Today's Strib article/Gomez.

[Mr. Brooks]

That now makes at least 3 former Twins who have publicly pointed out the Twins hitting "approach" as holding back their talents. Ortiz, Hardy, and Gomez.

I have 2 questions.

 

1) If Gomez sustains his success, will the Twins realize that trying to force square pegs into round holes doesn't work out, and start to change their philosophy? Or are they too stubborn, and we are stuck with it barring major regime overhaul?

 

2) Could this same problem be contributing to the struggles of most of our young hitters on this roster?

 

EDIT:

Make that 3 questions.

 

3) Anyone think there is a possibility that Benson suffered from the same problem?

Maybe the Twins tried to change who he was at the plate (go the other way, slap the ball on the ground, etc.), and it screwed up his swing?

I will be interested to see what happens in Texas if they tell him to just go up there and pull the ball.

[TheLeviathan]

Oof, those comments are very thinly veiled. Hard not to see how that approach is really suffocating for many hitters too.

[Mike Sixel]

coincidence, it can't be the Twins, they are infallible.

[JB_Iowa]

Am I the only one who wonders if the only thing ManRam injected was info into Gomez' brain???

 

I know I'm a cynic but it's hard for me to ignore Braun's presence on the Brewers and Gomez getting advice from Ramirez.

[Mike Sixel]

Ya, it couldn't be that the Twins aren't good at their jobs......it has to be something else.

[drjim]

I don't really buy this.

 

Ortiz took off in Boston as soon as he did what the Twins wanted him to do. And does anyone remember watching Gomez as a Twin and think that he didn't swing hard enough?

[jokin]

I don't really buy this.

 

Ortiz took off in Boston as soon as he did what the Twins wanted him to do. And does anyone remember watching Gomez as a Twin and think that he didn't swing hard enough?

 

But...how many ex-Twins are publicly attributing at least some of their current success to the foundational approaches to hitting learned by following "The Twins Way"?...and how many more are willing to publicly berate that "Way"?

[TheLeviathan]

I don't really buy this.

 

Ortiz took off in Boston as soon as he did what the Twins wanted him to do. And does anyone remember watching Gomez as a Twin and think that he didn't swing hard enough?

 

Sometimes it's about how it's communicated, not what. The Twins publicly talk about "hit it on the ground" all the time - if aggression is part of your game, that would have to screw with your mental approach at the plate.

 

The problem with what the Twins are communicating to some players is that it sounds like they don't want them to turn on pitches and pound them. Ortiz and Gomez both clearly took that away from their coaching. That's a problem.

[Brad Swanson]

Sometimes it's about how it's communicated, not what. The Twins publicly talk about "hit it on the ground" all the time - if aggression is part of your game, that would have to screw with your mental approach at the plate.

 

The problem with what the Twins are communicating to some players is that it sounds like they don't want them to turn on pitches and pound them. Ortiz and Gomez both clearly took that away from their coaching. That's a problem.

 

This is a really good point. A player might be told "we want you to learn to take the ball the other way" but they might hear "we want you to ALWAYS take the ball the other way." They might perceive that the organization feels their approach is "wrong" but the Twins just want them to practice a new skill. If the Twins don't make it clear that this is the case, it really is their fault. You can't punish the learner.

 

I'd say it is at least possible that the Twins want their hitters to become more well-rounded, but don't make that point very clear. Of course then it isn't a philosophy issue but more of a teaching issue. Either way kind of sucks. Hopefully these are just isolated cases.

[Badsmerf]

Hopefully these are just isolated cases.

Yeah.....

[gil4]

If Gomez sustains his success, will the Twins realize that trying to force square pegs into round holes doesn't work out

 

Gomez was with the Twins for 2 years. After 3 seasons in Milwaukee with basically the same stats as he had in Minnesota, he suddenly, at age 27, puts together the start of what could be a career year. Now all of his struggles for the past 5 years are the Twins' fault? Maybe he was still doing things the Mets way.

[gunnarthor]

Ortiz was a PED thing. Hardy blamed the medical staff and pointedly stuck up for Vavra. Gil4 hits it right on the head with Gomez. And, no, Benson's problems are more related to his inability to hit at AAA or above.

