Possible Trade Partners for Dozier

[LaBombo]

 

2013? Really? The Twins have had a top farm system for the last four years and that farm system is now delivering at the ML level. The ML team had to play someone 7m in 2013 means they weren't rebuilding?

 

You seem to want the team to have all the prospects up at the same time in the same window, which doesn't happen.  But since you don't think we've started to rebuild, where are the trade Castro threads? He's a vet on a three year deal. We should trade him. 

 

You argued that the Twins have been diligently committed to rebuilding during the past several seasons, and I gave an example of a conscious decision they made to act very differently from a typical rebuilding team. I'm not sure how your rhetorical question is supposed to refute that.

 

Your second paragraph makes it clear that you feel that my acceptance of the possibility of a Dozier trade and my disagreement with some previous personnel decisions by the Twins' front office equates to unrealistic and bizarre expectations for a total roster reconstruction, but you're not explaining why.

 

And with regard to the Castro example, he would likely net relatively little in a trade, but more importantly, he serves what I guess the Twins regard as a fairly critical role in working with a pitching staff that ideally will be largely composed of youngsters who need help from a veteran behind the plate.

 

Rebuilding isn't a single-minded purging of age and/or salary, and again, I'm not seeing where I've suggested or implied it should be.

[gunnarthor]

So, by signing Castro they aren't making the same mistake as they did with Hammer? Lucky.  

 

You're arguing that the Twins have refused to rebuild. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

So, by signing Castro they aren't making the same mistake as they did with Hammer? Lucky.  

 

You're arguing that the Twins have refused to rebuild. 

 

I didn't see them sign guys to flip, or trade many veterans (good or bad, for anything) or really do anything that looked like what the Astros or Cubs did at all. Indeed, rather than flip Hughes, they extended him! They were very clear, they were competing. The Cubs and Astros admitted they were rebuilding. And their actions showed it. 

[LaBombo]

 

So, by signing Castro they aren't making the same mistake as they did with Hammer? Lucky.  

 

You're arguing that the Twins have refused to rebuild. 

 

I don't see Castro and Willingham as having remotely similar value to the franchise as either players or trade chips.

 

And by your own all-or-nothing standard, you're essentially arguing that the Twins never chose to retain veteran contribution over the prospect potential it could have brought in trade.

[gunnarthor]

 

I didn't see them sign guys to flip, or trade many veterans (good or bad, for anything) or really do anything that looked like what the Astros or Cubs did at all. Indeed, rather than flip Hughes, they extended him! They were very clear, they were competing. The Cubs and Astros admitted they were rebuilding. And their actions showed it. 

Eh. True, they could have traded Hughes but they kept him for less AAV than Nolasco, while being a few years younger.  But complaining that they couldn't trade 5m guys like Suzuki or 7m guys like Hammer is useless. Those guys had no trade value and were just holding the fort. The Twins, like the Cubs and Astros, did sign pitchers in the 4/45 bucket. These type of guys - Santana, Nolasco, Garza, Feldman, Jackson, IIRC - well, results varied on all. They did trade away nearly all vets - Liriano, Slowey, Revere, Span, Morneau, Doumit, etc, etc, so that's a false statement on your part. 

 

But if you want to argue that not trading Hughes means they weren't rebuilding, fine. You're wrong. If you want to argue they could have rebuilt better/differently, sure. But you and I have always viewed things differently. 2012-2015 went pretty much like I thought it would. 2016 was the only surprising year to me.

[old nurse]

 

I didn't see them sign guys to flip, or trade many veterans (good or bad, for anything) or really do anything that looked like what the Astros or Cubs did at all. Indeed, rather than flip Hughes, they extended him! They were very clear, they were competing. The Cubs and Astros admitted they were rebuilding. And their actions showed it. 

Doumit brought back Gilmartin

Abad brought back Light

Rich Harden tried to come back

Kendrys Morales  brought back Stephan Pryor

Willingham brought back Adams. That is about what he would have brought back at any point in his career. See Corey Broen and Henry Rodriguez

Jamey Carroll brought back somebody named Cash.

