Garver...my goodness, isn't it time?

[DocBauer]

I have beaten this drum a couple times here at TD. But I'm going to bang the crap out of that drum again until the skin breaks through.

 

I am in no way going to wax poetically that Garver is some Gold Glove, future All Star catcher just waiting to explode on the scene. But I also think we need to take a step back, recognize the reality of his situation, and then take a much needed step forward.

 

I think we can all mostly agree that the 2 hardest things to find in baseball are a true ACE pitcher, and a "do it all" catcher. And both are also hard to define. In regard to catcher, there are simply very few guys like Mauer, Rodriguez, Possey, etc, who are just born to the position and dominate. (We could talk Fisk and Bench and others, but you get the point). For the most part, catchers, with rare exception, are not 21-23 yo dominate players. They have a special skill set and development arc. Admit it, how many of you wish the much maligned Drew Butera was now still with the Twins over Wilson? (Not a personal knock on Wilson at all).

 

The Twins are in an awkward situation at catcher right now. Castro was supposed to be the guy the veteran and leader, and probably mentor to Garver. His injury thrust Garver, as a rookie, in to a hilighted position. And this brought about the unexpected and unintended promotion of Wilson. Throughout his milb career, we have heard and seen Garver has a strong arm and real offensive potential. And we heard reporting defense was at least OK, and getting better. In 2017, he was little action behind the plate when brought up.

 

Fast forward to 2018 and we have seen a mixed bag. Some say he stinks behind the bag defensively. My own observations have been some poor play and good play. Opinions and observations vary. While I haven't been keeping track recently, I posted some time ago how many games he had caught in which the staff allowed zero or only 1 run scored. The jist of it being, he seemed to be a good game caller, even if he was rough behind the plate. And we were all waiting to see if the offensive part of his game would show through.

 

IMO, his game calling is pretty good. His overall defense? It's a work in progress. But how can he learn and progress if not allowed to play regularly? Offensively? Let's look at the numbers.

 

185 AB, .270 AVG/ .351 OB/ .416 SLG/ .767 OPS

 

And his numbers are even better when you look his last couple of weeks. Hot streak? SSS? Maybe.

 

Let's look at Wilson.

 

106 AB, .170 AVG/ .224 OB/ .264 SLG/ .488 OPS. Somehow, he has produced 13 RBI in 18 hits! And he also has been "hotter" in the past couple of weeks.

 

I don't doubt experience has made Wilson at least a decent defensive catcher. But he is what he is, a 35yo AAA catcher who contemplated retirement in the off season. Garver is a solid/good game caller with a strong arm and potentially solid/good bat who was supposed to learn and hone his skills behind Castro this season.

 

Yes, the Twins COULD make a big trade for someone. Or they could make a FA move next off season for Ramos. But is it also possible that they have a catcher who just needs an opportunity to learn and grow? Has the FO and Molitor been slow-playing Garver to set him up for success? Or have they been blindly playing Wilson in hopes his experience eeks out another win or two?

 

Not saying Garver will lead us through the next ERA of success. But couldn't he be a part of it? And has someone just dropped the ball on his continued development? Or has this been calculated and we're going to actually see more and more of him?

[TheLeviathan]

I think we can all agree we've seen enough of Bobby Wilson.

 

Garver has some questionable skills back there...but at this point let's give him a long run as the number 1 catcher.

[curt1965]

I have beaten this drum a couple times here at TD. But I'm going to bang the crap out of that drum again until the skin breaks through.

I am in no way going to wax poetically that Garver is some Gold Glove, future All Star catcher just waiting to explode on the scene. But I also think we need to take a step back, recognize the reality of his situation, and then take a much needed step forward.

I think we can all mostly agree that the 2 hardest things to find in baseball are a true ACE pitcher, and a "do it all" catcher. And both are also hard to define. In regard to catcher, there are simply very few guys like Mauer, Rodriguez, Possey, etc, who are just born to the position and dominate. (We could talk Fisk and Bench and others, but you get the point). For the most part, catchers, with rare exception, are not 21-23 yo dominate players. They have a special skill set and development arc. Admit it, how many of you wish the much maligned Drew Butera was now still with the Twins over Wilson? (Not a personal knock on Wilson at all).

