Baldelli and Gray

[TwinsDr2021]

4 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Regarding my amazing comment is no one was  expected this type of performance out of him at the beginning of the season,  how he is doing is amazing.  Considering we could get 2 years of service and another high draft pick for trading Chase Petty is an excellent outcome,  sorry you don't like my optimism.   

Lets look at the Twins pitchers.  Pablo Lopez is averaging an extra 2 outs an inning,  Joe Ryan an extra out.  To me this isn't a statistically big deal. In comparison to other Twins pitchers this is about the amount of innings Twins management will allow them to pitch.   For the most part you are arguing about team philosophies.   

I am very happy with the way Gray has pitched.  Of the starting pitchers you are considering he has given up the least amount of home runs,  has one one of the lowest ERA,  leads the league or tied for WAR for just pitching.  If you want to give Gray away be my guest.  He has had a hell of a season so far.  Maybe he is due for some regression.  I guess statistically showing that other publications have Gray 6th tends to lead credibility to my take.  The fact you so vehemently want to attack it seems not only anti Twin but also anti Sonny Gray.  I understand some of the points you are making,  however its not like what other are thinking of Sonny Gray is just pie in the sky and dreams.  

I think we are both fairly steadfast in our positions,  no need for me to continue this discussion after this post.  

 

So you changed the topic and projected something on me I never said, ever! He is have a really good season, the twins have gotten quite a bit out of the trade and maybe another draft pick. I also have been pretty happy with Gray this year, could I be more happy of course. Never said I wanted to give Gray away, not even sure how that comes to ones mind, I am not arguing he is a bad pitcher or for that matter even just an average pitcher. He is a good to better than good pitcher this year, just not elite based on the numbers. Not sure how saying that is anti Gray or anti Twin in any way.

That would be like somebody saying Miranda is the top rookie of the year candidate last year and me pointing out he probably isn't even in the top 3 and the person responding with you are anti - Miranda and the Twins.

I am not arguing about the team philosophies at all I am comparing stats against other pitchers, does Gray or any other pitcher get extra credit for things they haven't done because of the Twins philosophy?

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

16 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So you changed the topic and projected something on me I never said, ever! He is have a really good season, the twins have gotten quite a bit out of the trade and maybe another draft pick. I also have been pretty happy with Gray this year, could I be more happy of course. Never said I wanted to give Gray away, not even sure how that comes to ones mind, I am not arguing he is a bad pitcher or for that matter even just an average pitcher. He is a good to better than good pitcher this year, just not elite based on the numbers. Not sure how saying that is anti Gray or anti Twin in any way.

That would be like somebody saying Miranda is the top rookie of the year candidate last year and me pointing out he probably isn't even in the top 3 and the person responding with you are anti - Miranda and the Twins.

I am not arguing about the team philosophies at all I am comparing stats against other pitchers, does Gray or any other pitcher get extra credit for things they haven't done because of the Twins philosophy?

Just for clarification,  you changed the subject on my amazing comment.  That is what I always intended it to infer.   

You also stated Gray isn't in your top 12 pitchers for the year.   Myself,  other publications, and some here think he is based higher.  Yes its statistical analysis and what you value.  

Yes my anti-Twin, anti-Gray take is slight hyperbole, but you want to ignore ERA and WAR while magnifying SO, IP, and WHIP.   You seem to want to devalue him against a high strike out pitcher like Cole, when he will never again be that type of pitcher.  

There is some discussion on how team philosophies effect stats,  even still ultimately a pitcher is judged on how many runs do they allow across the plate and currently he has and ERA+ of 178.   

I wish you well,  keep cheering on the Twins,  and maybe think  Gray is maybe in the top 8 discussion and deserving of an all-star appearance :).   

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sonny Gray has been to a couple all star games. He might rather have the four day vacation this year, not sure. 

[Craig Arko]

2 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Sonny Gray has been to a couple all star games. He might rather have the four day vacation this year, not sure. 

