Don't tell me you're trying to win

[TKGuy]

There have been reports by beat writers and some Twins bloggers that the front office has stated that it is still trying to win this season.  I for one was OK with the Twins flipping Garcia and trading Kintzler, but after doing so, don't insult my intelligence and say you're trying to win this season.  You waved the white flag, which is exactly what you should have done, but I have no idea what you're doing at this point.

 

Why in the world do we still have Colon, Gibson, Gee and maybe Santiago taking innings away  I know Colon threw a CG last night, but he is not part of the future.  Why in the world is Garver and/or Vargas at AAA and you are forced to play Adrianza at first base?  You have Slegers, Gonsalves and Romero in the minors.  Berrios was not good his first time in the majors.  Why not have these guys get some experience this year if they are going to factor into next year? It can't be like the old regime when Carl was in charge that was trying to save money down the road.  You paid Garcia's remaining contract for one start to get a better prospect from the Yankees.  Its time to get some of these guys some experience in the majors.

Don't wave the white flag and then let the retreads continue to play.  If you wanted to win, you should have kept Garcia then, its a whole lot better than seeing Kyle Gibson and Dillon Gee on the mound.

 

I have been with this front office's moves, even at the trading deadline, but what in the heck are we doing now.

[mlhouse]

I have been asking this question from day 1.  The early season was just a fooler and we pretended we were a contender despite the fact that our overall statistics matched a bottom 5 team, not a playoff one. 

 

ANd as you point out, look at the lost opportunities that we could have worked on this season, rather than next.

[yarnivek1972]

Gee appears to be the long man. Who is he taking innings from? Everyone else who has pitched that role this year has been terrible.

[DJSim22]

Romero will hit his innings limit.  Gee is the long man.  A couple guys will probably be up in September. 

 

You really want an FO to publicly say they are trying to lose?  And I don't believe they are trying to lose, they are just being smart enough to trade off pieces because the chances for the playoffs are minimal. 

[DocBauer]

I believe winning helps breed winning. And with so many young players establishing themselves, and being a fan, I do want the team to keep winning.

 

And it's been, what, a week since the trades were made? There will, probably, be another move or two coming, (Giminez and Belisle probably). There will be others coming up in August and September.

 

Colon is not long term. He probably isn't back next season. Doesn't erase the fact he pitched very well last night and solid the game before. What if he isn't done and was the 4th or 5th SP next season and solid while buying time? Would that be so awful?

 

I'm just saying, the 2 trades made aren't just a white flag, IMO.

[Brandon Warne]

They're going to try trade Belisle, Colon and other guys like that in August. 

[glunn]

I think that the FO is trying to win in the short run and the long run.

 

There is a lot of discussion about the Twins and other teams waving the white flag by trading veterans for prospects before the trade deadline. That does not mean that the FO and the players necessarily stop focusing on how to win tomorrow's game and the game after that.

 

[Otwins]

I don't think they can go full blown minor league players when they are 3 1/2 out of the second wild card. The players that have played hard and not quit deserve that. It would be like punting on third down. Now in September it may be a different story

[KirbyDome89]

They're going to try trade Belisle, Colon and other guys like that in August.

Who the **** is trading for Colon? I agree with the OP, if they're going to call it a season (they have) then get guys up and let them player more than a few games in September when rosters expand. We've watched poor baseball the last 5+ seasons and the only thing worse than another losing year is the FO pretending they're building a winning team by running out any and every waiver wire retread they can find and playing guys out of position.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Who the **** is trading for Colon? 

 

He's making the big-league minimum and has gotten better with each start. Worse pitchers have been traded in August for sure.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah Colon won't get an exciting return, but if he keeps pitching like he has his last 2 starts or better, he's tradeable for sure.

[terrydactyls]

If the Twins can trade Colon for a lottery pick in high-A ball, then this front office should be commended for its foresight in signing him. If they can't trade him, oh well, it was worth a shot. There are still two months left in the season. Let's see how the front office performs over that entire time before criticizing their efforts.

 

Yours truly

Momma Falvine

[KirbyDome89]

 

He's making the big-league minimum and has gotten better with each start. Worse pitchers have been traded in August for sure.

