HOF controversy revisited

[mikelink45]

I love the men who were named to BB HOF - Tony and Jim , of course, Buck - the best, and the others so deserving and such a feel good election.

Then there is the new round of candidates and three last chance candidates that I would not vote for.  Yes, I like to have some accountability, but it gets more and more confusing.  What I really want to do is suggest that you check out https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32806209/barry-bonds-roger-clemens-far-less-great-subtract-ped-factor and read the projections of Dan Szymborski for a real look at the impact of PEDs.  

I know all the anguish.  They were potentially the best players of their time - maybe.  The Zips projections are really accurate and if you read this article you will find that Bonds might have had 23 HRs - not 73 in 2001.  Real?  I don't know.  I just know that Mark, Sammy, Bonds, Clemens, and ARod all jumped up like the superheroes who shed their everyday clothes.  

By Zips projections Bonds would have ended with 551 HRs - not 762.  I like that better.  He would have been a HOF player without PEDs and so would Clemens and Arod, but we have punished Rose for decades for betting and now sports leagues are partnering with casinos.  We have a lifetime ban on Shoeless Joe.  

I know we have this belief that we do not know all that were guilty, but so what, we do not catch all the crooks, but we still punish those we do catch.  We know the Black Sox were not the only ones to throw a game (although the series is a bigger deal), but that does not mean he should get a pat on the back.

All those who have not gotten in have benefitted from more publicity than those who have gotten in.  Can anyone name all the players who were voted in during this last nine years that these players were kept out?  

I do wish the Hall had the courage to just keep names off the list, but at least it is just 10 years and not 15 that we have to debate their supposed merits.

I thought I should add the inductees of the last nine years (everyone knows this years committee selections because of Oliva and Kaat) but do you know the others who got in during the Bonds and Clemens selection era?  Jeter, Miller, Simmons and Walker made an interesting group.  I would not have put in Miller (but I would also not put in owners and GMs).  2019 was the big class - Edgar Martinez starts the DH era going (good luck Ortiz) and Harold Baines begins the WTF era.  There was another era of questionable elections back when Frisch was on the committee and got a lot of team mates elected so we give Baines to the White Sox influence.  Roy Halladay was an emotional election and added to Rivera, Mussina, and Lee Smith made an large pitching presence - not a usual election.

2018 Vladimer Guerrero set the standard for his son, Jack Morris overcame the stathead prejudice,  Trevor Hoffman was another RP meaning the BP in the hall is starting to fill up.   Chipper Jones was an addition to a 3B list that is far too short,  Jim Thome was a shoe in and Trammell completed too long of a wait and we still do not have his second base partner Whitaker - they were the Aparicio/Fox team of their era.  2017 - Bagwell, Raines and Rodriquez were good, but not sensational picks and then they dumped Selig and Schuerholz in as candidates I could care less about. 2016 was Ken Griffey, Jr and Mike Piazza - small class, but good players.

2015 was Biggio and a group of excellent arms - Smoltz, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez (I would take that rotation!),  You can add the 2014 inductees - Maddux and Glavine to the rotation and we are set.  In 2014 they also added Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox and I still maintain there should be a separate recognition of managers.  We don't know how to judge them.  Was Casey Stengel the bum of the Boston Bees and New York Mets or the genius of the NY Yankees?  Frank Thomas was a no brainer and Joe Torre actually was a really solid player, but gets in as a manager and executive.

2013 was an election of men that no one alive every saw - Hank O'Day umpire.  I question putting in umpires too.  Not sure we know how to evaluate them except by longevity. Jack Ruppert another questionable executive who was part of the group that kept African Americans out.  And finally Deacon White and we really do not know how to evaluate him. 2012 Barry Larkin and Ron Santo.  Santo wanted the honor so bad while he was still alive.  Larkin was never someone I saw as HOF, but being on ESPN probably helped him.

2011 Pat Gillick - another front office guy who should not be in the Hall, Blyleven who was rescued by the new sabrmetrics and Robert Alomar. 

Now did you remember all of them?  Did they get the pub that Bonds and Clemens have gotten?

And then there is the joy of Kaat and Oliva joining this group of ex-Twins in the Hall.  Most gave us a few memories - Steve Carlton gave us a groan. 

Player	Years Played with Twins
Rod Carew*	1967-78
Steve Carlton	1987-88
Harmon Killebrew*	1961-74
Paul Molitor	1996-98
Kirby Puckett*	1984-95
Dave Winfield	1993-94
Bert Blyleven*	1970-76, 1985-88

[DJL44]

There is a big difference between cheating to win and cheating to lose.