The Twins are in an awkward situation at catcher right now. Castro was supposed to be the guy the veteran and leader, and probably mentor to Garver. His injury thrust Garver, as a rookie, in to a hilighted position. And this brought about the unexpected and unintended promotion of Wilson. Throughout his milb career, we have heard and seen Garver has a strong arm and real offensive potential. And we heard reporting defense was at least OK, and getting better. In 2017, he was little action behind the plate when brought up.

Fast forward to 2018 and we have seen a mixed bag. Some say he stinks behind the bag defensively. My own observations have been some poor play and good play. Opinions and observations vary. While I haven't been keeping track recently, I posted some time ago how many games he had caught in which the staff allowed zero or only 1 run scored. The jist of it being, he seemed to be a good game caller, even if he was rough behind the plate. And we were all waiting to see if the offensive part of his game would show through.

IMO, his game calling is pretty good. His overall defense? It's a work in progress. But how can he learn and progress if not allowed to play regularly? Offensively? Let's look at the numbers.

185 AB, .270 AVG/ .351 OB/ .416 SLG/ .767 OPS

And his numbers are even better when you look his last couple of weeks. Hot streak? SSS? Maybe.

Let's look at Wilson.

106 AB, .170 AVG/ .224 OB/ .264 SLG/ .488 OPS. Somehow, he has produced 13 RBI in 18 hits! And he also has been "hotter" in the past couple of weeks.

I don't doubt experience has made Wilson at least a decent defensive catcher. But he is what he is, a 35yo AAA catcher who contemplated retirement in the off season. Garver is a solid/good game caller with a strong arm and potentially solid/good bat who was supposed to learn and hone his skills behind Castro this season.

Yes, the Twins COULD make a big trade for someone. Or they could make a FA move next off season for Ramos. But is it also possible that they have a catcher who just needs an opportunity to learn and grow? Has the FO and Molitor been slow-playing Garver to set him up for success? Or have they been blindly playing Wilson in hopes his experience eeks out another win or two?

Not saying Garver will lead us through the next ERA of success. But couldn't he be a part of it? And has someone just dropped the ball on his continued development? Or has this been calculated and we're going to actually see more and more of him?

My feelings exactly, Doc! In fact, about 5minutes ago, I seconded this great post with my further contribution to my question of how the FO has handled the catching situation.

We need to see what we have in Garver for the future, and aren’t going to find out anything if he plays every 3rd day. The Twins will more than likely come down to earth in their next series with Boston, and the hope of catching Cleveland will finally be eliminated. Maybe then we will see more of Garver, Gonsalves, and others who will then have maybe 2 months to make an impression for 2019 and beyond.

[Platoon]

In the year of the 103 losses Molitor was still more interested in eekimg out a win with veterans, than developing players. He hasn't changed. I am sure the FO know this also, but Molitor got shoved right up their posterior by Pohlad. There just seems little doubt that Molitor and the FO aren't on the same track. As for Garver. He isn't optimal, but he is what they have. Either play him, or find someone else to do it. And that isn't Wilson. Is Garver a good game manager? Who really calls pitches? Catchers spend an awful lot of time looking into the dugout? Why?

[Nine of twelve]

 

I think we can all mostly agree that the 2 hardest things to find in baseball are a true ACE pitcher, and a "do it all" catcher. And both are also hard to define. In regard to catcher, there are simply very few guys like Mauer, Rodriguez, Possey, etc, who are just born to the position and dominate. (We could talk Fisk and Bench and others, but you get the point). For the most part, catchers, with rare exception, are not 21-23 yo dominate players. They have a special skill set and development arc.

As I said in another thread, true catchers who can hit are rare, and Twins fans were extremely fortunate to see the best overall season a catcher has ever had in 2009. My comment regarding this part of DB's post is regarding Rodriguez. It's nearly 100% certain that his peak performance level was achieved via PED's and for that reason I hesitate to include him with the other four you cited.

[Blackjack]

With Castro coming back and Garver showing promise, the Twins won't be looking to upgrade catcher in 2019, Castro and Garver are it - with a guy like Wilson in AAA in case of injury.

[Blackjack]

 

 

Admit it, how many of you wish the much maligned Drew Butera was now still with the Twins over Wilson?

 

 

Remembering how Butera was bashed here on TD, I thought the same thing when Kansas City was in town.

[D. Hocking]

I did not have quite the animosity towards Drew that a lot of people had ... until he hit that in the park home run...

 

I wonder in 2010, 2011 how many predicted he would still be playing in 2018,

[gil4]

 Admit it, how many of you wish the much maligned Drew Butera was now still with the Twins over Wilson? (Not a personal knock on Wilson at all).