 

But under the logic of this post, shouldn't the Twins get credit for Willingham and Doumit's career highs in HR?

[clutterheart]

Ortiz was not a PED thing. He always had power but stayed healthy, had good hitters who get on base in front of him and played in Fenway.

[clutterheart]

I think blaming the Twins coaches is kind of ridiculous.

It's not like Gomez took off as soon he left the Twins. My memory says he was the 4th outfielder for a year or two. He always had big tools and it's not terribly surprising that as he hits his peak years he having success.

[jokin]

Ortiz was a PED thing. Hardy blamed the medical staff and pointedly stuck up for Vavra. Gil4 hits it right on the head with Gomez. And, no, Benson's problems are more related to his inability to hit at AAA or above.

 

But under the logic of this post, shouldn't the Twins get credit for Willingham and Doumit's career highs in HR?

 

No. The Twins don't tinker too much with established players, it's the younger up-and-comers who are getting the "message" as to the "acceptable" Twins approach to hitting.

[gunnarthor]

No. The Twins don't tinker too much with established players, it's the younger up-and-comers who are getting the "message" as to the "acceptable" Twins approach to hitting.

 

Under this logic, wasn't Hardy already an established player, then?

[TheLeviathan]

Under this logic, wasn't Hardy already an established player, then?

 

Well yeah but you brought up Hardy not anyone else.

 

THe point is that the Twins stunted his growth as a hitter. THat he didn't turn it around immediately only indicates that coaching lingered. So if you want to argue Milwaukee made similar mistakes....fine but that doesn't take the Twins off the hook. Again it'sz about the poor message they are sending.

[drjim]

Hardy was demoted to AAA the season before the Twins got him. Maybe the Twins turned his career around (before foolishly dumping him for nothing).

[drjim]

No. The Twins don't tinker too much with established players, it's the younger up-and-comers who are getting the "message" as to the "acceptable" Twins approach to hitting.

 

I love posts like this. If the player struggles it is the Twins fault but if he does well they had nothing to do with it.

[Mike Sixel]

And if the players are bad, it is never the coaches or FO fault, it is always on the palyers....that's how this thread is reading. The Twins had ZERO culpability here?.....come one, it has to be some of both, doesn't it?

[Craig Arko]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same Carlos Gomez who would often fall over at the plate while swinging and missing so hard? Maturity at the plate seems more like it's been the answer for him.

 

Having said that, I do think he was horribly rushed into the big league lineup with the Twins. Some more time in the minors, and maybe he develops that maturity for this organization.

[drjim]

And if the players are bad, it is never the coaches or FO fault, it is always on the palyers....that's how this thread is reading. The Twins had ZERO culpability here?.....come one, it has to be some of both, doesn't it?

 

Yes both but I generally give most credit good or bad to the players for their performance.

 

The front office deserves a lot of blame for dumping these guys too early.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think there's some merit to complaints about the Twins' philosophy of "going the other way".

 

On the other hand, I think many of those complaints are outdated, especially in the case of Ortiz. He left the team a decade ago and we've seen management changes at every level of the system.

 

On the third hand(?), if Gomez only broke out because he left the Twins, why'd it take him over two seasons to turn into a decent hitter and three seasons to turn into an above-average hitter?

 

Methinks it has a lot more to do physical maturation and how Gomez was rushed by the Mets and later, the Twins, than it does any failing in the Twins' approach (which absolutely has its flaws, I just think this is a pretty bad example).

 

In my opinion, it all boils down to JJ Hardy.

[Mike Sixel]

Yes both but I generally give most credit good or bad to the players for their performance.

 

The front office deserves a lot of blame for dumping these guys too early.

 

Agree with all of this, it is mostly on the players, and it is on the FO for how the players were acquired and dealt. But if the coaches have no effect, good or bad, what is their role?

 

To me, the frustrating part of the conversation is that some people (on both sides) can't see that there are multiple things at play here, and that people feel this need to protect their stance, and are unwilling to even consider that someone else might be right.