[Cornholio]

While the zip projections seem to project @ 300 wins for Clemens, his 2 seasons prior to steroids look like he hit the end of the road. With about 200 wins. Not HOF material. Same with McGwire, without steroids he would not have been able to be on the field. Bonds likely would be in if not for the steroid cloud. 500 hr and 500 steals were attainable for him. Of all the alleged users, to me Bonds is the only one who would make the Hall, if he had not cheated.

[old nurse]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

There is a big difference between cheating to win and cheating to lose.

A cheater is a cheater. There is no honor in cheating to win, or to lose

[tarheeltwinsfan]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

There is a big difference between cheating to win and cheating to lose.

I'm not so sure. Try asking that question to those pitchers off of whom Bonds hit his majestic home runs and those batters  whom Roger Clemens made look silly by striking them out. There is also a difference in robbing a bank and of shoplifting. Both criminal acts punish unjustly those of us who obey the law/rules, by causing higher prices for lost goods and insurance premiums and security costs.   Similarly Clemens and Bonds cheated all those players who obeyed the rules. . I've got no respect for any of the wrong-doers in the examples I just gave, including Bonds and Clemens.  

[mikelink45]

12 hours ago, Cornholio said:

While the zip projections seem to project @ 300 wins for Clemens, his 2 seasons prior to steroids look like he hit the end of the road. With about 200 wins. Not HOF material. Same with McGwire, without steroids he would not have been able to be on the field. Bonds likely would be in if not for the steroid cloud. 500 hr and 500 steals were attainable for him. Of all the alleged users, to me Bonds is the only one who would make the Hall, if he had not cheated.

You are right - Boston gave up on him after seasons of 9 - 7, 10 - 5 and 10-13. Then he goes across the border and finds the fountain of youth and wins 20 and 21 games the next two seasons and drops his ERA 1+ runs. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

27 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

You are right - Boston gave up on him after seasons of 9 - 7, 10 - 5 and 10-13. Then he goes across the border and finds the fountain of youth and wins 20 and 21 games the next two seasons and drops his ERA 1+ runs. 

Clemens' final year in Boston he had a 139 ERA+, which was tenth best in MLB.

Reports of his demise with the Red Sox may have been a little premature.

[DJL44]

11 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Try asking that question to those pitchers off of whom Bonds hit his majestic home runs and those batters  whom Roger Clemens made look silly by striking them out. 

Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of their opponents were also cheating by using steroids. For most of those years steroid usage was against the rules but with no penalty if the player was caught. The Hall of Fame has put in Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire's manager Tony La Russa (who had to know what was going on). HoF has also inducted Whitey Ford and Gaylord Perry - who doctored the ball. Hank Greenberg was on Tiger teams that had scouts relaying signs from CF. Mickey Mantle took steroid injections. Lots of 1970s and 80s players were using amphetamines.

Cheating to lose is much, much worse. If one team is trying to throw the game to make money then there is really no game happening. It's a staged event designed to deceive gamblers, not an athletic contest. The results are pre-determined. It's the difference between a sporting event and actors following a script.

[Cornholio]

9 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Clemens' final year in Boston he had a 139 ERA+, which was tenth best in MLB.

Reports of his demise with the Red Sox may have been a little premature.

His final year in Boston was also only the second time in his then thirteen year career that he averaged over a strikeout per inning. Perhaps his usage of steroids pre-dated previous estimates. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

21 minutes ago, Cornholio said:

His final year in Boston was also only the second time in his then thirteen year career that he averaged over a strikeout per inning. Perhaps his usage of steroids pre-dated previous estimates. 

Sure, that's definitely possible but two years before the 139 ERA+ season, he had a 176 ERA+, the best in the league.

People have this weird notion Clemens was falling off a cliff in Boston but that simply isn't the case. He had one mediocre season, one good season, and literally every other season he was 130 ERA+ or higher.

[adorduan]

Bonds tarnished the single most cherished record in baseball.I can never forgive him for that.I hope he never makes it.

[TopGunn#22]

Cheaters are cheaters to me.  Yes, there may be varying degrees, but I'm pretty "traditional" in how I view it.  I don't want any of them (Ortiz included) to ever get into the HOF.  That said, I'm somewhat resigned to the idea that guys like me will eventually be in the minority and most, if not all of them will eventually get in.  Remember, Lance Armstrong never had an actual positive test.  If the masking agents you're using are superior, you can avoid that direct implication.  The most successful criminals always find a way to stay ahead of the Law.  Armstrong was eventually undone by teammate testimony against him.  

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Clemens' final year in Boston he had a 139 ERA+, which was tenth best in MLB.

Reports of his demise with the Red Sox may have been a little premature.

