Twins fire Dougie Baseball

[gunnarthor]

 

I love the part where Jodi doesn't want to be cited but he cites her anyways.  Not sure Doug is playing this smart. If the Twins take enough mud, they might actually say their side, which I suspect will have a much greater impact on his future employment then if he shuts up.

I doubt it. I'm sure Dougie's pros and cons are well known among the baseball industry. And frankly, this isn't much of a dust up. 

[Major League Ready]

 

I doubt it. I'm sure Dougie's pros and cons are well known among the baseball industry. And frankly, this isn't much of a dust up. 

 

Each new situation is an opportunity for DM to show he has grown in character (improved upon a con) and that he is developing this skill set.   Of course, this would provide his agent ammunition with prospective organizations.  "I demand to know who fired me"  Geez .... It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Kwak]

 

When was it said that "everyone" from the old regime would be let go?  Why can't guys be on a case by case basis?  And can we quit saying that he was fired?  Choosing not to re-new an expiring contract is a lot different than being fired.

No, it's a distinction without a meaningful difference.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

I'm not talking about who they do or don't let go.
I'm talking about who makes the phone call. That's literally what you have middle management (Steil) for.
Some here want Falvine going over Steils head and undermining his job duties. I don't understand that.

They aren't undermining his job duties. They're his bosses. I can't imagine this decision was made and executed by only Steil.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

In my opinion, as far as an "old guard" with the Twins goes when it comes to MiLB and development personnel, Doug wasn't a part of that. That was more front office people, scouts - not the on-field guys. He was new blood on the managerial side, with a different way of operating, which was a change from the perception of those before him.

 

In this line of thinking shouldn't Jake Mauer be fired as well? Tommy Watkins? Jeff Smith? Ray Smith?

 

How bad are casual fans going to flip when they fire Molitor after he maybe wins the Coach of the Year award?

I'm not arguing for keeping Doug or letting him go. 

 

My quote was in response to a post that said Falvey or Levine calling Doug would be micromanaging and going over middle management's head. I disagreed with that take. 

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not arguing for keeping Doug or letting him go. 

 

My quote was in response to a post that said Falvey or Levine calling Doug would be micromanaging and going over middle management's head. I disagreed with that take. 

 

And if the employee would report something directly to Falvey rather than Steil, they'd be told to go through proper channels. It works the other direction as well. For legality purposes, there are set HR guidelines in most organizations on who does firing of supervised employees. I do remember a case in one of my HR classes in college about an upper management person losing their job for going around the employee's direct supervisor in a termination because it violated company policy. There are often very strong legal reasons why a certain person is the one making the call.

[USAFChief]

 

And if the employee would report something directly to Falvey rather than Steil, they'd be told to go through proper channels. It works the other direction as well. For legality purposes, there are set HR guidelines in most organizations on who does firing of supervised employees. I do remember a case in one of my HR classes in college about an upper management person losing their job for going around the employee's direct supervisor in a termination because it violated company policy. There are often very strong legal reasons why a certain person is the one making the call.

He wasn't fired.

 

His contract expired, and wasn't renewed.

 

There are ZERO HR issues here.  None.  

[Major League Ready]

 

He wasn't fired.

 

His contract expired, and wasn't renewed.

 

There are ZERO HR issues here.  None.  

 

There MIGHT NOT be legal issues but that determination is NOT for employees to make..   That's why there are guidelines in place..   There are considerable HR related issues associated with undermining the authority of the direct supervisor..   If you want to get on management for this one, you might as well just announce you are going to take the players side no matter what. 

[spinowner]

 

They aren't undermining his job duties. They're his bosses. I can't imagine this decision was made and executed by only Steil.  

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. My guess (emphasize guess) is that Steil determined the levels of performance expected for minor league managers, and that he presented this to Falvine and they concurred. Then, Steil's evaluation of Mient's performance led him to the conclusion that his contract should not be renewed, and that he presented this to Falvine and they concurred. Then all three agreed that Steil was the proper one to handle the conversation, the conversation took place and that was that. And that should have been that except for some petulance displayed by Mient and, by extension, Souhan.