Which is probably for the best, since it seems a fair guess that either Ryan or Duran (or both) will represent the Twins.

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Sonny Gray has been to a couple all star games. He might rather have the four day vacation this year, not sure. 

With his health track record, I think I'd rather him have the 4 day vacation this year.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

We can't expect every reliever to have a good day every time either. Bad days and struggles happen for them too. If you're going to go easy on Gray by saying no more than he "didn't have it last night" then treat the relievers the same way.

Except that our BP is a weak link. They have given up quite a bit over the course of the season. And the FO, during the off-season, commented that they weren't going to spend anytime on the BP. The construction is a weak link outside of 2-3 relievers than can be relied upon more than not. I agree that sometimes the BP just doesn't have it ... but right now, I'm being generous to say their have it-don't is a 50-50 crapshoot, and BPs for a team hoping to make it to the playoffs and beyond, has to have better. It's not that way with the starters on our team. And ... you are comparing apples to oranges here, imo.

[TwinsDr2021]

17 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

There is some discussion on how team philosophies effect stats,  even still ultimately a pitcher is judged on how many runs do they allow across the plate and currently he has and ERA+ of 178.   

I wish you well,  keep cheering on the Twins,  and maybe think  Gray is maybe in the top 8 discussion and deserving of an all-star appearance :).   

Wish you well as well, I think runs allowed also needs to be combined with the amount of innings, and I agree Gray could be in the discussion of being around the 8th best starter in the American league, personally for me is closer to 12th but 12th is still really, really good. I am in the boat that wants one of my best pitchers to pitch more innings which means lesser relief pitchers pitching.

[Montdak]

Beyond last night, our manager has hurt the team bad several times with a quick hook.  And at the drop of a hat.  Guy’s mowing ‘em down multiple innings would seem to have multiple pitches left and he’s jerked after one walk or two hits.  It’s like our manager wants to be part of the action and play the part of the just at the right time genius only it hasn’t been repeatedly. Last night Sonny did lose control bad but got out with minimum damage and should have been allowed to come back out and settle down and qualify for the win.

[SwainZag]

29 minutes ago, Montdak said:

Beyond last night, our manager has hurt the team bad several times with a quick hook.  And at the drop of a hat.  Guy’s mowing ‘em down multiple innings would seem to have multiple pitches left and he’s jerked after one walk or two hits.  It’s like our manager wants to be part of the action and play the part of the just at the right time genius only it hasn’t been repeatedly. Last night Sonny did lose control bad but got out with minimum damage and should have been allowed to come back out and settle down and qualify for the win.

I believe the Twins starters average the most innings per start in the majors this year.  Can you point out the several times Rocco has pulled starters too early this year?

It's easy to say Sonny would "settle down" and qualify for the win last night.  He hadn't located pitches all night, what's to think that after 80 pitches he was going to find it?  

Hindsight is so 20/20 on this topic as well.  Pull a guy after 6 shutout innings and 87 pitches and the bullpen does their job?  Manager is a genius.  Leave a guy in after 6 shutout innings and promptly gives up a walk, hit and a go ahead 3 run homer?  Manager is an idiot.  

[chpettit19]

35 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

I believe the Twins starters average the most innings per start in the majors this year.  Can you point out the several times Rocco has pulled starters too early this year?

It's easy to say Sonny would "settle down" and qualify for the win last night.  He hadn't located pitches all night, what's to think that after 80 pitches he was going to find it?  

Hindsight is so 20/20 on this topic as well.  Pull a guy after 6 shutout innings and 87 pitches and the bullpen does their job?  Manager is a genius.  Leave a guy in after 6 shutout innings and promptly gives up a walk, hit and a go ahead 3 run homer?  Manager is an idiot.  

They're actually 3rd. Houston and Texas are at 5.7. Twins are at a measly 5.6. According to B-R at least.