It may not be a personal knock on Wilson, but it is at least a professional knock on him.  They are practically the same player - decent defensive catchers in their mid-30's who can't hit. Both are replacement-level or slightly worse.

 

Butera might be a better pitcher and he looks more like a ballplayer, but I think his dominant .702 OPS against the Twins might be skewing your perspective. In the Baseball Reference similarity scores, Bobby Wilson is #7 on Butera's list (#3 on his similarity through age 33 list).

[RatherBeGolfing]

 

With Castro coming back and Garver showing promise, the Twins won't be looking to upgrade catcher in 2019, Castro and Garver are it - with a guy like Wilson in AAA in case of injury.

 

This is terrifying

[gil4]

 

I did not have quite the animosity towards Drew that a lot of people had ... until he hit that in the park home run...

 

I wonder in 2010, 2011 how many predicted he would still be playing in 2018,

He had a big year in 2016 (0.4 WAR) that bought him two more years.  I will be mildly surprised if it bought him three. He could really use another SSS hot streak.

[Doomtints]

Garver was bad during a small sample size this year after he unexpectedly had some big shoes to fill. Stop judging him on it. If you are surprised about his recent play, you're not paying attention.

 

Also, he is still a rookie. He hit the snot out of the ball in the minors, but we fans were ready to toss him aside after less than a year?

 

 

Regarding his defense, his numbers look unexciting but not detrimental. And again, he's a rookie. Small sample sizes in the flavor of the month defensive metrics are useless.

[jorgenswest]

Catching has a huge growth curve. If there was a plan to see if he could be a regular catcher for 2019 I think it would look like this year. There is a lot of work/study to be done when not catching. Plan A was learn with Castro. Plan B is learn with Wilson. This isn't a very desirable plan B but how many other veteran catchers would sign last winter knowing that they would be in AAA? 

 

Garver has been catching primarily Lynn and Odorizzi putting him at 40% for a stretch. He recently caught the 5th starters in Mejia and Santana. Watch for his increased usage the last two months. It is one game but he did a nice job of catching the shaky command of Santana yesterday. 

 

I think there is hope he can be the 60-70% catcher next year with Castro at 30-40%.

[clone52]

I think they are handling Garver about right.  He's on pace to catch more games than he ever has in his career and it looks like they are beginning to play slightly more often.

[iceslick]

Don't sleep on Navarreto. He's still relatively young, has improved his hitting (low strikeouts - puts the ball in play), and has a cannon for an arm. I thought he was supposed to be pretty good defensively as well. Seems to me he would make a pretty good back up catcher to Garver/Castro next year

[Vanimal46]

With Castro coming back and Garver showing promise, the Twins won't be looking to upgrade catcher in 2019, Castro and Garver are it - with a guy like Wilson in AAA in case of injury.

I hope you're wrong... Sorry.

[ChrisKnutson]

It is Garver’s time, and if it isn’t, then it’s Molitor’s time.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm ok with Garver catching about 50/50 of the time, or less, until they are eliminated (or clinch!) because I think the added rest between games is improving his performance. He might be earning some DH time, too.

[howieramone2]

 

This is terrifying

For the opposition.

[Blackjack]

 

This is terrifying

So why are you terrified?

 

I'm just stating my opinion of what I think will happen at catcher in 2019.  They have another $8 million committed to Castro and Garver just needs playing time to see whether he's the best option for 2020, I don't see the Twins spending a lot of prospects or free agent dollars to get another catcher.

[Doomtints]

 

So why are you terrified?

 

I'm just stating my opinion of what I think will happen at catcher in 2019.  They have another $8 million committed to Castro and Garver just needs playing time to see whether he's the best option for 2020, I don't see the Twins spending a lot of prospects or free agent dollars to get another catcher.

 

The Twins have exactly what they want in Garver. He won't hit free agency until he is 32 years old. If he turns out to be terrible (he won't), they can cut him. If he turns out to be average, good, or great, they can keep him through all of his prime years for cheap.

[RatherBeGolfing]

 

So why are you terrified?

 

I'm just stating my opinion of what I think will happen at catcher in 2019.  They have another $8 million committed to Castro and Garver just needs playing time to see whether he's the best option for 2020, I don't see the Twins spending a lot of prospects or free agent dollars to get another catcher.

 

No, I agree with the logic, they aren't going to be players with FA catchers this offseason. I know they aren't.