His last four years he WAR was 2.6, 6.0, 1.9, 7.7  looks a  little erratic hard to get the formula right. 

[DJL44]

29 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I don't want any of them to ever get into the HOF. 

Too late, that's already happened.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

His last four years he WAR was 2.6, 6.0, 1.9, 7.7  looks a  little erratic hard to get the formula right. 

Yep.

[Theodore Tollefson]

My view on this in short. If I had to allow one of the following into the HoF to ensure no other PED users would get into the HoF. It would be Clemens. He cheated big time and was rewarded for it, but compared to the off field controversy and big diva personalities of Bonds and A-Fraud, he was tamed. 

I will likely die on the hill of never allowing Alex Rodriguez any good grace for who he was as a player and who he is as a person. The whole man's career both in baseball and business is built on lying and cheating. The fact he is rewarded with things to this day with zero accountability disgusts me. The man was taking steroids before he finished puberty, so no records or awards, aside from the 2009 World Series, should remain standing by MLB. They're all fake. 

[gunnarthor]

I no longer really care. I'm strongly against the PED players getting in but a lot of them are already in. If guys like Bonds, Ortiz and Clemens don't get a plague, so what? They are still "in" the HOF in that their are parts of countless exhibits and baseball records. 

At the end, it comes down to what you want in your HOF. Is the plaque room the HOF? Or is the museum? Do you think the HOF should only honor the best of the best or should it honor baseball's history? Can you tell Baseball's history without Clemens? Probably not, but do you tell the history or do you hide it? Does his plaque point out his PED ties? 

So, I don't care. I'm thrilled beyond words that Buck O'Neil, Minnie Minuso, and Tony Oliva are in the HOF. That's good enough for me this year.

[TwinsDr2021]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:21 AM, Cornholio said:

His final year in Boston was also only the second time in his then thirteen year career that he averaged over a strikeout per inning. Perhaps his usage of steroids pre-dated previous estimates. 

Brian McNamee said he started in 1998 and was his trainer in 97, so are to believe him or not?

 

[dex8425]

I hate cheaters too, but how do you define cheaters? Bonds and Clemens never failed a drug test. Clemens trainer (who had reason to lie) says he used. Clemens says he didn't.

Is suspicion enough to keep someone out of the HOF? Apparently not, because Pudge and Bagwell and Piazza are in already.  The real reason Clemens and Bonds and Schilling and Sosa and Kevin Brown aren't in is because they aren't well-liked. I hate how the character clause is used to keep players out who weren't well liked.  The character clause should be used as a push, not a bar for entry.

I'm fine with keeping players who failed a drug test or were suspended by the MLB out of the HOF. So, no A-rod, Manny Ramirez, or Nelson Cruz.  

[TwinsDr2021]

I think with Pudge, Bagwell, and a lesser extent Piazza and Raines/Molitor and possibly others, keeping anybody out is silly (Maybe not Manny/AROD)

I find it funny two of the better Twins the last few years have been suspended for PED, IF Polanco continue to play like 2019 and 2021 for the next 8-10 years are we going to say he shouldn't be a HOF?

[dex8425]

1 hour ago, Theo Tollefson said:

My view on this in short. If I had to allow one of the following into the HoF to ensure no other PED users would get into the HoF. It would be Clemens. He cheated big time and was rewarded for it, but compared to the off field controversy and big diva personalities of Bonds and A-Fraud, he was tamed. 

I will likely die on the hill of never allowing Alex Rodriguez any good grace for who he was as a player and who he is as a person. The whole man's career both in baseball and business is built on lying and cheating. The fact he is rewarded with things to this day with zero accountability disgusts me. The man was taking steroids before he finished puberty, so no records or awards, aside from the 2009 World Series, should remain standing by MLB. They're all fake. 

Clemens did have the Mindy Mcready affair thing though. I'm not sure how many voters are aware of it however. I would vote for Clemens just because there's no proof he used PED's or broke any rules. And he's probably the greatest RH pitcher ever.   

[nicksaviking]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:44 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sure, that's definitely possible but two years before the 139 ERA+ season, he had a 176 ERA+, the best in the league.

People have this weird notion Clemens was falling off a cliff in Boston but that simply isn't the case. He had one mediocre season, one good season, and literally every other season he was 130 ERA+ or higher.

Yeah, the cliff seems like it was mostly due to playing for mediocre Boston teams. We were all pretty dumb back then thinking a pitchers W/L record meant anything more than jack squat.