[Major League Ready]

7 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

It's fascinating to see how people read into insanely small glimpses of teammate, or player manager, interactions. We've had 2 public spats between Rocco and Sonny over a season and a half, and we are discussing how well they get along? People have been throwing out the idea that Sonny is going to demand a trade since last year. Spent all offseason saying it was going to happen because he hates Rocco. He has 1 disagreement with Rocco in his first 14 starts in 2023 and people are back on the "he's going to demand a trade!" bus.

If Gray hated Rocco half as much as people seem to think he does, why is he waiting? Why haven't these trade demands come? Why didn't he make the demand in his presser last night? Could this be a little projection? Fans dislike Rocco. Fans have a perception that Rocco has too quick of a hook, and dislike it. Fans want him replaced. Fans see Gray get upset twice and decide it's just obvious that he feels the same way they do and he wants to get as far away from Rocco as possible. Fascinating.

Remember how insistent some people were that Buxton would never resign here either.  

[jkcarew]

I was totally with Gray when he was taking this stance publicly last season/off-season. And I think Baldelli has actually responded some in this regard in 2023.

But it’s a two way street, and it’s not solely about results…it can also be about how inefficient you’re being, mechanics, etc. When Gray is off (which hasn’t been often this year), he’s horrifically inefficient…often nibbling until the count is full or nearly so, constantly trying to get batters to chase until he finally is forced to throw something over the plate. Rocco’s let him run a few times this year under those circumstances, this time he didn’t.

I also remember a game not long ago where Gray lost it (out of nowhere, when cruising) so fast that a decent lead was lost before Rocco got a reliever into the game.

I’ve been a big critic of Rocco’s bullpen management, but this instance doesn’t really get me worked up.

 

[Cris E]

Rocco lets starters go when they are rolling, and he pulls guys that are struggling or hurt.  Sonny was rolling in April and got all the inning he wanted but he was poor last night and got the 2022 hook. No issues except from the guy with a competitive streak deep enough to make it to the majors, Shocker.

 

[TopTwinsFan]

Any child could tell the front office doesn't understand something basic about sports, no less how to set up a bullpen. They re-signed a player who ensures epic failure in any important spot when they re-signed Pagan and added very little to a weak spot (the bullpen) anyone could see from Mars. Add the fact Baldelli struggles to understand how to manage a bullpen and it is a buzz kill on the 2023 season.

I know it wont happen but keep hoping we get a real manager who understands how to manage men. The fo cant be addressed til the off season. We could get a great manager now. Baldelli ensures failure when it matters. Years of track record.

[Boswell]

14 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

 I think this is much ado about 2 complaints in 38 starts.

Well, we don’t really know about how many private complaints and frustrations have been voiced, either. 😜
 

I really don’t think Baldelli is a “player’s manager.”   He seems to have a sort of emotional detachment to most things, before some switch gets tripped and he flips out.   Just “Mr. Cool” until he turns into a Frankenstein, getting defensive and testy about his decisions.  Has anyone ever really stated “yeah, I love playing for Rocco?”

The extended argument in the dugout was bush league.  Baldelli was all into Gray’s space and wouldn’t let it go.  Save the posturing for after the game - or away from the cameras.  
 

Yep, the chances of Gray being back in 2024 are slim to none, with Slim getting on the railroad out of town. 

[terrydactyls]

A new drama is coming soon to the Netflix - Baldelli and Gray.  A containment-specialist asset battles against not only the forces of evil, but also against his own handler.  How long will his bull dog attitude keep him on the job before the by-the-book management ships him off to some hell hole (Oakland or Kansas City perhaps)?  Tune in every five or six days to find out.

[NotAboutWinning]

And what damage did that dugout confrontation do to the attitude of the rest of the team? They certainly aren't looking like a relaxed, confident bunch of teammates!

[chpettit19]

8 hours ago, Boswell said:

Well, we don’t really know about how many private complaints and frustrations have been voiced, either. 😜
 

I really don’t think Baldelli is a “player’s manager.”   He seems to have a sort of emotional detachment to most things, before some switch gets tripped and he flips out.   Just “Mr. Cool” until he turns into a Frankenstein, getting defensive and testy about his decisions.  Has anyone ever really stated “yeah, I love playing for Rocco?”

