage 2023

A leader, a star, a legend?

Kirby Puckett. That's all that needs to be said for 91. My favorite player of all time.

And yet in 2023, we somehow have 2 players in this category. Lewis, the reincarnation of Kirby, and Correa, the reincarnation of Jeter (I hate the Yankees, but Jeter was a class act.)

Correa's legend status in October is only growing bigger before our eyes. And, sure it's a small sample size, but Lewis shows no signs of being anything different then he's shown us thus far. It's hard for me to say it, because Kirby is such a legend here, but even if only slightly,

Advantage 2023.

Solid Starting Rotation?

Morris, Tapani, and Erickson compared to Lopez, Gray, and Ober/Ryan seems like a rather unfair comp. Unfair in that nobody, anywhere, EVER, is going to do what Jack Morris did in 91 ever again. Never.

But if you remove that from the equation, I feel like Gray and Morris is a more realistic comp. They've both got that fire within them. They've both got playoff creds. And I think, right now, Sonny has better stuff than Jack did.

Pablo I think comps better with Erickson than Tapani. Erickson had great stuff. Pablo has better stuff. And Pablo is a better teammate and nicer guy than Erickson, who was an arrogant *******.

Tapani was great in 91, but that was his ceiling and I think Ober and Ryan both have the potential to be the guy that can seal the deal for the twins with just 2 or 3 quality starts between now and the end of the world series if we get that far.

Ober will be much more comfortable in his next start now that he's gotten a little playoff experience.

Ryan has a chip on his shoulder and will be out to prove he should've started game 1 in Houston.

I call it a draw. But if you Minus the Morris Magic, then Advantage 2023

Versatile Bench?
Castro > Newman
Solano > Sorrento
Farmer > Larkin/Bush
Vasquez ≥ Junior Ortiz
Stevenson ≈ Jarvis Brown

Advantage 2023

Position comparison?
Harper vs Jeffers - Draw
Hrbek vs Kiriloff - Hrbek but only slightly
Knoblauch vs Julien - Knobby but only slightly
Pags/Leius vs Polanco/Farmer - Draw
(Pags/Leius vs Lewis - Lewis by a lot)
Gagne vs Correa - Correa, by a lot, and that's saying something because Gagne was a stellar defender, but his bat falls well short of Correa and his leadership.
Gladden vs Wallner - Gladden
Puckett vs Taylor - Taylor is no slouch, but he's not even holding Kirby's jock strap.
Mack vs. Kepler - Kepler
Lewis vs Davis - Chili was good. But not Lewis good.
I think that's a draw.

Rolaids Relievers Reputation?
Aguilera vs Duran - Aggy due to experience, but only slightly because 103 mph is 103 mph
Bedrosian vs Pagan/Jax - Draw
Guthrie vs Theilbar - Draw
Leach/West/Willis vs Maeda/Stewart/Varland/Paddack - 2023 by quite a bit
A lot of big arms in the 2023, most of them hitting high 90s-100s. If they can keep their nerves under control and avoid injuries they are clearly better. If the pressure gets to them, that's what ends our playoff run. I'm calling it a draw for now. 

Analytics vs "Aw hell it's just a game!"

Rocco vs TK. Yikes. TK might have known the most basic analytics back then. I imagine his head would explode in today's world of analytics and everything that it represents.
TK had a feel for the game. There's some things analytics can't measure. TK was locked in on those. Rocco on the other hand made some incredibly bold calls this year. Some worried. Some didn't. But I don't think he's following an analytics script right now like we're used to. I think he's going with a combo of analytics, common sense, and gut feelings. And if he can use the right tool at the right time 100% of the time this postseason, he might take the advantage from TK at some point. But TK earns the advantage here, because where else are you going to hear about ugly makers and diamond cutters anymore?
Advantage 1991

 

I tried to be as objective as I could with this. I'm sure there's some unintended bias in there somewhere. But I think I give the overall advantage, even if only by the slightest margin, to this years team. Because it just feels special this year... 

[RpR]

Hrbek was alot better than Kirilloff, at this point, whereas Knobloch, who I never liked, is just plain a lot better than Julien; the rest pretty fair observation.

[Longdistancetwins]

7 hours ago, RpR said:

Hrbek was alot better than Kirilloff, at this point, whereas Knobloch, who I never liked, is just plain a lot better than Julien; the rest pretty fair observation.

Totally agree with the above, but, yes, I’m feeling the similarity in having both a sprarkplug who produces (Lewis), leadership (Correa), and starting pitching.  

[Road trip]

You've over-rated Gladden quite a bit.  He was aging and no longer very good in 1991, and the Twins let him go after the season (OPS+ of 80, Yikes!).  Wallner has his issues as well to be sure.  LF was not a strength for either squad.

