Game Thread x2: Twins @ Guardians, Noon:10 and 6:10 CT

[rwilfong86]

15 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Just cut Pagan already. There’s no point in continuing this farce. 

They've gotta admit the trade was a loss and eat crow and move on. This is getting ridiculous, losing winnable games every week

[Danchat]

4 minutes ago, big dog said:

I know Pagan doesn’t have 10 blown saves, but it sure feels like it. 

He has 5, plus last Wednesday's game where he got credit for a hold despite blowing a 10-7 lead (Jax let in his runners, so he takes the blame in the box score).

[wsnydes]

Just now, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Yeah, but they only scored 2 runs

Also a factor.

[mrtwinsfan]

Which team looks like a winner ?????    

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Is anyone going to watch the postgame show? Not me. I'm going for a walk. This just isn't emotionally healthy. 

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I’d rather him in the 9th, but if the other option is Emilio pagan for the 8th, then I want him for that too.

Literally how many more times does pagan have to fail in the 8/9 innings until he stops getting those innings.

I don't like Pagan either, but the answer isn't "just throw Duran every late inning of every close game." You want Duran as the closer so you have to deal with lesser pitchers who shouldn't be pitching late game, high leverage innings. That's how it works.

[CRF]

THAT'S what a closer does. We've got a 100 mph guy that can do that same thing, but the Roc won't use him that way. With leads, good teams (and smart managers) have guys that pitch specific innings...most of the time. To protect the lead. Obviously, there are exceptions that occur at times. I'm talking 7th, 8th, and 9th inning guys. Why can't we do that kind of thing? Yeah, we don't have great pen guys like some teams, but Jax is fine, and we know what Duran can do. So, someone gets the 7th, Jax gets the 8th, and Duran gets the 9th. It's not rocket science. Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth. 

[Aggies7]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

I don't like Pagan either, but the answer isn't "just throw Duran every late inning of every close game." You want Duran as the closer so you have to deal with lesser pitchers who shouldn't be pitching late game, high leverage innings. That's how it works.

Didn’t say that was the answer. There are better options than EP for the 8th. One was used in the 7th. There aren’t many worse options than him for that role. Duffey and Cotton probably.

[SwainZag]

3 minutes ago, mrtwinsfan said:

Which team looks like a winner ?????    

Well Twins have more wins.  They won bigger last night.  Guardians took advantage of Twins mistakes this afternoon, Twins squandered a lot of opportunities.  

[wsnydes]

Just now, SwainZag said:

Well Twins have more wins.  They won bigger last night.  Guardians took advantage of Twins mistakes this afternoon, Twins squandered a lot of opportunities.  

Also, one is leading the division and the other is not.

[bighat]

Another game against the Guardians where the Twins got a big hit late from a star player, only to have the bullpen completely fold.

Correa got nailed on the foot the first pitch he saw, fought through the pain and homered to give the Twins the lead late in the ballgame. He's got to be just fuming at Pagan right now.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Didn’t say that was the answer. There are better options than EP for the 8th. One was used in the 7th. There aren’t many worse options than him for that role. Duffey and Cotton probably.

And if Jax wasn't used in the 7th somebody else would've been. The point is that you continue to complain about Rocco and his use of the bullpen while refusing to admit that it isn't his fault he has 2 guys who should be trusted to pitch in late games. There's no great pitching strategy to overcome the talent of this bullpen.

[CRF]

No matter what...Rocco can't keep throwing Pagan out there in close games...just to puke all over himself like he's been doing. I'm all for giving guys a second chance at redemption...but when it gets to 5th or 6th chances, I'm off that plan. 

[SwainZag]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

And if Jax wasn't used in the 7th somebody else would've been. The point is that you continue to complain about Rocco and his use of the bullpen while refusing to admit that it isn't his fault he has 2 guys who should be trusted to pitch in late games. There's no great pitching strategy to overcome the talent of this bullpen.

Especially with Smith on the IL.  

