Today's Strib article/Gomez.

[SweetOne69]

I think the Twins as well as other teams are just trying to teach hitters to go with the pitch. Maybe it is a communication issue.

 

Dozier is a good case. He had early success when pulling the ball. So he starts trying to pull everything. Pitchers notice this and start pitching away and with Dozer trying to pull everything he hits a ton of grounders to the 2B. Until Dozer can adjust and start driving those pitches the other way, it won't change. It's about using all fields to keep pitchers honest.

[Boom Boom]

I know about Ortiz and Ramirez and Braun and PED accusations, but in today's MLB I think you have to give the player the benefit of the doubt until they fail a test. I guarantee you that Gomez has passed multiple PED tests. And as for Ortiz blowing up in Boston because of PEDs, as far as we know Ortiz was juicing before he ever got to Boston.

[Willihammer]

Interesting Q& A with Mark Reynolds in fangraphs yesterday. Sounds like Tito is basically telling him "youre in the lineup to do damage." I think some guys probably do benefit from having their managers back when they look to just unload on a guy. Not Gomez cca. 2008 necessarily. But, maybe Ortiz needed to hear that and probably did hear it from Tito in Boston.

[Mike Sixel]

Kind of like when they tried to change Garza's approach, that had been his secret to his success his whole life, when he got up here......in TB, they told him to pitch the way he wanted to pitch, if I remember correctly. But I might be misremembering that.....

[TheLeviathan]

Kind of like when they tried to change Garza's approach, that had been his secret to his success his whole life, when he got up here......in TB, they told him to pitch the way he wanted to pitch, if I remember correctly. But I might be misremembering that.....

 

And at some level what the Twins are teaching will help make guys better hitters. It's the rigidity about it that I think is troubling. There is part of me that wonders if guys like Vlad Guerrero had gone through the Twins if they had even had a career.

 

Maybe the issue isn't what they are trying to instruct, but rather what they so compulsively try to deconstruct to fit their image.

[Mike Sixel]

Someone above said maybe it is communication.....if so, that's on the coaches. Again, I think it is mostly the players, but I think there has been an attempt to make everyone fit some specific moulds, that maybe they should not.

[Brock Beauchamp]

And at some level what the Twins are teaching will help make guys better hitters. It's the rigidity about it that I think is troubling. There is part of me that wonders if guys like Vlad Guerrero had gone through the Twins if they had even had a career.

 

Maybe the issue isn't what they are trying to instruct, but rather what they so compulsively try to deconstruct to fit their image.

 

But after seeing middling success with Plouffe and the homerun power of Willingham, are they still promoting this "go oppo" strategy with every hitter on the roster?

 

It's possible that they're still steadfastly pounding that idea into hitters' heads but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case anymore.

[Siehbiscuit]

I think that the "Twins Way" is to turn their prospects and players into Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau types. Hit lots of doubles and a few homers but mostly drive the ball to the opposite field gaps. Guys like Willingham and Thome had such a tremendous tool (Power) that the tinkering wasn't done. When you get a guys like Carlos Gomez and David Ortiz and completely ty to "fix" them versus balance his strengths with his areas of development, you will get an unhappy player that struggles to produce.

 

A lot of this IMO is on Gardy. Having coached college (DIII) and HS basketball for 9 years, players function best when they have clearly defined roles. Putting players in positions of strength is important for them psychologically and from a production standpoint. Square peg meet round hole doesn't work. If tweaks need to be made, there needs to be CLEAR understanding that this can be a process (half season, full-season, longer) but that the end result is best for EVERYONE. The player has to buy in too. Sorry for the rant.

[fishedwithhrbie]

I've always had the impression that the Twins were like the woman in a relationship and the player the man....The Twins search and search for that perfect fit...and step one is to set about how to change that man...you dont go shopping for sedans...so you can turn it into a camaro...and you don't go lookng for camaros and try to turn them into sedans...you found exactly what you were looking for...Im all for polishing up a diamond in the rough...but sometimes it seems the twins overestimate thier ailities and the player's ability to change

 

 

 

and in response to someones post above (too lazy to look up who)...the Twins have had management change at all levels...BUT..the philosophy has NEVER changed...and even when the GM stepped down...he was still there...this organization has thought the exactly same way for decades...and that is a problem for any type of business...whether you are playing baseball or selling widgets.

[TheLeviathan]

But after seeing middling success with Plouffe and the homerun power of Willingham, are they still promoting this "go oppo" strategy with every hitter on the roster?

 

It's possible that they're still steadfastly pounding that idea into hitters' heads but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case anymore.

 

Young hitters. When Plouffe sustains that let me know. Willingham is an old dog. My issue is with those players in their first few big league years.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I find this amusing given that Gomez is a poster child for what happens when you rush a guy. 5 tool talent that should have been in AA when he was aquired. Instead, he wasted a ton of development time struggling in the majors and then eventually being benched instead of playing every day against easy talent....