 

Tim Stauffer, Mike Pelfrey,  Deduno and anybody else signed to play never got good enough for anyone to offer the Twins anything for them.

 

Luhnow's trades netted what? Preception versus reality. Luhnow has been active, but not doing much more than shuffling bodies on rosters. I suppose some people would find that exciting, but he did not improve his team.

[LaBombo]

 

Eh. True, they could have traded Hughes but they kept him for less AAV than Nolasco, while being a few years younger.  But complaining that they couldn't trade 5m guys like Suzuki or 7m guys like Hammer is useless. Those guys had no trade value and were just holding the fort. The Twins, like the Cubs and Astros, did sign pitchers in the 4/45 bucket. These type of guys - Santana, Nolasco, Garza, Feldman, Jackson, IIRC - well, results varied on all. They did trade away nearly all vets - Liriano, Slowey, Revere, Span, Morneau, Doumit, etc, etc, so that's a false statement on your part. 

 

But if you want to argue that not trading Hughes means they weren't rebuilding, fine. You're wrong. If you want to argue they could have rebuilt better/differently, sure. But you and I have always viewed things differently. 2012-2015 went pretty much like I thought it would. 2016 was the only surprising year to me.

 

So you're asserting that Willingham had no trade value, but with no rational argument to back that up, it seems like the sort of claim you've reverse engineered solely from the premise that if he did have value, the Twins would have traded him, because, as you also asserted, they were rebuilding.

 

But that's small potatoes compared to your claim that the dumping of Morneau, Liriano, etc when they were at or near the point of zero value to the franchise represented any actual commitment to rebuilding.  They were not even remotely in the same vein as the trades of Revere and Span.

 

And it's tiny potatoes compared to implying that those minuscule moves are relevant in any way to the potentially franchise-altering trades of Dozier or Santana.

[Doomtints]

The Brewers are contending and their middle infield might be the worst in the league.

 

The Brewers have a couple of serviceable pitching prospects. 

 

Brandon Woodruff, projected #4/#5. Might be ready now, but more likely ready at the start of next year. He is moving up through the minors very fast, so there is something that the Brewers love about him. (Best value).

 

Luis Ortiz, #4/#5 ceiling, but probably a heater bullpen guy. Would be ready mid-next year at best.

 

Josh Hader - #4/#5 ceiling, realistically a bullpen arm. Worst case a LOOGY. Should be ready when the rosters expand. (Quickest value).

 

Tommy Milone. (haha)

 

In any case, the first three names here can't be worse than what the Twins already have.

[gunnarthor]

 

So you're asserting that Willingham had no trade value, but with no rational argument to back that up, it seems like the sort of claim you've reverse engineered solely from the premise that if he did have value, the Twins would have traded him, because, as you also asserted, they were rebuilding.

.

? As opposed to your deep knowledge? If you were around back then you'd remember that trading Hammer was brought up. Steve Adams at mlbtraderumors said his value was a "Sean Gilmartin type" - a minor league swing man.  Feel free to think that because they didn't pull the trigger on that, they weren't rebuilding.

[LaBombo]

 

? As opposed to your deep knowledge? If you were around back then you'd remember that trading Hammer was brought up. Steve Adams at mlbtraderumors said his value was a "Sean Gilmartin type" - a minor league swing man.  Feel free to think that because they didn't pull the trigger on that, they weren't rebuilding.

 

I have no idea what the hostility is about, but your insistence that Willingham and his 2012 3.4 WAR held trade value equal to that of Ryan Doumit and his 2013 0.0 WAR to support your defense of the Twins' alleged rebuilding effort tells me that we are done here.

[Doomtints]

 

I have no idea what the hostility is about, but your insistence that Willingham and his 2012 3.4 WAR held trade value equal to that of Ryan Doumit and his 2013 0.0 WAR to support your defense of the Twins' alleged rebuilding effort tells me that we are done here.

 

Willingham was traded in 2014. Where is 2012 coming from?