[dex8425]

4 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I think with Pudge, Bagwell, and a lesser extent Piazza and Raines/Molitor and possibly others, keeping anybody out is silly (Maybe not Manny/AROD)

I find it funny two of the better Twins the last few years have been suspended for PED, IF Polanco continue to play like 2019 and 2021 for the next 8-10 years are we going to say he shouldn't be a HOF?

I think the "served a suspension for breaking MLB rules" line is a fair line to draw to keep people out. No Nelson Cruz, no Jorge Polanco, no Rafael Palmeiro, no AROD, no Manny, etc. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, the cliff seems like it was mostly due to playing for mediocre Boston teams. We were all pretty dumb back then thinking a pitchers W/L record meant anything more than jack squat.

Exactly.

[nicksaviking]

14 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Brian McNamee said he started in 1998 and was his trainer in 97, so are to believe him or not?

 

I couldn't care less when Clemens started using, it makes no difference to me.

But I wouldn't believe Brian McNamee if he said the sky was blue. Of all the terrible, terrible trainers out there pushing PEDs, this guy was among the worst. He'd say any and every lie available if it would benefit him.

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I couldn't care less when Clemens started using, it makes no difference to me.

But I wouldn't believe Brian McNamee if he said the sky was blue.

Totally agree with you, I was commenting on cornholio saying he might have started earlier based on some stats, instead of when his trainer said he started.

So my thoughts are you either believe his trainer or you don't, you can't start making up things because of some random stat.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Overall, conversations like this are why I no longer care about the hall of fame. The fact that Harold Baines is in Cooperstown and Barry Bonds is not is absurd and turns the Hall into a sideshow of moral superiority and back-slapping.

Either put the best players in or the entire thing has no meaning and the BBWAA’s soapbox righteous indignation over PEDs is nauseating.

Yeah, PEDs sucked. They did damage to the game. Bonds is still one of the 50 best players to ever play the game and a bunch of writers who vote in wife beaters and the like don’t get to pull the “integrity of the game” card. 

[mikelink45]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Overall, conversations like this are why I no longer care about the hall of fame. The fact that Harold Baines is in Cooperstown and Barry Bonds is not is absurd and turns the Hall into a sideshow of moral superiority and back-slapping.

Either put the best players in or the entire thing has no meaning and the BBWAA’s soapbox righteous indignation over PEDs is nauseating.

Yeah, PEDs sucked. They did damage to the game. Bonds is still one of the 50 best players to ever play the game and a bunch of writers who vote in wife beaters and the like don’t get to pull the “integrity of the game” card. 

Maybe we need to change the Hall to the history of baseball and not the hall of fame - it makes sense to me.

[TheLeviathan]

6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Overall, conversations like this are why I no longer care about the hall of fame. The fact that Harold Baines is in Cooperstown and Barry Bonds is not is absurd and turns the Hall into a sideshow of moral superiority and back-slapping.

Either put the best players in or the entire thing has no meaning and the BBWAA’s soapbox righteous indignation over PEDs is nauseating.

Yeah, PEDs sucked. They did damage to the game. Bonds is still one of the 50 best players to ever play the game and a bunch of writers who vote in wife beaters and the like don’t get to pull the “integrity of the game” card. 

This.  The HOF never had any integrity or aura beyond what is falsely peddled.  It's a museum of baseball immortality that includes all sorts of racist, drug abusing, human abusing low life a-holes.  It already includes people who cheated in all sorts of ways too.  We just have these weird moral lines we like to think are consistent, when really they're just a bunch of writers getting their last guffaw at the dudes they covered.

No matter how much we want to pretend, those players are part of that immortality.  Shame them if you want, but their role in the game was what it was.  Put 'em in and be done with it.  Then do better to stop the next cheater.

[mikelink45]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:22 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Overall, conversations like this are why I no longer care about the hall of fame. The fact that Harold Baines is in Cooperstown and Barry Bonds is not is absurd and turns the Hall into a sideshow of moral superiority and back-slapping.

Either put the best players in or the entire thing has no meaning and the BBWAA’s soapbox righteous indignation over PEDs is nauseating.

Yeah, PEDs sucked. They did damage to the game. Bonds is still one of the 50 best players to ever play the game and a bunch of writers who vote in wife beaters and the like don’t get to pull the “integrity of the game” card. 

Actually conversations like this is the real value of the HOF - not who is in it.  As I added to my post there are all these players who were put in during the time of Bonds/Clemens controversy - 28 elected not counting this year.  Yet most of them are forgotten and their election was a blip on the radar allowing us to talk, debate, and complain.  Baseball has always been a sport of comparisons and controversies and it needs to be that as much as the baseball savant curves and graphs that dominate so many discussions now.  I will always be interested in the HOF despite its imperfections.