[big dog]

To me, the frustrating part of the conversation is that some people (on both sides) can't see that there are multiple things at play here, and that people feel this need to protect their stance, and are unwilling to even consider that someone else might be right.

 

Absolutely, and I would expand this to say "the frustrating part of most conversations about the front office".

 

The other point here is that this is to some degree cherry-picking; every organization has players who thrive under different systems. In Hardy's case, he went from a really good hitter with the Brewers to a complete wreck; he improved with the Twins, and he did even better with the Orioles (although I still don't think he's quite the hitting god that some do). I don't think the Twins exactly destroyed him. Ortiz didn't sign with Boston until late in the winter, after being cut early by the Twins- he was not exactly seen as a potential superstar.

 

I laughed (in a good way) at the previous comment about Gomez swinging so hard he fell down. If there's anyone who wasn't ruined by trying to hit the other way, it was Carlos. The biggest adjustment I remember the Twins making is trying to get him to bunt more, which seemed like a good idea when he was a relatively skinny, really fast guy who struck out a lot.

 

Let's also recall that the Twins have a new hitting coach who pulled the ball a lot as a player. Rehashing players from 4+ years ago doesn't seem like a particularly current topic.

[Crackin' Wax]

To me, the "Twins Way" of hitting absolutely benefits weak hitters and base runners. Hit the ball in a gap the other way and run like hell. It's as if the Twins fully expect that they will never EVER be a power hitting team (with the exception of '09 and '10, apparently) and are in a constant state of trying to recapture the piranha magic of nearly a decade ago. Power hitters are expensive, weak hitters are a dime a dozen and the Pohlads and Ryan aren't exactly known as big spenders. Trying to take advantage of Gomez' speed on the base paths as opposed to tapping into his potential power was, to me, the smart thing to do. Trying to teach younger hitters how to be professional hitters and not try to rip the cover off the ball in each at bat also seems smart. However, properly scouting and profiling ALL of your players instead of forcing to do something they are unable to do is even smarter.

[fairweather]

Only 1 way to prove if the coaches and their philosophies are the problem, make a change to differently minded staff and see what happens. Will it ever happen? NO!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Only 1 way to prove if the coaches and their philosophies are the problem, make a change to differently minded staff and see what happens. Will it ever happen? NO!

 

That's a pretty awful way to run a business.

 

"Hey, I'm not sure if Employee X is doing a bad job or not."

 

"Well, the only thing to do is replace him and see how it works out. What's the worst that could happen?"

 

"We could get someone worse. We don't know."

 

"Go ahead, do it anyway. Come on, it'll be fun."

 

Twins fans, trying to run a multi-billion dollar franchise like a lemonade stand since 1961.

[fairweather]

If they didn't try and make Thome hit the ball the other way then why make Plouffe? Plouffe is a dead pull hitter and if the Twins would stop trying to perfect his swing he'd hit a lot more HR's and consequently make a lot more money in his career. Part of this use the whole field crap is an attempt to keep HR numbers down so none ofthe players think they worth a zillion dollars in FA. Same with strike outs. Twins don't want their pitchers to get stike outs at a high clip cause then they'll want big money in arb and FA. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP

[TheLeviathan]

To me, the frustrating part of the conversation is that some people (on both sides) can't see that there are multiple things at play here, and that people feel this need to protect their stance, and are unwilling to even consider that someone else might be right.

 

Exactly. Some of the responses here are from posters that I honestly think (and I'm using way over the top hyperbole in an attempt to be both amusing and illustrative. Warning!) if Terry Ryan dragged a screaming child into the middle of CF for a 7th inning stretch human sacrifice....they'd be here in minutes to say "Well.....maybe the kid had it coming"

 

I'm not saying the Twins are 100% culpable, but Gomez clearly feels like it was better for him to get away from their coaching. We hear it every time someone with speed gets to the big leagues - stop hitting it hard and start hitting it on the ground. They did it with Revere too. (Who, by the way, is a very good line drive hitter when he's using that approach)

 

One can be fast and still hit the ball on the screws, but the Twins rhetoric on this has long been to deny that or teach young players the opposite. I know they are trying to make the hitter more complete, but you don't want to take away all of their positives in their approach just to fit a mantra.