[old nurse]

A contract worker is an employee for only as long as the contract. The contract was not renewed.  There is no HR issues. There are no legal issues.  There are no HIPPA issues as his wife was not an employee, nor was she likely to be under the care of the Twins' trainers. He managed to win games. Looks good on the resume. It is really hard to say that he developed anybody beyond what they would have been. What he has done, someone else can do. Maybe even work at developing pitchers. Developing plate discipline, Fundamental baseball.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Or, maybe Steil should have told Mientkiewicz it was Goin's decision.

[Thrylos]

 

 There are no HIPPA issues as his wife was not an employee

 

There are no HIPPA issues, because that does not exist. 

 

There are HIPAA issues when someones discloses another party's health situation without their consent.  So Souhan had the Mientkiewiczes consent to disclose her illness, and much more in mass distributed media.

 

The HIPAA situation is not about the Twins.

[old nurse]

 

There are no HIPPA issues, because that does not exist. 

 

There are HIPAA issues when someones discloses another party's health situation without their consent.  So Souhan had the Mientkiewiczes consent to disclose her illness, and much more in mass distributed media.

 

The HIPAA situation is not about the Twins.

Souhan is not a health care provider. The law does not cover journalists  repeating what the player has said in the past. HELLO  I worked with the law since it's inception

[Otto von Ballpark]

What's really upsetting is that Falvey and Levine completely ignored the recommendations of their consultants:

 

 

They didn't do it on a Friday, they didn't simply move Mientkiewicz down to the rookie leagues, and they didn't just "fix the glitch" to stop his paychecks.

 

For that matter, if they had only met with Doug in person, they surely would have seen he is a straight shooter with upper management written all over him!

[Mr. Brooks]

There are no HIPPA issues, because that does not exist.

 

There are HIPAA issues when someones discloses another party's health situation without their consent. So Souhan had the Mientkiewiczes consent to disclose her illness, and much more in mass distributed media.

 

The HIPAA situation is not about the Twins.

That's not even close to what HIPAA is.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. My guess (emphasize guess) is that Steil determined the levels of performance expected for minor league managers, and that he presented this to Falvine and they concurred. Then, Steil's evaluation of Mient's performance led him to the conclusion that his contract should not be renewed, and that he presented this to Falvine and they concurred. Then all three agreed that Steil was the proper one to handle the conversation, the conversation took place and that was that. And that should have been that except for some petulance displayed by Mient and, by extension, Souhan.

I'll grant you that scenario may have played out in that exact manner, but the decision is ultimately Falvey's. The evaluation by Steil follows Falvey's guidelines and I think we can all agree Falvey's assessment of Doug played a large part in his "non-retention," as well. Falvey's fingerprints are all over everything related to Doug being let go except the call to inform him. IMO a call from the person making the decision and an explanation for the rationale behind it is warranted. I think Craig said it perfectly earlier; maybe the issue is that this format for releasing employees is accepted as commonplace. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

And if the employee would report something directly to Falvey rather than Steil, they'd be told to go through proper channels. It works the other direction as well. For legality purposes, there are set HR guidelines in most organizations on who does firing of supervised employees. I do remember a case in one of my HR classes in college about an upper management person losing their job for going around the employee's direct supervisor in a termination because it violated company policy. There are often very strong legal reasons why a certain person is the one making the call.

Individuals skip levels of command in the corporate world. It happens. Sports is an entirely different animal than the corporate world. Look no further than the team chasing the Twins for the 2nd wild card spot. Scioscia ran their GM out of LA because of his relationship with the owner. If Falvey wanted to make the call he could have. Period. He chose not to; I think that was a poor decision.    

[Rosterman]

Ultimately this off-season will show us i the Twins start going outside the organization for a rebuild than just moving guys around and having everyone with lifetime contracts. Not that I'm knocking the longevity of guys in the minors, many like the Eliz folks have been here forever.

 

See who else moves from the front office, where new scouts come from and all.

[biggentleben]

 

He wasn't fired.

 

His contract expired, and wasn't renewed.

 

There are ZERO HR issues here.  None.  

 

Does not change the procedure on who makes the call on a non-renewal. All HR procedures would still apply while the employee is currently on contract.

