Buxton vs Hicks (the early years)

[Doomtints]

In any other time period, the GM doesn't gut the outfield and can bring up Hicks at the right time. Hicks then sticks around long enough so that Buxton can be brought up at the right time too.

 

For everyone who, at the time, saw Terry Ryan's first moves as re-GM as being so bad to as to cause years of frustration in the OF and at P, kudos to you.

[Doomtints]

 

 

Thank you for the history lesson from 4 years ago. He was the top prospect in baseball. No one called him Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays. There is a top prospect in baseball every year, he was one of them

 

Which modern baseball writer has seen either of those two play? No writer would make that comparison.

 

I bet if you think real hard you can remember one contemporary superstar player that Buxton *was* compared to every time his name was brought up. 

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

Which modern baseball writer has seen either of those two play? No writer would make that comparison.

 

I bet if you think real hard you can remember one contemporary superstar player that Buxton *was* compared to every time his name was brought up.

Well, Sid has.

[twinsguy45]

 

Which modern baseball writer has seen either of those two play? No writer would make that comparison.

 

I bet if you think real hard you can remember one contemporary superstar player that Buxton *was* compared to every time his name was brought up. 

Mike Trout this, Mike Trout that.....

 

 

[ewen21]

 

I am still optimistic on his future and believe time to let him keep working, or patience, is in order. I believe that's where our disagreement exists.

I don't have any trouble with you or anyone being optimistic about his future.  MY problem lies with people who reconstruct what I say and then try to force me to defend things I never said.  

 

 

Personally I am not optimistic about his future, although I feel it is too soon to "give up" on him. 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Funny how some people in this thread have found a single sentence in a couple of my posts and pit it against other things I stated explicitly in the same post. Why do people intentionally misinterpret points they don't like? Is this an attempt to find a contradiction?

 

I think what I said was quite clear. TO summarize:

1. Buxton and Hicks are not comparable

2. What Hicks has done in NY is irrelevant to how Buxton will proceed in this organization

3. The Twins have done a poor job of developing players as evidenced by the way players succeed after they leave and flop when they are here, or in the way hyped and touted players haven't panned out.

4. What Buxton did in the second half last year is no more important than what he has done this year

 

Anyone disagree with this?

It wasn't intentional.

I thought you were dismissing the idea that they gave up on Hicks too soon, because he probably wouldn't have found success without leaving.

If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but it certainly wasn't intentional.

[ewen21]

 

It wasn't intentional.
I thought you were dismissing the idea that they gave up on Hicks too soon, because he probably wouldn't have found success without leaving.
If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but it certainly wasn't intentional.

Maybe my reaction was off so I will also apologize.

 

On Murphy and Hicks, I thought that was a decent trade because both teams had a surplus at the respective positions.  I figured Murphy would be a good receiver and a guy who can hit about .260-.270 with like 12-15 home runs a year.

[ashbury]

If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, but it certainly wasn't intentional.

 

Maybe my reaction was off so I will also apologize.

Moderator's note: Well played, gentlemen.^*

 

^{* _{'Cuz I was just about to have to step in...}}

 

[Doomtints]

The Twins gave up on Murphy after *one year.*

 

It should be noted that Murphy is hitting and defending better than any Twins catcher this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The Twins gave up on Murphy after *one year.*

 

It should be noted that Murphy is hitting and defending better than any Twins catcher this year.

One and two-thirds season for Murphy in the Twins or (although the second season was all at Rochester).

 

B-Ref has Murphy and Garver with identical 98 OPS+ and 0.5 WAR figures right now, in 161 and 170 PA respectively. (Fangraphs gives a slight wRC+ and WAR advantage to Murphy, though.)

[yarnivek1972]

One and two-thirds season for Murphy in the Twins or (although the second season was all at Rochester).

 

B-Ref has Murphy and Garver with identical 98 OPS+ and 0.5 WAR figures right now, in 161 and 170 PA respectively. (Fangraphs gives a slight wRC+ and WAR advantage to Murphy, though.)

Murphy is the far more polished receiver and is YOUNGER.

[Mike Sixel]

And Murphy was awful in AAA. Terrible. Not sure what people wanted, realistically.