 

He hits his prime and figures things out... just as he wraps up his arb years. There is some wisdom in not rushing prospects.

[ashbury]

I've always had the impression that the

 

I look forward to reading more of your posts after your wife or girlfriend^* finds out you're posting here.

 

/ ^*may they never meet

[edavis0308]

That's a pretty awful way to run a business.

 

"Hey, I'm not sure if Employee X is doing a bad job or not."

 

"Well, the only thing to do is replace him and see how it works out. What's the worst that could happen?"

 

"We could get someone worse. We don't know."

 

"Go ahead, do it anyway. Come on, it'll be fun."

 

Twins fans, trying to run a multi-billion dollar franchise like a lemonade stand since 1961.

 

Can we assume it to be like a banana stand? There's money in the banana stand, you know.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Can we assume it to be like a banana stand? There's money in the banana stand, you know.

 

You burnt down the ****ing banana stand? I said THERE'S ALWAYS MONEY IN THE BANANA STAND.

[ashbury]

You burnt down the ****ing banana stand? I said THERE'S ALWAYS MONEY IN THE BANANA STAND.

 

My wife knows how to make a... no, if I say it I will appear to be a case of arrested development.

[big dog]

I think that the "Twins Way" is to turn their prospects and players into Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau types. Hit lots of doubles and a few homers but mostly drive the ball to the opposite field gaps.

 

I get the point and I more or less agree, but I'm not too sure about your examples. I would like Justin Morneau to go back to the Justin Morneau who was a young player hitting tons of homers. Whatever his problem is now, it isn't hitting the other way, it's grounding out to second.

 

More Joe Mauers would be ok with me too. Even if we had to put up with those pesky doubles.

 

I agree with the previous post about adjustments. Arcia's another example- throw him a fastball, he pulls it, boom. Now pitchers are messing with him, and while he's shown the ability to go the other way with some power, he's got to figure out when it makes the most sense without giving up his chances to pull one out of the park. Hopefully he can do each, when each is appropriate, and be a major force.

[drjim]

Exactly. Some of the responses here are from posters that I honestly think (and I'm using way over the top hyperbole in an attempt to be both amusing and illustrative. Warning!) if Terry Ryan dragged a screaming child into the middle of CF for a 7th inning stretch human sacrifice....they'd be here in minutes to say "Well.....maybe the kid had it coming"

 

Kind of like if Ryan cured cancer there would be people bitching that he also didn't cure heart disease.

 

If you and Mike are truly offended by this behavior perhaps you could start by modeling change yourselves.

[Mike Sixel]

this week alone, I've admitted twice on these boards I was wrong about something. I was praised by a moderator for a balanced approach, and getting a thread back on topic. I have posted that there are two sides, and multiple things causing things to happen and that people should be willing to listen to others and politely consider others' opinions (which is why I admitted twice I was wrong). Not sure what you want, Jim, if that is referring to me.

 

I'm not offended by Ryan's behavior, I disagree with his process. Those are two very, very different things.

[stringer bell]

Love the Arrested Developments references. As far as Gomez goes, he has a great many skills. He still strikes out a lot and swings too hard, but it should be about knowing when to let it go and when to settle for a gapper or an opposite field single. He is certainly getting himself out less now than when he was a Twin (or in his first three years with the Brewers). Just backing off a few percent with two strikes could make him a star or maybe a superstar.

[ThePuck]

this week alone, I've admitted twice on these boards I was wrong about something. I was praised by a moderator for a balanced approach, and getting a thread back on topic. I have posted that there are two sides, and multiple things causing things to happen and that people should be willing to listen to others and politely consider others' opinions (which is why I admitted twice I was wrong). Not sure what you want, Jim, if that is referring to me.

 

I'm not offended by Ryan's behavior, I disagree with his process. Those are two very, very different things.

 

What he wants is for you to agree with Ryan's every move, non-move and decision...

[ThePuck]

I get the point and I more or less agree, but I'm not too sure about your examples. I would like Justin Morneau to go back to the Justin Morneau who was a young player hitting tons of homers. Whatever his problem is now, it isn't hitting the other way, it's grounding out to second.

 

More Joe Mauers would be ok with me too. Even if we had to put up with those pesky doubles.

 

I agree with the previous post about adjustments. Arcia's another example- throw him a fastball, he pulls it, boom. Now pitchers are messing with him, and while he's shown the ability to go the other way with some power, he's got to figure out when it makes the most sense without giving up his chances to pull one out of the park. Hopefully he can do each, when each is appropriate, and be a major force.

 

How many times has Morny grounded to second and how many is too many? I ask for a couple reasons, because I don't know and because he has a .333 BA when hitting ground balls.

[TheLeviathan]

Kind of like if Ryan cured cancer there would be people bitching that he also didn't cure heart disease.

 

If you and Mike are truly offended by this behavior perhaps you could start by modeling change yourselves.

 

Ive offered that in this thread!!!!! I acknowledge the value of what the Twins are teaching and I acknowledge not all things are their fault. But their approach with aggressive young hitters is a problem IMO.