[biggentleben]

 

Individuals skip levels of command in the corporate world. It happens. Sports is an entirely different animal than the corporate world. Look no further than the team chasing the Twins for the 2nd wild card spot. Scioscia ran their GM out of LA because of his relationship with the owner. If Falvey wanted to make the call he could have. Period. He chose not to; I think that was a poor decision.    

 

You may want to just skip the offseason, then. I have a feeling you'll be upset about a number of "poor decisions". Of course, no comment was made in the Rasmussen thread or any of the threads on scouts being let go about who contacted them, so apparently it's not years of service that matters, it's level of "fame".

[biggentleben]

 

A contract worker is an employee for only as long as the contract. The contract was not renewed.  There is no HR issues. There are no legal issues.  There are no HIPPA issues as his wife was not an employee, nor was she likely to be under the care of the Twins' trainers. He managed to win games. Looks good on the resume. It is really hard to say that he developed anybody beyond what they would have been. What he has done, someone else can do. Maybe even work at developing pitchers. Developing plate discipline, Fundamental baseball.

 

HIPPA isn't an issue here. However, the contracts in minor league baseball (depending on team, but as a general rule) run until at least October 1, and sometimes until end of the major league season. It is very feasible that Doug was (and is) still under active contract that will not be renewed when the call was made.

[old nurse]

 

HIPPA isn't an issue here. However, the contracts in minor league baseball (depending on team, but as a general rule) run until at least October 1, and sometimes until end of the major league season. It is very feasible that Doug was (and is) still under active contract that will not be renewed when the call was made.

Thyrlos was making HIPPA an issue. 

So what if the contract ran to whatever date. There is no obligation to renew it.

[USAFChief]

Does not change the procedure on who makes the call on a non-renewal. All HR procedures would still apply while the employee is currently on contract.

There are no "HR procedures" to consider.

 

Falvine could have chosen to make the call, to one of a handful of minor league MANAGERS in their system,. I think not making that call demonstrates a lack of experience and judgement...and lacks class.

 

It's that simple. Feel free to diasagree, obviously.

 

But HIPAA and "HR" are irrelevant at best, and lame corporate gobbledygook at worst.

[KirbyDome89]

 

You may want to just skip the offseason, then. I have a feeling you'll be upset about a number of "poor decisions". Of course, no comment was made in the Rasmussen thread or any of the threads on scouts being let go about who contacted them, so apparently it's not years of service that matters, it's level of "fame".

It has already been stated a few times in this thread; Doug wasn't the clubhouse batboy, he managed one of a few minor league teams affiliated with the Twins. So, can we stop with the "every firing is a poor decision hyperbole?". It isn't about "fame," it's about somebody who had given years of time with the organization and had reached a high level position. Whether you agree or disagree with his coaching or development approach, he deserved better than a call from Steil and no elaboration on why he wasn't being retained. The same applies to Rasmussen and any other long tenured, high ranking individual who is released from the organization. 

[biggentleben]

 

It has already been stated a few times in this thread; Doug wasn't the clubhouse batboy, he managed one of a few minor league teams affiliated with the Twins. So, can we stop with the "every firing is a poor decision hyperbole?". It isn't about "fame," it's about somebody who had given years of time with the organization and had reached a high level position. Whether you agree or disagree with his coaching or development approach, he deserved better than a call from Steil and no elaboration on why he wasn't being retained. The same applies to Rasmussen and any other long tenured, high ranking individual who is released from the organization. 

 

Nearly all of whom let go had longer Twins tenures and none of whom have seen this sentiment raised in their threads.

 

Just saying.

[biggentleben]

 

There are no "HR procedures" to consider.

Falvine could have chosen to make the call, to one of a handful of minor league MANAGERS in their system,. I think not making that call demonstrates a lack of experience and judgement...and lacks class.

It's that simple. Feel free to diasagree, obviously.

But HIPAA and "HR" are irrelevant at best, and lame corporate gobbledygook at worst.

 

Thyrlos was making HIPPA an issue. 

So what if the contract ran to whatever date. There is no obligation to renew it.