Doumit had a higher WAR with the Twins in 2013 than Willingham and commanded half the salary....

[LaBombo]

 

Willingham was traded in 2014. Where is 2012 coming from?

Doumit had a higher WAR with the Twins in 2013 than Willingham and commanded half the salary....

 

Willingham was regarded as a potential trade target going into the 2012 winter meetings when he clearly had actual trade value, but Ryan stated publicly that he would not even listen to offers.

 

Doumit and Willngham had both cratered prior to their trades, and managed fewer than 250 combined post-Twins plate appearances before they were out of baseball. They were not dealt, they were disposed of. That's not embracing a commitment to rebuilding, it's just cleaning up the mess left over from not rebuilding.

 

 

[Doomtints]

I don't remember that. What I remember is every team saying he was "cooked" and that the Twins were fools for getting him on a 3-year contract. The narrative was that the Twins knew he would only last 1 year but they could only get him to sign for a 3 year deal.

 

I remember this vividly as it is this story that got "cooked" into my player description vocabulary.

[Ryan Atkins]

 

I don't think the Rangers are likely to trade pitching away. Well, perhaps I should say it would probably be a big mistake. The Rangers rarely have trouble scoring runs. They almost always have bad pitching though.

 

Agree.

 

I live in the DFW area and even though I follow the Twins more than the Rangers, all the sports talk is about the Rangers (well, actually it is 95% Cowboys even in the summer).

 

Nevertheless, I can attest that the Rangers main problem right now is pitching and I can all but guarantee they would not give one thought to trading a high-ranked pitching prospect for Dozier or any other middle tier non-pitcher vet.

[Doomtints]

 

Agree.

 

I live in the DFW area and even though I follow the Twins more than the Rangers, all the sports talk is about the Rangers (well, actually it is 95% Cowboys even in the summer).

 

Nevertheless, I can attest that the Rangers main problem right now is pitching and I can all but guarantee they would not give one thought to trading a high-ranked pitching prospect for Dozier or any other middle tier non-pitcher vet.

 

When I moved to Dallas from the Twin Cities, I was surprised by the way they did sports content. In the Twin Cities (at least back then), although they only talked about local teams they at least showed the scores for all games on the screen. Dallas media didn't bother with any of that.

[yarnivek1972]

When I moved to Dallas from the Twin Cities, I was surprised by the way they did sports content. In the Twin Cities (at least back then), although they only talked about local teams they at least showed the scores for all games on the screen. Dallas media didn't bother with any of that.

The sports seasons in Texas are football season and spring football.

[Ryan Atkins]

Also, for whatever reason, the Twins historically have not conducted many trades with the Texas rangers. Only 7 trades in their history (not including any Washington Senator non-sense).

 

Maybe that will change under new regime since they have ties to the Rangers.

 

The last time the Twins made a trade with Texas was when they brought back Eddie Guardado in exchange for a Hamburger.

[clone52]

 

I am not a huge fan of Mauer, but unless Sano moves to 1B, the twins best 1B prospect in in A ball this year. And Kennys is terrible he has a few good streaks but he in no way should be considered part of the future.

So unless something happens at that position I see the Twins offering Joe a 3 year contract for around 20 million and he probably would take it to be a part time 1B and DH. IMO

 

Regurgitating an old thread.  I'm not anti-Mauer, but if they did let him go, they'd have other options.  One would be moving Kepler to 1B and flling out the OF elsewhere (Granite, Grossman, Rooker, whoever develops in 2 years).  Really, though, its way to early to think about 2019.

[amjgt]

I'm just going to continue pretending that Bellinger was never in the Dozier conversation. It hurts too much to believe otherwise.

[drjim]

 

I'm just going to continue pretending that Bellinger was never in the Dozier conversation. It hurts too much to believe otherwise.

 

Bellinger and Urias was the best offer. At least they dodged the Urias problem by passing on that package. Twins demanded a third piece tho.

[drivlikejehu]

 

I'm just going to continue pretending that Bellinger was never in the Dozier conversation. It hurts too much to believe otherwise.