He's rocking an ERA over 7 on the year, his MN ERA is over 5 even after that magnificent complete game, he was blasted in his brief minor league stint, and he nearly retired a month ago. There is no reason to keep handing him the ball, even if some desperate team does somehow arrive at the decision to trade for him. Whatever poor return he brings back isn't as valuable as the innings he's being given.  

[drjim]

He's rocking an ERA over 7 on the year, his MN ERA is over 5 even after that magnificent complete game, he was blasted in his brief minor league stint, and he nearly retired a month ago. There is no reason to keep handing him the ball, even if some desperate team does somehow arrive at the decision to trade for him. Whatever poor return he brings back isn't as valuable as the innings he's being given.

He's really not blocking anyone that needs the innings instead. There are guys from the minors that could slide in, but the front office is not holding them down because of Colon.

[Otto von Ballpark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWPTU_krTY

[Otto von Ballpark]

Oh, is this not a playlist thread?

[strumdatjaguar]

The FO is in sellers mode but bordering on "wait and see" mode in the event the Twins go on a winning streak and get much closer to a wild card berth!   They have to react to current reality - but reality can change!

[whydidnt]

Have to agree with the original post. You don't trade Kintzler and Garcia if you think there is any sort of a chance of making the playoffs. They made the decision on 7/31, I don't think it was the wrong decision, either. So, now let's get on with things and move on from these guys that won't help the Twins next year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't think they can go full blown minor league players when they are 3 1/2 out of the second wild card. The players that have played hard and not quit deserve that. It would be like punting on third down. Now in September it may be a different story

The thing is that I'm moderately confident that Gonsalves will not be worse than Gibson and/or Colon.

 

And, god forbid, he might actually surprise people and be good. It has happened before.

[KirbyDome89]

 

He's really not blocking anyone that needs the innings instead. There are guys from the minors that could slide in, but the front office is not holding them down because of Colon.

If there are guys who could be getting innings but aren't because the Twins keep handing starts to Colon, then yes, he's blocking them. 

[Thrylos]

 

There have been reports by beat writers and some Twins bloggers that the front office has stated that it is still trying to win this season.  

 

[...]

 

Why in the world do we still have Colon, Gibson, Gee and maybe Santiago taking innings away  I know Colon threw a CG last night, but he is not part of the future.  Why in the world is Garver and/or Vargas at AAA and you are forced to play Adrianza at first base?  You have Slegers, Gonsalves and Romero in the minors.  Berrios was not good his first time in the majors.  Why not have these guys get some experience this year if they are going to factor into next year?

 

 

I think that you are answering your own question here...  They are playing the veterans because they are still trying to win.  If they were not trying to win, they would had gotten rid of all veterans, starting with Dozier, Gimenez, and Santana, and let the kids play. 

 

Re: Adrianza:  He was at 1B because Sano was day to day.  Do you want to DL Sano (and decrease the Twins' probability of winning) and get Garver up? 

 

The reason they are doing this is because they are trying to win and they think that the veterans will give them higher probability of winning.

Do I agree with that?  Nope.  But that's why they are doing it. They are playing for 2017 and not for 2018.

[Brandon Warne]

 

He's really not blocking anyone that needs the innings instead. There are guys from the minors that could slide in, but the front office is not holding them down because of Colon.

 

Exactly. The only person he's "blocking" is Slegers, and they could have given him a chance anytime now over Gibson if they felt like it. Odds are, they aren't completely sold on a soft-tossing tall righty who is more of a GB guy than anything else.

[Brandon Warne]

 

I think that you are answering your own question here...  They are playing the veterans because they are still trying to win.  If they were not trying to win, they would had gotten rid of all veterans, starting with Dozier, Gimenez, and Santana, and let the kids play. 

 

Re: Adrianza:  He was at 1B because Sano was day to day.  Do you want to DL Sano (and decrease the Twins' probability of winning) and get Garver up? 

 

The reason they are doing this is because they are trying to win and they think that the veterans will give them higher probability of winning.

Do I agree with that?  Nope.  But that's why they are doing it. They are playing for 2017 and not for 2018.

 

How does this make any sense if they traded Kintzler and Garcia, then?

[Taildragger8791]

 

How does this make any sense if they traded Kintzler and Garcia, then?

 

Just because they accepted that this team won't contend for a championship this year (jettising short-term players with trade value) doesn't mean they aren't maximizing the roster they still have in order to win games now. Otherwise they'd be tearing down the whole roster, benching vets, and outright tanking. None of that has happened yet.