 

If Doug is still technically under contract (be it for one more day, 10 more days, or another 45 days), the team needs to follow set standards within their structure. Perhaps it isn't the "good ol' boy" way to do it (not that Terry Ryan/Andy MacPhail did it that way every time either, but don't tell Souhan), but it's the way that helps to avoid lawsuits. Baseball settles a lot of employment suits every year because of someone stepping outside of set HR boundaries, but you just don't hear about them because usually what happens is that the step is made for someone like Doug and it costs the team when Jim from accounting is dismissed without the same treatment and can sue for damages. While we talk about the on field/analytical stuff, that's another part of the influx of business school educated front office types that have become desired - their experience helping to run an actual business and not lose money for reasons that could be avoided.

[Vanimal46]

 

It has already been stated a few times in this thread; Doug wasn't the clubhouse batboy, he managed one of a few minor league teams affiliated with the Twins. So, can we stop with the "every firing is a poor decision hyperbole?". It isn't about "fame," it's about somebody who had given years of time with the organization and had reached a high level position. Whether you agree or disagree with his coaching or development approach, he deserved better than a call from Steil and no elaboration on why he wasn't being retained. The same applies to Rasmussen and any other long tenured, high ranking individual who is released from the organization. 

 

Again, I don't understand why DM deserves better than a call from his direct supervisor. Steil has confidence from the FO to make hiring and firing decisions in the minor leagues. They don't need to micromanage every process. 

DM's tenure, or any other person's tenure with the team who gets let go, shouldn't make a difference. 

[Squirrel]

 

Again, I don't understand why DM deserves better than a call from his direct supervisor. Steil has confidence from the FO to make hiring and firing decisions in the minor leagues. They don't need to micromanage every process. 

DM's tenure, or any other person's tenure with the team who gets let go, shouldn't make a difference. 

And on top of that, we don't know how this decision was made ... both to not renew DM's contract and how to tell him. I'm sure Falvey had a say. I'm sure he weighed all the opinions and evaluations and had a part in the discussion ... to what extent is unknown; he could have simply 'signed off' on the decision or could have had a deciding vote to non-tenure the contract. But who did he rely on most for information as to how and what DM was going about his job? Probably from Steil, I would think. And who did Steil get his information from? What criteria was he using for his evaluations and who had input into that? Who else would provide that information? Maybe other MiL coordinators? I'm not sure the hierarchy, but Falvey received his information most likely from Steil, and there was something there that wasn't falling into place. So, in the end a decision was made. Did Steil agree with the decision? Did he think it wrong? Was he the one recommending it? How much discussion was there, if there was any? We don't know and I'm not sure how detailed an answer one is entitled to. And whether or not one thinks Falvey should have made the phone call, maybe he should have, or perhaps the one to best do it is the one who has worked with DM the most, the one who had the best relationship with him, the one who was his boss. I don't know ... but I don't think this was classless in how it was handled one iota. Maybe not the right decision for some or in the end, but I don't think it was wrong or classless, either. And if Falvey had been the one to deliver the news, maybe DM would have called out Pohlad for not delivering the news? Again, don't know. And don't care, at this point. This kind of thing isn't easy to do and isn't easy to take. And second guessing doesn't make it better, either.

[Obsvr]

15 pages about a fired Class A manager?

 

GOOD GRIEF.  

 

[old nurse]

 

If Doug is still technically under contract (be it for one more day, 10 more days, or another 45 days), the team needs to follow set standards within their structure. Perhaps it isn't the "good ol' boy" way to do it (not that Terry Ryan/Andy MacPhail did it that way every time either, but don't tell Souhan), but it's the way that helps to avoid lawsuits. Baseball settles a lot of employment suits every year because of someone stepping outside of set HR boundaries, but you just don't hear about them because usually what happens is that the step is made for someone like Doug and it costs the team when Jim from accounting is dismissed without the same treatment and can sue for damages. While we talk about the on field/analytical stuff, that's another part of the influx of business school educated front office types that have become desired - their experience helping to run an actual business and not lose money for reasons that could be avoided.

He was told his contract would not be renewed. Not fired, dismissed or anything nefarious. If he was told days, weeks or months before the contract was over it really does not matter.  In baseball  employment there is no way he falls into a protected class. With free will employment in both Minnesota and Florida there really does not have to be a reason.