[Aggies7]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

And if Jax wasn't used in the 7th somebody else would've been. The point is that you continue to complain about Rocco and his use of the bullpen while refusing to admit that it isn't his fault he has 2 guys who should be trusted to pitch in late games. There's no great pitching strategy to overcome the talent of this bullpen.

My biggest complaint with Rocco is his pulling starters too early (not today’s problem). I have freely admitted in the past that he doesn’t have much to work with but if you’re going to keep putting the same guy in the same position that he’s proven to be bad in, then you’re fair game to be criticized. 
 

And again, my original point was that guys who can finish games are not overrated as has been said often here 

[bighat]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't like Pagan either, but the answer isn't "just throw Duran every late inning of every close game." You want Duran as the closer so you have to deal with lesser pitchers who shouldn't be pitching late game, high leverage innings. That's how it works.

Yeah but Duran was rested. The game was there for the taking, should have had the best guy out there, but Rocco tried to spin the wheel and get cute & now the Twins might be swept today.

[h2oface]

26 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Yeah, but they only scored 2 runs

Once again, if you give your pen a one run lead in the bottom of the 8th, it doesn't matter if it is 10-9 or 2-1. It absolutely does not matter how many runs have been scored in the game. It only matters what the difference is. The total number of runs means nothing. The 3-2  or 2-1 win counts as much as the 11-1 win. The pen only has one job, and that is to hold the lead. It certainly is NEVER acceptable to walk, walk, WP, and starting with a 3-0 count to the third batter (all cutters) before getting a couple strikes (one take) with 4-seamers and going back to the cutter (which was hanging and another ball, actually, just outside, which would have been baseloaded) and giving up a 2 run single. Sancez likes the cutters? It is on the pen to support not only the lead, but to not blow the great work by your starter, your mate.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, bighat said:

Yeah but Duran was rested. The game was there for the taking, should have had the best guy out there, but Rocco tried to spin the wheel and get cute & now the Twins might be swept today.

Great point. I recognize that there are inning concerns with duran, but again if the option is pagan or duran for 2, I know which way I’m leaning 

[chpettit19]

Just now, bighat said:

Yeah but Duran was rested. The game was there for the taking, should have had the best guy out there, but Rocco tried to spin the wheel and get cute & now the Twins might be swept today.

And if Rocco uses Duran for 2 innings this game and then loses tonight and tomorrow in close games he's not available for you're back on here complaining that he didn't have Duran to use. The Twins have 2 even semi-trustworthy relievers right now. People need to quit blaming it on Rocco's usage of the pen guys everyday. It's simply an awful argument. Jax and Duran can't pitch every close inning late. They simply can't. That means Rocco literally has to put other guys in there. It's getting real old hearing the same complaints while people ignore the lack of options.

[SwainZag]

2 minutes ago, bighat said:

Yeah but Duran was rested. The game was there for the taking, should have had the best guy out there, but Rocco tried to spin the wheel and get cute & now the Twins might be swept today.

You also face Cleveland tonight and tomorrow.  Using Duran for 2 innings this morning, means he is unavailable for both of the next two games.  If they can get 6 outs with the lead today and save Duran for later, it's a wonderful move.  If the Twins don't leave Kepler at 2nd with 0 outs in the 8th, this game might still be going.  Pagan was awful today, but the Twins did more to not win this game besides him.

[bighat]

12 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

And if Jax wasn't used in the 7th somebody else would've been. The point is that you continue to complain about Rocco and his use of the bullpen while refusing to admit that it isn't his fault he has 2 guys who should be trusted to pitch in late games. There's no great pitching strategy to overcome the talent of this bullpen.

I know I just wrote about how I thought Duran should have been used in this particular case, but overall I do agree with you on this.

From Theilbar, Pagan, Duffey, Cotton, the list of guys in the 'pen who shouldn't be in MLB right now is incredible. Not much Rocco can do but run them out there, or pitch a starter 120 pitches.