[mikelink45]

 

If you think the 50 at bats in AAA are more indicative of his future than the June 1 - September 29 numbers of last year in the majors (.275/.326/.472) than I don't know what to tell you, but we'll have to agree to disagree

There is no reason for the two of you to disagree, these are real statistics, but more important they are part of a multi-year set of statistics that future generations will look at and wonder what all the fuss is about.  Buxton has disappointed, the Twins handling of Buxton has disappointed.  What can we do about it.  Yes I would like to have Hicks back to play besides Buxton. Until Buxton turns it around we have nothing more to use in this comparison. 

[mikelink45]

What we should be looking at is what happened to each of these players and how did Hicks rise while Buxton has not.  Ted Schwerlzer wrote - "Prior to being called upon as the starting centerfielder entering the 2013 season, Aaron Hicks was a first round draft pick for the Twins. After being selected 14th overall in the 2008 MLB Draft out of high school, it took Hicks little time to show promise. At the rookie ball level with the GCL Twins, Hicks batted .318/.409/491. Over the course of his next four years of minor league ball, Hicks experienced up and down seasons year after year."  https://puckettspond.com/2015/01/12/aaron-hicks-twins-waiting/

 

Ted adds this (if I took the name out it would be a good guessing game to name the CF - "Minnesota chose not to allow Hicks any playing time in September 2012, but instead had him jump from Double-A into the major league starting lineup in 2013. The results were abysmal. Over 81 games in 2013, Aaron Hicks slash just .192/.259/.338. He struck out 84 times and walked in only 24 at-bats. More often than not, Hicks looked lost, confused, and without a plan at the plate."

 

When Aaron was recalled from AAA Brian Murphy said it was a no-brainer - "https://www.twincities.com/2015/05/11/twins-recall-center-fielder-aaron-hicks-from-aaa-rochester/

 

In this article we find that Hicks had concussion like symptoms after crashing into the wall.  https://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/5/2/5674810/aaron-hick-injury-twins-concussion-disabled-list-sam-fuld

 

Both are good players - remember when they tried to mess with Hicks switch hitting like they have gone and back and forth on Buxton's footwork at bat?  

I want both players and I want to say that sometimes too much coaching can be as bad as bad coaching and I do not know which player got which end of that choice. 

[jorgenswest]

And Murphy was awful in AAA. Terrible. Not sure what people wanted, realistically.

I want a good defensive catcher.

[Jham]

Hicks needed to be traded. Remember when he'd show up to the game and not know who was pitching but expect to be in the line up despite hitting below .200? That's the cost of losing and not keeping any veterans around. Hunter would have punched him in the face. Joe Mauer and Dozier would... talk to each other and make sure they got theirs. Funny how getting traded and going to an organization like the Yankees gets the most putt of guys, and going to a losing culture...

[jimmer]

Hicks needed to be traded. Remember when he'd show up to the game and not know who was pitching but expect to be in the line up despite hitting below .200? That's the cost of losing and not keeping any veterans around. Hunter would have punched him in the face. Joe Mauer and Dozier would... talk to each other and make sure they got theirs. Funny how getting traded and going to an organization like the Yankees gets the most putt of guys, and going to a losing culture...

These not so subtle kinds of attacks on Mauer's and Dozier's leadership and especially their character need to stop. Actually, needed to stop a long time ago.

 

Neither you nor anyone else in these forums know what kind of leaders they are NOR whether they only care about themselves(as opposed to being good teammates).

 

Yes, we do know Hunter had no problem getting violent with at least one teammate when that teammate didn't do what Hunter wanted. For some reason many people around here look to that course of action as great leadership, for reasons passing understanding.

 

P.S. Hunter was with the Twins during Hicks last season. I don't remember him punching Hicks in the face for failing to be prepared. In fact, it was often reported he took Hicks under his wing. And yet...