 

If you are trying to box me in eternal pessimism I invite you to the Parmalee thread among many others. I wouldn't count you in the "pro human sacrifice as long as it is Twins endorsed camp" but there re others in this thread I would, so no reason for you to be defensive. You have the capacity to have open minded analysis. (Benson comes to mind)

[drjim]

Ive offered that in this thread!!!!! I acknowledge the value of what the Twins are teaching and I acknowledge not all things are their fault. But their approach with aggressive young hitters is a problem IMO.

 

If you are trying to box me in eternal pessimism I invite you to the Parmalee thread among many others. I wouldn't count you in the "pro human sacrifice as long as it is Twins endorsed camp" but there re others in this thread I would, so no reason for you to be defensive. You have the capacity to have open minded analysis. (Benson comes to mind)

 

 

 

Perhaps we can acknowledge most people here are relatively open minded we just don't agree on several things and probably won't - though discussion can be fun and interesting.

 

The original statement by mike made me chuckle coming from him. And I thought your hilarious example deserved a response in kind.

[big dog]

How many times has Morny grounded to second and how many is too many? I ask for a couple reasons, because I don't know and because he has a .333 BA when hitting ground balls.

 

OK, I'll restate my response as "I want the Morneau who averaged an OPS of 915 over 4.5 years instead of the one who currently has an OPS of 735. I also think, in my personal opinion, he is hitting too many ground balls lately and many of them end up in the glove of the second baseman."

 

None of this is meant as either an indictment or an affirmation of whatever Twins hitting philosophy is taught, taught poorly, or not taught at all. I hope that whatever Bruno is saying is going to help the many current Twins who are struggling.

[drjim]

I also think the idea there are two "camps" here is extremely simplistic. There are certain issues/topics that split people in all sorts of ways. Part of what makes the discussion interesting.

 

On a personal note the only thing I don't think understand is the constant negativity and misery coming from handful of posters (not mike and levi). I understand being upset and critical of moves by the team but I don't understand the misery - it is merely baseball afterall.

[johnnydakota]

I love posts like this. If the player struggles it is the Twins fault but if he does well they had nothing to do with it.

 

Well gardy is on record , taking credit for Gomez ....

[Mike Sixel]

I have occassionally given into being negative week after week after week. Sometimes you get caught up in an emotion, and a direction to your thoughts. As I've had people tell me I do that, I've learned a lot about myself and how my mind can cause my own unhappiness. As I've read some Buddhist writings, and a lot of yoga stuff, I've learned a lot about taking a break from a negative train of thought. Just. Stop. For awhile. If you can learn to take a break, you can stop your mind from creating a self-feeding loop of unhappiness. I'm not perfect at it, I've ranted here a few times and looked back and thought "wth was I thinking". Hopefully I've decreased that over time.......

 

Other people, I hope they learn to take a breath every once in a while, and to see both the good and the bad in life/twins/whatever they are thinking about. Really, none of this matters to me in the real world, but sometimes I forget that, and actually do get worked up about the Twins, or posters' thoughts. Eventually I catch myself, and breathe again.......I'm hoping this week is one of those where I am catching myself and stopping.

 

*edit....this was in response to the comment from jim not understanding how people can be negative all the time. I understand how it happens, that's all this post was. nothing more or less than that.

[jokin]

I love posts like this. If the player struggles it is the Twins fault but if he does well they had nothing to do with it.

 

All-or-none Jim strikes again.

 

There's little that needs to be added here to shut down this noise, the results (and former players) "speak" for itself/themselves.

[jokin]

I have occassionally given into being negative week after week after week. Sometimes you get caught up in an emotion, and a direction to your thoughts. As I've had people tell me I do that, I've learned a lot about myself and how my mind can cause my own unhappiness. As I've read some Buddhist writings, and a lot of yoga stuff, I've learned a lot about taking a break from a negative train of thought. Just. Stop. For awhile. If you can learn to take a break, you can stop your mind from creating a self-feeding loop of unhappiness. I'm not perfect at it, I've ranted here a few times and looked back and thought "wth was I thinking". Hopefully I've decreased that over time.......

 

Other people, I hope they learn to take a breath every once in a while, and to see both the good and the bad in life/twins/whatever they are thinking about. Really, none of this matters to me in the real world, but sometimes I forget that, and actually do get worked up about the Twins, or posters' thoughts. Eventually I catch myself, and breathe again.......I'm hoping this week is one of those where I am catching myself and stopping.

 

No need to get overly metaphysical. Negativity as a reaction to these 2 and 1/3 seasons of utter futility- and ineptitude- and deceptiiveness on the part of management- is normal, to be expected- and healthy. I think you do-, and I know I do-, try to find and comment on positive things surrounding this ball club whenever we can, that's also healthy.

[Willihammer]

I just wish the Twins had at least waited till David Ortiz had gotten expensive before parting ways, instead of releasing him at 26 because he liked to wrap his pinky under the handle.