You've underrated Shane Mack, who was excellent in 1991.  By WAR he was their second most valuable player, playing an excellent RF and slugging for an OPS+ of 140.  Kepler has had a good year but for a brief period of time Shane Mack was an absolute stud.  Mack should really be better remembered in Twins lore.

But overall, I agree this team compares well with '91.  Like then, something *feels* different about this squad.... or maybe I just feel different after watching two decades of playoff futility.

 

[KP34Forever]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:35 AM, Road trip said:

You've over-rated Gladden quite a bit.  He was aging and no longer very good in 1991, and the Twins let him go after the season (OPS+ of 80, Yikes!).  Wallner has his issues as well to be sure.  LF was not a strength for either squad.

You've underrated Shane Mack, who was excellent in 1991.  By WAR he was their second most valuable player, playing an excellent RF and slugging for an OPS+ of 140.  Kepler has had a good year but for a brief period of time Shane Mack was an absolute stud.  Mack should really be better remembered in Twins lore.

But overall, I agree this team compares well with '91.  Like then, something *feels* different about this squad.... or maybe I just feel different after watching two decades of playoff futility.

 

Just curious on how I've overrated Gladden? And for that matter "by quite a bit"? I didn't make any comments on him other than choosing him over Wallner. OPS+ isn't that only factor. Gladden had speed and was a threat to steal bases, where Wallner doesn't have that reputation. Even if Wallner has comparable speed, he hasn't stolen nearly enough bases to be someone that opposing pitchers are going to consider him a threat on the basepaths. Plus Gladden had postseason experience. Gladden played better defense, though Wallner's arm is considerably better. And Gladden had the attitude that could also spark the team into action. I'm yet to really see that much yet from Wallner.

 

In the regular season, I'll definitely take 2023 Wallner over 1991 Gladden 9 times out of 10, but in a playoff run, give me 1991 Gladden over 2023 Wallner.  Every time 

 

Same question with regards to Mack? I didn't dive into that comparison either, I just chose Kepler over him. I agree 1991 Mack was phenomenal. But so was Kepler. I don't think I'd consider the entire second half of the season to be a brief period of time. Sure, it's essentially the same amount of games as Royce Lewis has played in the majors in his entire career. But I wouldn't write it off like it was a cup of coffee. Kepler is the better overall defender, and he was a huge part of this team.

If anything I'd concede that perhaps I'm overrating Kep a bit, which could be true as it was very exciting to see him finally realize some of that potential. (I really think we're seeing the real Kepler's floor, with his ceiling being a year or two of prime Christian Yelich like seasons where he gets 5th or 6th place in the MVP voting.)

 

Let me ask you this - if you could mix and match 1991 and 2023 into a 26 man roster what would it look like? Here's mine:

SP - Morris, Lopez, Gray, Tapani (Ober and Ryan just didn't show me enough this time around to be in the rotation)

RP - Aguilera, Duran, Pagan, Jax, Bedrosian, Paddack, Varland, Stewart, Thielbar

Starting lineup

1. Gladden LF

2. Knoblauch 2B

3. Puckett CF

4. Lewis 3B

5. Correa SS

6. Kepler/Mack Platoon RF

7. Julien DH

8. Hrbek 1B

9. Harper C

Bench - Castro, Jeffers, Mack, Polanco

Picking the bench was a brutal exercise... I hate to leave Gagne off, but his bat doesn't play as well as Polanco, and although I'm guessing he couldn't handle 2nd or 3rd with ease, I don't see a spot where you take out any infielder for defensive purposes and only Hrbek for a pinch runner. Someone needs a crash course at first base too, probably Jeffers. Castro just proved to be serviceable enough at any position you put him at and his speed absolutely plays in the postseason. Farmer, Wallner, Davis and Gagne were all tough to leave off the roster.  You could argue for Solano over Polanco for coverage at first base, but I don't think that's fair to Jorge. Really the only easy decisions were Vasquez, Sorrento, Ortiz, Brown, Newman, and Stevenson.

Put a healthy Buxton in that mix, then it's bye bye Gladden, move the Kepler/Mack Platoon to LF, and put Buxton in RF unless Kirby volunteers to take right (and you know 1991 Kirby ain't gonna do that!) Then I'd probably make the painful decision to keep Polanco off the roster and put Wallner in so we're not so heavily right handed in the outfield.

Anyone wanna do a thought experiment for 26 man roster made out of the '65, '87, '91, and '23 teams? There one I just did was tough enough lol you have at it though! 