 

I don't see why you would have to pretend, Bellinger was never on the table, or even close to the table.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Bellinger and Urias was the best offer. At least they dodged the Urias problem by passing on that package. Twins demanded a third piece tho.

I heard we were holding out for the cryogenically preserved head of Sandy Koufax too, but the Dodgers balked because he's not dead yet.

[jorgenswest]

Bellinger and Urias was the best offer. At least they dodged the Urias problem by passing on that package. Twins demanded a third piece tho.

I never saw any confirmed (from multiple sources) report that it was more than DeLeon.

[FargoFanMan]

Btw... the Twins are in first place. I don't see them trading Dozier unless Gordon is putting up video game numbers and making every play hit to the left side. Just sayin...

[Guest]

While Forsythe has scuffled for the Dodgers, he hasn't been their primary 2B this year anyway. Dodgers 2B in total have a 123 wRC+, 2nd in the NL and 5th in MLB, versus 91 for the Twins. Utley has a 96 versus Dozier's 97. Chris Taylor has the second most starts at the position and a 148 wRC+. Enrique Hernandez now has a 100 wRC+ over 3 seasons with the Dodgers in a utility role too.

Dozier has been solid so far but has shown his HR binge was exactly that and not a new norm, I am not even sure if he is a great target anymore. If the Dodgers want offense, they might be better off acquiring an outfielder or even a first baseman. Although they have a team non-pitcher 107 wRC+, tied for 3rd in the NL / 5th in MLB, so they may not yet think offense is a major area of need.

Dozier has 13 HRs after 74 games. That's a 29 HR pace.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Dozier has 13 HRs after 74 games. That's a 29 HR pace.

Holy old post, batman!

 

In any case, 29 is notably less than 42, so I am not sure of your point.

 

Dozier's had a nice couple weeks here too, but Dodgers 2B still top Twins 2B in wRC+, 124 to 105. Only a game behind the Astros for best record in baseball. I doubt they are regretting not making that trade.

[Guest]

Doumit brought back Gilmartin

Abad brought back Light

Rich Harden tried to come back

Kendrys Morales  brought back Stephan Pryor

Willingham brought back Adams. That is about what he would have brought back at any point in his career. See Corey Broen and Henry Rodriguez

Jamey Carroll brought back somebody named Cash.

 

Tim Stauffer, Mike Pelfrey,  Deduno and anybody else signed to play never got good enough for anyone to offer the Twins anything for them.

 

Luhnow's trades netted what? Preception versus reality. Luhnow has been active, but not doing much more than shuffling bodies on rosters. I suppose some people would find that exciting, but he did not improve his team.

Off the top of my head, Luhnow has traded for Gattis, McCann, Fiers and Giles. They all have value. He also got Gomez, who didn't pan out, and signed several affordable free agents who have helped the team. It's much more than shuffling bodies.

[Guest]

Holy old post, batman!

In any case, 29 is notably less than 42, so I am not sure of your point.

Dozier's had a nice couple weeks here too, but Dodgers 2B still top Twins 2B in wRC+, 124 to 105. Only a game behind the Astros for best record in baseball. I doubt they are regretting not making that trade.

Yes, Robin, 29 homers is fewer than 42. Dozier must have lost all value.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Dozier's had a nice couple weeks here too, but Dodgers 2B still top Twins 2B in wRC+, 124 to 105. Only a game behind the Astros for best record in baseball. I doubt they are regretting not making that trade.

 

Logan Forsythe is putting up Buxtonesque numbers at the plate right now. Is his defense that good?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yes, Robin, 29 homers is fewer than 42. Dozier must have lost all value.

C'mon, I clearly never said that Dozier "lost all value". I said he returned to his pre-2016 level of performance, which is solid but notably less than his 2016 level. And at that level, he makes far less sense for the Dodgers. They have pretty well been vindicated so far in not giving up multiple top prospects for the available second basemen last winter, right? As much as the Twins have been vindicated in not trading straight up for De Leon. It was a smart non-trade on both sides.