[Old Twins Cap]

Pitching is an incredibly risky human activity, and takes a toll.  Rather than throwing young guys when they are at their innings' limit, you use veteran arms.

 

Twins have a better chance of hanging around in games throwing the Vets, their young guys don't over-exert or injure themselves,  the team keeps a culture focused on the right things, and the MiLB'ers get to experience a playoff run on their home squads.

 

It may be a curiosity to feed the Slegers, Gonsalves and Romeros to the wolves, but from the long view, probably not a smart move.  I think that's what the FO believes.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Just because they accepted that this team won't contend for a championship this year (jettising short-term players with trade value) doesn't mean they aren't maximizing the roster they still have in order to win games now. Otherwise they'd be tearing down the whole roster, benching vets, and outright tanking. None of that has happened yet.

 

I don't understand what that means at all. They won't tear down the whole roster because for the most part it's young and they'll never do the last two things. 

[Taildragger8791]

 

I don't understand what that means at all. They won't tear down the whole roster because for the most part it's young and they'll never do the last two things. 

 

 It may be partly PR speak, because openly stating the intent to lose is ridiculous, but so far there are no signs that they aren't maximizing the pieces they still have. There have been very few rookies called up other than for temporary injury fill-ins. Even Vargas can't hold onto a roster spot. Dozier/Mauer/Grossman/Gimenez are still solidifed in their spots despite being average or worse at their positions. They also retained Santana & Dozier who are far more important and improve the chances to win next year. All they've done so far is let go of a couple lame duck players and a non-prospect that would collectively account for 2-3 WAR the rest of the season, and in exchange they got 4 pitchers who might actually help this team in the near future as the core matures. If the front office wasn't focused on winning games then I'd expect to see some sort of turnover and disruption of the roster & starting lineups, but thus far I don't.

[old nurse]

 

I think that you are answering your own question here...  They are playing the veterans because they are still trying to win.  If they were not trying to win, they would had gotten rid of all veterans, starting with Dozier, Gimenez, and Santana, and let the kids play. 

 

Re: Adrianza:  He was at 1B because Sano was day to day.  Do you want to DL Sano (and decrease the Twins' probability of winning) and get Garver up? 

 

The reason they are doing this is because they are trying to win and they think that the veterans will give them higher probability of winning.

Do I agree with that?  Nope.  But that's why they are doing it. They are playing for 2017 and not for 2018.

Being up now would increase Slegers chance for success?   AAA is not necessary in the development of pitchers?  What starter with number three type ceiling came directly from AA?

[old nurse]

 

 

 It may be partly PR speak, because openly stating the intent to lose is ridiculous, but so far there are no signs that they aren't maximizing the pieces they still have. There have been very few rookies called up other than for temporary injury fill-ins. Even Vargas can't hold onto a roster spot. Dozier/Mauer/Grossman/Gimenez are still solidifed in their spots despite being average or worse at their positions. They also retained Santana & Dozier who are far more important and improve the chances to win next year. All they've done so far is let go of a couple lame duck players and a non-prospect that would collectively account for 2-3 WAR the rest of the season, and in exchange they got 4 pitchers who might actually help this team in the near future as the core matures. If the front office wasn't focused on winning games then I'd expect to see some sort of turnover and disruption of the roster & starting lineups, but thus far I don't.

You need  to check you statistics for the year comparing backup catchers and DH.

Varga doesn't draw walks, strikes out way too much to be more than a AAAA hitter.

[Taildragger8791]

 

You need  to check you statistics for the year comparing backup catchers and DH.

Varga doesn't draw walks, strikes out way too much to be more than a AAAA hitter.

 

That was kind of my point regarding Vargas, and you could probably extend that to Park now that he's hitting a little bit. They're clearly not as good as Mauer & Grossman and thus don't play, even though they are running out of time to develop and be evaluated at the major league level. And even though the odds are slim they have the type of potential impact bat you want at DH/1B.

 

Regarding Gimenez, he's about what you'd expect for a backup catcher and that's fine. I wasn't criticizing him so much as I was pointing out there's an obvious opportunity to break in Garver there, because he certainly can't do any worse.

 

Examples like this demonstrate how the roster is being configured for best performance rather than evaluation/development for next year. Personally, I'd like to see that change within a few weeks if they haven't climbed back into the wildcard race.