 

That is what's terrifying to me though. The writing on the wall is pretty clear that we won't be doing anything this offseason to improve a position that quite frankly needs a lot of work. I agree, Garver needs time in the rest of this throwaway season to show what he can do but I think a lot of people have extremely optimistic hopes of what his upside is. He's never going to be a good defensive catcher and while he could be a solid hitter, I personally don't think he's ever going to be that great on that side of things either.

 

Basically terrified that we seem perfectly content to roll with Castro and Garver next year behind the plate.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

So why are you terrified?

 

I'm just stating my opinion of what I think will happen at catcher in 2019.  They have another $8 million committed to Castro and Garver just needs playing time to see whether he's the best option for 2020, I don't see the Twins spending a lot of prospects or free agent dollars to get another catcher.

I'm terrified too

 

Garver is a fine backup, maybe he can become a good starter, but he's not there yet. Rolling with Castro and Garver as the primary plan for 2019, creates a high likelihood of repeating 2018 with AAAA emergency catcher as your primary catcher again.

 

Knee injuries to catchers can be catastrophic. Garver has options. Gotta plan on Castro being the backup next year and have Garver be your AAA backup plan.

 

As for 2018, I'd like to see Garver take the lions share of catching duties from here on out. Lets see what we got.

[howieramone2]

 

No, I agree with the logic, they aren't going to be players with FA catchers this offseason. I know they aren't.

 

That is what's terrifying to me though. The writing on the wall is pretty clear that we won't be doing anything this offseason to improve a position that quite frankly needs a lot of work. I agree, Garver needs time in the rest of this throwaway season to show what he can do but I think a lot of people have extremely optimistic hopes of what his upside is. He's never going to be a good defensive catcher and while he could be a solid hitter, I personally don't think he's ever going to be that great on that side of things either.

 

Basically terrified that we seem perfectly content to roll with Castro and Garver next year behind the plate.

Were you aware, entering this season Castro caught the second most innings of any catcher in baseball since 2013? We will be fine at catcher next season, and I can't help but notice the new regime is adding catching prospects on a regular basis.

 

Journeymen catchers like Gimenez and Wilson are never going to be popular on fan boards.

[Mike Sixel]

 

With Castro coming back and Garver showing promise, the Twins won't be looking to upgrade catcher in 2019, Castro and Garver are it - with a guy like Wilson in AAA in case of injury.

 

Agreed. All those thinking they'll sign Ramos (who is hurt a lot) are most likely incorrect.

[Thrylos]

At this point, the Twins should not play anyone who is not part of their future, unless he can be traded.  Wilson does not fit that category and the Twins will be better of cutting him, and bringing 26 year old Astrudillo to be Garver's back up.    Not only this, but playing Wilson (-0.7 fWAR) over Garver (1.0 fWAR) costs the Twins games...

[jorgenswest]

At this point, the Twins should not play anyone who is not part of their future, unless he can be traded.  Wilson does not fit that category and the Twins will be better of cutting him, and bringing 26 year old Astrudillo to be Garver's back up.    Not only this, but playing Wilson (-0.7 fWAR) over Garver (1.0 fWAR) costs the Twins games...

You have a lot more confidence than I do about fangraphs ability to accurately measure defense at catcher.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You have a lot more confidence than I do about fangraphs ability to accurately measure defense at catcher.

 

They freely admit they don't take into account framing......but how much better would Wilson have to be than Garver to make up for that offensive difference? It is not a small difference....

[Platoon]

Castro coming back will help, but relying completely on his fixed knee is an iffy proposition.

[Loosey]

 

Catching has a huge growth curve. If there was a plan to see if he could be a regular catcher for 2019 I think it would look like this year. There is a lot of work/study to be done when not catching. Plan A was learn with Castro. Plan B is learn with Wilson. This isn't a very desirable plan B but how many other veteran catchers would sign last winter knowing that they would be in AAA? 

 

Garver has been catching primarily Lynn and Odorizzi putting him at 40% for a stretch. He recently caught the 5th starters in Mejia and Santana. Watch for his increased usage the last two months. It is one game but he did a nice job of catching the shaky command of Santana yesterday. 

 

I think there is hope he can be the 60-70% catcher next year with Castro at 30-40%.

If they want him to watch and be an understudy I am fine with that.  However, on days when he isn't catching it would be nice to see him spell Morrison and DH.  He can still learn but his bat stays in the lineup, at least of one of the 2 or 3 days he isn't catching