[ICTwin25]

Correa made some great plays in the field, but offensively, he showed up for 1 game. Take away Game 2 vs Houston and in the other 5 games he had 1 RBI, 1 Double, 0 walks, and 0 HR's. The guy earned his contract by hitting homers in the playoffs and there was zero of that this year. I realize I am nitpicking here, but he's getting paid $200M over 6 years, gotta be clutch on defense and offense for the Twins to win

[ashbury]

54 minutes ago, ICTwin25 said:

Take away Game 2 vs Houston and in the other 5 games he had 1 RBI, 1 Double, 0 walks, and 0 HR's. 

That RBI was the only RBI in one of the wins versus Toronto.  In games where runs were mostly at a premium, he was an asset.

[GNess]

Kirby was better than any player on the 2023 roster. Hands down.

Clutch? And we'll see you tomorrow night! 

[USAFChief]

On 10/9/2023 at 3:00 AM, KP34Forever said:

Mack vs. Kepler - Kepler

stop it.

[Road trip]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:17 PM, KP34Forever said:

Just curious on how I've overrated Gladden? And for that matter "by quite a bit"? I didn't make any comments on him other than choosing him over Wallner. OPS+ isn't that only factor. Gladden had speed and was a threat to steal bases, where Wallner doesn't have that reputation. Even if Wallner has comparable speed, he hasn't stolen nearly enough bases to be someone that opposing pitchers are going to consider him a threat on the basepaths. Plus Gladden had postseason experience. Gladden played better defense, though Wallner's arm is considerably better. And Gladden had the attitude that could also spark the team into action. I'm yet to really see that much yet from Wallner.

Same question with regards to Mack? I didn't dive into that comparison either, I just chose Kepler over him. I agree 1991 Mack was phenomenal. But so was Kepler. I don't think I'd consider the entire second half of the season to be a brief period of time. Sure, it's essentially the same amount of games as Royce Lewis has played in the majors in his entire career. But I wouldn't write it off like it was a cup of coffee. Kepler is the better overall defender, and he was a huge part of this team.

 

 

Let me ask you this - if you could mix and match 1991 and 2023 into a 26 man roster what would it look like? Here's mine:

 

In my mind Gladden is one of the hardest Twins to rate on any all time Twins list.  His fiery nature and winning attitude were widely recognized as key components of the '87-91 era.  He was a productive player from 87-89, but then really fell off a cliff at age 32, which isn't surprising for a player with his skill set.  Leg injuries were part of the story, but some of it was likely just the aging process.

Gladdens defense was good early, but he never had much of an arm and his range was merely average by 1990.  He was, as you noted, a threat to steal bases... and to get thrown out a lot.  9 times caught stealing in 24 attempts (1991) is pretty bad.  His speed was diminished at this point.

Gladden is fondly remembered for many reasons.  He scored the winning run in game 7.  He's a big personality, and has been broadcasting Twins games for years now.  He was (I think) an unquestioned leader during that era.  He hustled and played the game "the right way".  But he wasn't a particularly valuable player after 1989.  An astoundingly bad -1.1 WAR in 1990, and still bad .8 WAR in 1991.  I can't ignore that.  And I can't ignore that the Twins were quite content to let him go at the end of the season, despite his contributions to a World Series win.  Nobody much complained, as it was pretty obvious his career was nearing an end.  

If I were to combine the two teams?  I'd put Shane Mack in LF (he started there roughly a third of the time in 1991 so slow-footed Randy Bush could play RF, so this isn't a stretch), and put Kepler in RF.  I'm not sitting Shane Mack behind anyone, including Kepler (who I like...just less).  

[Roaddog]

Hrbek is leaps and bounds better than Kiriloff at this point. He never really got his due, especially defensively. Tapani I would definitely take over Ober, at this point. He was solid. I'd actually takes Jeffers over Harper. Harper could hit, and that's it. 

[Doctor Wu]

Interesting idea to compare the two teams. One thing I like about the current team is the potential going forward. I think the nucleus is much stronger this time around, not to mention some of the prospects we have in the system. 

[jctwins]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:38 AM, Roaddog said:

Hrbek is leaps and bounds better than Kiriloff at this point. He never really got his due, especially defensively. Tapani I would definitely take over Ober, at this point. He was solid. I'd actually takes Jeffers over Harper. Harper could hit, and that's it. 

Players playing the game and not worrying about getting hurt was so much more fun to watch. They were in nowhere nearly as good of shape, but their bodies weren't as overworked either.

[rv78]

9 hours ago, jctwins said:

Players playing the game and not worrying about getting hurt was so much more fun to watch. They were in nowhere nearly as good of shape, but their bodies weren't as overworked either.

HUH? Over-worked? Nearly every starting player in the lineup in 1991 played in more games than the players in 2023. 

[jctwins]

9 hours ago, rv78 said:

HUH? Over-worked? Nearly every starting player in the lineup in 1991 played in more games than the players in 2023. 

Not from time on the field, but way too much working out during and between seasons. That's why they can't be on the field as much. Ridiculous I know.