The extended argument in the dugout was bush league.  Baldelli was all into Gray’s space and wouldn’t let it go.  Save the posturing for after the game - or away from the cameras.  
 

Yep, the chances of Gray being back in 2024 are slim to none, with Slim getting on the railroad out of town. 

You're kind of proving my overall point here. You even start by saying you don't actually know about any private complaints before going on to fill in the gaps however you choose. 

And, actually, Rocco, and the clubhouse atmosphere he creates, has been praised by many on their way out the door. Byron Buxton fought to stay here, and get a no trade clause. Nelson Cruz wanted to come back, and had great things to say about Rocco and the team. Luis Arraez was sad to go. Correa isn't shy about his feelings on things, and I'm sure it'd come out pretty quick if he didn't like Rocco. Shoemaker is the only guy who left and really had bad things to say, but that doesn't mean there weren't more, or that Rocco is great or anything. 

The fact is we don't really know anything about the clubhouse outside of reports. But people can make whatever assumptions they want about it. Typically their assumptions match their personal feelings on Rocco, and they project their feelings onto the players in the clubhouse. Sonny clearly isn't shy. If he were so upset why hasn't he demanded a trade, or actually blasted Rocco in the media?

I agree Sonny is likely gone after the year, but I'm not convinced it's a 1 sided thing all about Rocco by any means. The Twins likely don't want to pay him what he's going to get in the market. They'll get a pick that's likely 10 or fewer spots lower in the draft than they used to take Petty. They'll be thrilled. But I know people will believe him leaving was some indictment of Rocco. So be it. I don't think Rocco's great, and won't shed a tear if he's fired, but I'm not going to pretend I really know what he's like in the clubhouse.

[In My La Z boy]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're kind of proving my overall point here. You even start by saying you don't actually know about any private complaints before going on to fill in the gaps however you choose. 

And, actually, Rocco, and the clubhouse atmosphere he creates, has been praised by many on their way out the door. Byron Buxton fought to stay here, and get a no trade clause. Nelson Cruz wanted to come back, and had great things to say about Rocco and the team. Luis Arraez was sad to go. Correa isn't shy about his feelings on things, and I'm sure it'd come out pretty quick if he didn't like Rocco. Shoemaker is the only guy who left and really had bad things to say, but that doesn't mean there weren't more, or that Rocco is great or anything. 

The fact is we don't really know anything about the clubhouse outside of reports. But people can make whatever assumptions they want about it. Typically their assumptions match their personal feelings on Rocco, and they project their feelings onto the players in the clubhouse. Sonny clearly isn't shy. If he were so upset why hasn't he demanded a trade, or actually blasted Rocco in the media?

I agree Sonny is likely gone after the year, but I'm not convinced it's a 1 sided thing all about Rocco by any means. The Twins likely don't want to pay him what he's going to get in the market. They'll get a pick that's likely 10 or fewer spots lower in the draft than they used to take Petty. They'll be thrilled. But I know people will believe him leaving was some indictment of Rocco. So be it. I don't think Rocco's great, and won't shed a tear if he's fired, but I'm not going to pretend I really know what he's like in the clubhouse.

Good take here. Hindsight is easy, but with that in mind I have 3 comments. This was our 1st game in a stretch of 8 in a row. Gray had the lead, and had another 20-30 pitches left to 100. Gray is a veteran and is currently having above average success. 

For those 3 reasons he gets to start the 5th in my book. 

I agree Rocco seems to be a great clubhouse manager. I wish the games were played in the clubhouse. During the games I find myself questioning his decisions often. Either he is not allowed to utilize instincts, or he doesn't have good ones, or his instincts are whatever the analytics say.

[chpettit19]

50 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

Good take here. Hindsight is easy, but with that in mind I have 3 comments. This was our 1st game in a stretch of 8 in a row. Gray had the lead, and had another 20-30 pitches left to 100. Gray is a veteran and is currently having above average success. 