[Aggies7]

4 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

You also face Cleveland tonight and tomorrow.  Using Duran for 2 innings this morning, means he is unavailable for both of the next two games.  If they can get 6 outs with the lead today and save Duran for later, it's a wonderful move.  If the Twins don't leave Kepler at 2nd with 0 outs in the 8th, this game might still be going.  Pagan was awful today, but the Twins did more to not win this game besides him.

That’s a fair point but you could argue that you have a chance to win a game RIGHT NOW. Whoever you use today won’t be available tonight and what if tomorrow is not a close game, one way or the other?

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, bighat said:

I know I just wrote about how I thought Duran should have been used in this particular case, but overall I do agree with you on this.

From Theilbar, Pagan, Duffey, Cotton, the list of guys in the 'pen who shouldn't be in MLB right now is incredible. Not much Rocco can do but run them out there, or pitch a starter 120 pitches.

That really is my point here. I wouldn't have been pissed if he used Duran for 2 innings, but it's a 162 game season and it'd be worse if Rocco managed every game like it was a playoff game and paid no attention to upcoming games. That'd be bad managing. They need help in the pen. I hope Alcala can be part of that solution. I hope they bring in another guy or 2 via trade. And I hope Maeda is back in September to reinforce things more. It just gets old seeing these game threads turn into "Rocco screwed up again" fests everyday no matter whether they're winning or not because he has to put in so many questionable relievers.

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

That really is my point here. I wouldn't have been pissed if he used Duran for 2 innings, but it's a 162 game season and it'd be worse if Rocco managed every game like it was a playoff game and paid no attention to upcoming games. That'd be bad managing. They need help in the pen. I hope Alcala can be part of that solution. I hope the bring in another guy or 2 via trade. And I hope Maeda is back in September to reinforce things more. It just gets old seeing these game threads turn into "Rocco screwed up again" fests everyday no matter whether they're winning or not because he has to put in so many questionable relievers.

This is the internet, people have opinions and they aren’t always ones you agree with. When a guy blows a lead like that 2 times in one week and then is put in that same situation again a week later and predictably implodes, yeah people are gonna be a little unhappy 

[Vanimal46]

Moral of the story is get some GD bullpen arms, Falvey. 

[wsnydes]

Tonight is another game.  A split isn't the worst thing ever.  The lead in the division will be right where it started when the day began.

[Winston Smith]

3 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Moral of the story is get some GD bullpen arms, Falvey. 

No reason to hurry the games now don't count as much as the ones after the deadline and  it's always best to wait for the market to get picked over.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

This is the internet, people have opinions and they aren’t always ones you agree with. When a guy blows a lead like that 2 times in one week and then is put in that same situation again a week later and predictably implodes, yeah people are gonna be a little unhappy 

I don't care if the argument is one I agree with or not, I care that they're hypocritical and unproductive. It being the internet doesn't mean people can't still step back and think things through before just typing away comments/complaints that directly contradict their previous comments/complaints. It's entirely possible to be on the internet and think things through enough to have a calm, reasoned response instead of just waiting for any chance to complain without even a cursory consideration of how their complaints even compare to their own previous complaints. Complaining just to complain shouldn't just be accept because "this is the internet."

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't care if the argument is one I agree with or not, I care that they're hypocritical and unproductive. It being the internet doesn't mean people can't still step back and think things through before just typing away comments/complaints that directly contradict their previous comments/complaints. It's entirely possible to be on the internet and think things through enough to have a calm, reasoned response instead of just waiting for any chance to complain without even a cursory consideration of how their complaints even compare to their own previous complaints. Complaining just to complain shouldn't just be accept because "this is the internet."

Ok. And I think my reasoning here is pretty solid and not hypocritical.

[SwainZag]

7 minutes ago, Winston Smith said:

No reason to hurry the games now don't count as much as the ones after the deadline and  it's always best to wait for the market to get picked over.

At least be reasonable.  No one is making trades right now.  It's not even July 1st yet.