[Kelly Vance]

 

In quite a few threads there are lamentations about Buxton's poor performance.  Folks frequently had similar lamentations about Aaron Hicks during his tenure with the Twins.  I decided to pull some numbers on each of the players (note, this is not nearly as sophisticated an analysis as many of the regulars on TD accomplish):

 

Buxton

Year PA wRC+ OPS
2015 138 53 576
2016 331 86 714
2017 511 90 728
  980 Plate Appearances As a Twin
   
Hicks

Year PA wRC+ OPS

2013 313 62 597
2014 225 83 615
2015 390 96 721
  928 Plate Appearances As a Twin
2016 361 64 617
2017 361 127 847

 

For each player, their number of plate appearances are similar for their first three "full" years as a Twin and showed general year-over-year improvement.  Hicks's fourth year (with Yankees) was a significant regression from his third year (though not nearly as bad as Buxton's 2018 has been; couldn't even force myself to type those  horrific numbers!), but Hicks' fifth year (except for shortened by injury) was great (offensively) and his sixth year (2018 and not in the information above) is even better.

 

At the time Hicks was traded many were not unhappy to see him go (let's not let hindsight and the John Ryan Murphy fiasco cloud our memories of the past).

 

My take home message with this post is that while Buxton has certainly been terrible this year there is precedent for players requiring more than the magical 1000 PAs to achieve success as a Major Leaguer.  Allow yourself to imagine Buxton following a similar offensive trajectory as Hicks, a wRC+ of 127 with Buxton's defensive capability?  That's good stuff right there.

Then there is that little thing about a broken toe....

[USAFChief]

These not so subtle kinds of attacks on Mauer's and Dozier's leadership and especially their character need to stop. Actually, needed to stop a long time ago.

 

Neither you nor anyone else in these forums know what kind of leaders they are NOR whether they only care about themselves(as opposed to being good teammates).

 

Yes, we do know Hunter had no problem getting violent with at least one teammate when that teammate didn't do what Hunter wanted. For some reason many people around here look to that course of action as great leadership, for reasons passing understanding.

 

P.S. Hunter was with the Twins during Hicks last season. I don't remember him punching Hicks in the face for failing to be prepared. In fact, it was often reported he took Hicks under his wing. And yet...

And yet Hicks had his best season in a Twins uniform that year. And is currently posting an .880 OPS for the Yankees.

 

Perhaps there's no reason to subtly call out Hunter's leadership, either.

[jimmer]

With Hunter we have an actual supposed example of leadership that was provided by someone else. It's something that can be looked at and discussed since it has often been pointed to as an act of veteran leadership. With the attack on Mauer and Dozier leadership in the thread I quoted, they attack the character of the players without pointing to anything.

And Hicks decent but not overwhelming improvement in 2015 is likely more to do with getting more MLB experience and therefore more comfortable.

And my post about Hunter is not an attack on a players character either, which is supposed to be against site policy and is enforced by some moderators instead of defended and applauded by others (especially in regards to Mauer)

[Jham]

With Hunter we have an actual supposed example of leadership that was provided by someone else. It's something that can be looked at and discussed since it has often been pointed to as an act of veteran leadership. With the attack on Mauer and Dozier leadership in the thread I quoted, they attack the character of the players without pointing to anything.

 

And Hicks decent but not overwhelming improvement in 2015 is likely more to do with getting more MLB experience and therefore more comfortable.

 

And my post about Hunter is not an attack on a players character either, which is supposed to be against site policy and is enforced by some moderators instead of defended and applauded by others (especially in regards to Mauer)

I think you're extrapolating too much from my statement. And I don't exactly care for the holier than thou "no one knows what kind of leader..." We've watched Dozier for 6 years and Mauer for how many? I think we can draw some pretty fair conclusions. I love Mauer, but he's never been a leader. Same with Dozier and Cuddy. Each of them did their best in that roll, but every time a stronger personality emerged they would defer. That is not a slight. A club house can't have all leaders and no followers. The FO left them in miscast roles. Mauer is better when he can be Mauer. Dozier when he can be Dozier. The part about getting theirs is what comes when you take first pitch fastball strikes down the middle when you're down in the 9th with guys on base or insist on leading off when you're hitting 42 hr and when you're cold and hitting .200. Some call that selfish, I just think that both guys have their routines and struggle when they try to do something else. If they're not comfortable leading why force it?

 

For the record, I don't agree with punching teammates. I hope Hunter regrets hitting Morneau. You can keep guys focused without violence. Still, I've always felt that since Hunter, Santana, and Redmond left, perhaps even Nicky P, the team seemed way too comfortable losing.

[ewen21]

 

With the attack on Mauer and Dozier leadership in the thread I quoted, they attack the character of the players without pointing to anything.

What does this have to do with the topic being discussed?