For those 3 reasons he gets to start the 5th in my book. 

I agree Rocco seems to be a great clubhouse manager. I wish the games were played in the clubhouse. During the games I find myself questioning his decisions often. Either he is not allowed to utilize instincts, or he doesn't have good ones, or his instincts are whatever the analytics say.

Oh, I would've let Gray go out for the 5th. And I definitely don't think Rocco is great in game. But I also don't think managers matter much so I don't really give too many strong takes on them. I'm just fascinated by how confident people are that they know what relationships are like based on 5 to 10 second clips of interactions in the middle of games once a year. I argue with people I love, respect, and get along with all the time. 2 arguments in 2 years sounds like a healthy relationship to me.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Oh, I would've let Gray go out for the 5th. And I definitely don't think Rocco is great in game. But I also don't think managers matter much so I don't really give too many strong takes on them. I'm just fascinated by how confident people are that they know what relationships are like based on 5 to 10 second clips of interactions in the middle of games once a year. I argue with people I love, respect, and get along with all the time. 2 arguments in 2 years sounds like a healthy relationship to me.

If so, that explains a lot! Thank you! 🤣

[ashbury]

4 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

management ships him off to some hell hole (Oakland or Kansas City perhaps)? 

Oakland? He's been-there-done-that.

As for punishing him, I believe a trade negates the possibility of a draft pick being attached to him in free agency.  That in turn increases his value to the team that signs him, which in turn increases the salary offers.  Bring it on, he'll say.   They can trade him to Toledo for all he cares.

No, the team might "punish" him by keeping him, knowing he still needs to pitch at a high level in order to make money in free agency, and they'll slap a Qualifying Offer on him ($20M) which at his age he probably won't want to accept while seeking a bigger multi-year payday.  It's probably not the money, per se, for him, but his legacy as a big time pitcher - he might have a $100M career earnings threshold he wants to exceed, I don't pretend to know exactly how a person thinks when at that level of achievement.

[insagt1]

some here might be ancient enough (like me!) to remember the fightin' A's of the 70's...you know the team that won 3 straight world series! They seemed to hate each other and their owner, the owner hated them, and it was a circus. 3 world series rings. Guess you just never know, huh. (sidenote: I attended one of those WS games with my navy buddies...walked up to the window day of the game and bought tickets for around $10 bucks or so...maybe a tad more)

Twins pen is pretty bad in long relief. If Bass is out there, maybe give him a shot? I think the Jays and MLB blew that whole 'issue' way out of proportion. Guy said some things, was told uh-uh and he apologized (probably didnt mean it either) The world didn't end, nor should it have. Baseball stick to baseball. Pitch, catch, throw, hit, field...fans cheer or boo, have a dog and a brew and go to games to get away from the stress of the world, not add on to it.

 

[terrydactyls]

3 hours ago, ashbury said:

Oakland? He's been-there-done-that.

As for punishing him, I believe a trade negates the possibility of a draft pick being attached to him in free agency.  That in turn increases his value to the team that signs him, which in turn increases the salary offers.  Bring it on, he'll say.   They can trade him to Toledo for all he cares.

No, the team might "punish" him by keeping him, knowing he still needs to pitch at a high level in order to make money in free agency, and they'll slap a Qualifying Offer on him ($20M) which at his age he probably won't want to accept while seeking a bigger multi-year payday.  It's probably not the money, per se, for him, but his legacy as a big time pitcher - he might have a $100M career earnings threshold he wants to exceed, I don't pretend to know exactly how a person thinks when at that level of achievement.

It was just sarcasm - not a call for a trade.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

It was just sarcasm - not a call for a trade.

"A new drama is coming soon to the Netflix"?  Yeah, I kinda picked up on that note.  Still, you raised an angle I thought worth exploring - what the team will do at the deadline is an evergreen topic and Gray's name keeps being speculated here.  And the OP and thread are about Gray so this was as good a place as any.