Time for Gibson to go/Gibson optioned to AAA

[Doomtints]

Several lessons to learn here:

 

Sinker ballers are either good or terrible with not much in between. 

 

Lesson for front office: don't sign a sinker baller unless you have the other four SP slots settled. (Granted, Gibson now goes way back in the org, back to when pitching was better. But when the wheels fell off he should have been made available to trade.)

 

Lesson for Molitor: Always put your best defense out there with a sinker ball pitcher on the mound. Definitely the wrong day to have two backups in the OF. May want to stick Sano at 1B on these days while you're at it!

 

Lesson for fans: As bad as he has been, one has to show patience with pitchers like this. They tend to be terrible for long stretches. As much as some of you want to throw him under the bus right now, in reality all pitchers like him need a bit more time. I would only be concerned if he still has not turned the corner in another 2-3 starts. Cooler weather could be affecting his movement.

[jimbo92107]

 

I wonder if the front office is considering switching Duffey's and Gibson's roles on the roster.

 

It's not as if the Twins have any other decent options unless they DL Gibson, which would allow them to recall Mejia.

This is still a bad team rebuilding. Why not DL Gibson for a few weeks, then bring up Felix Jorge for a few starts? He's on the 40, he's #6 in the system, and he's a control pitcher. 

[yarnivek1972]

 

Several lessons to learn here:

 

Sinker ballers are either good or terrible with not much in between.

 

Lesson for front office: don't sign a sinker baller unless you have the other four SP slots settled. (Granted, Gibson now goes way back in the org, back to when pitching was better.)

 

Lesson for Molitor: Always put your best defense out there with a sinker ball pitcher on the mound. Definitely the wrong day to have two backups in the OF.

 

Lesson for fans: As bad as he has been, one has to show patience with pitchers like this. They tend to be terrible for long stretches. As much as some of you want to throw him under the bus right now, in reality all pitchers like him need a bit more time. I would only be concerned if he still has not turn the corner in another 2-3 starts.

That is an extremely contradictory statement.  With a sinkerball pitcher going, the prevailing logic would be that you CAN sacrifice OUTFIELD defense for offense as long as you have good defenders in the INFIELD.  Which, they did.

 

As for the second piece, he's been terrible for a season and a half.  How much more patience does he deserve?

[drjim]

 

Boy, I hope you're wrong. It makes no sense to give him more rope at the MLB level given his performance. The timing is good - with the off days we can roll with a 4 man rotation for a couple of weeks or 2 plus turns around the rotation. Perfect time to see if Gibson and/or Mejia can straighten out in AAA while getting a 2 or 3 start look see at Berrios. Thursday is the off day. Do it then. At least do something before Berrios next start, which I think is tomorrow.  I would also be happy with them starting Duffy Friday.     

 

Berrios is likely to get the next start when they go to 5.

 

I just don't see how Gibson going to AAA does anything. If they had clear alternatives they might have a quicker trigger, but they are probably better off seeing if he can right himself.

[yarnivek1972]

Why are people suggesting putting Gibson on the DL?  Contrary to popular belief, teams can and do get punished by the league for faking injuries.  Besides, Gibson has at least one option left.

[Doomtints]

 

Besides, Gibson has at least one option left.

 

How? He was signed at age 22, has been at A+ or above since 2010, and was added to the roster in 2012. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

How? He was signed at age 22, has been at A+ or above since 2010, and was added to the roster in 2012. 

Gibson was only optioned in one season of his pro career so far (2013), so he indeed has two option years left.  A great reference for this is the transaction section of MILB.com player pages (desktop version, not mobile):

 

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=502043#/career/R/pitching/2017/ALL

 

Note he wasn't added to the 40-man until November 2012, so seasons prior to that didn't require an option.  And he has been on the MLB roster or DL from opening day 2014 until today, so no options in that time either.  Just 2013.

 

When he hits 5 years service time, he will be able to refuse an optional assignment, but that can't happen until later in the 2018 season (he is around 3.5 years service time right now).

[Guest]

How were Stewart and Gonsalves misused or miscast?

Stewart: miscast as good.

 

Gonsalves: appears that he could be another in a long line of minor league pitchers who miss significant time because of injury. Totally my perception and I have no facts, but it seems that (1) at least two-thirds of Twins higher talent minor league pitchers miss significant time with injuries and (2) other teams, while also having injuries, do better at keeping young players healthy.

 

Top of my head list of injured pitchers:

 

Jay

Meyer

Gonsalves

Burdi

Thorpe

Reed

Jones (reliever)

Romero

Cederoth

Chargois

Wimmers (when he was a top prospect)

Gibson (when he was a top prospect)

[yarnivek1972]

 

Stewart: miscast as good.

Gonsalves: appears that he could be another in a long line of minor league pitchers who miss significant time because of injury. Totally my perception and I have no facts, but it seems that (1) at least two-thirds of Twins higher talent minor league pitchers miss significant time with injuries and (2) other teams, while also having injuries, do better at keeping young players healthy.

Top of my head list of injured pitchers:

Jay
Meyer
Gonsalves
Burdi
Thorpe
Reed
Jones (reliever)
Romero
Cederoth
Chargois
Wimmers (when he was a top prospect)
Gibson (when he was a top prospect)

 

That would seem to suggest that the Twins player development staff isn't following a program that will lead to producing successful MLB players.  It's definitely a problem area that Falvey and Levine need to address.  If you can't develop the majority of your core players, you have the results that we have seen the last half decade.

[beckmt]

I was one on this website advocating a non tender last winter.  Now we need to stick him in some low pressure situations and bring up some of the youngsters.  Let's move on with the rebuild.

[yarnivek1972]

 

I think it would be better to see if he can right himself in AAA, not causing problems at the MLB level. Nothing in his last 3 starts suggests that he's going to be able to flip the switch in one start. Look, you are probably right in predicting he'll get at least one more start at the MLB level. I hope he indeed does "flip the switch". I'm just very dubious that he can.I think Gibson needs 3-4 quality AAA starts in a row before he can be relied upon and we have at least two options with a better chance of giving the team a quality start or even a start that will go past 4 innings in Duffy and Berrios. He has options, he's pitching very poorly, and he's costing the team the chance to compete on the days he starts.   To me this is the exact scenario to send someone down and hope they can get back on track in a lower stress environment. I really think starting him here simply prolongs the inevitable. 

 

 

IMO the bigger problem is his short starts are costing the team a chance to compete on the days he DOESN'T start because the pen is overworked.  We saw what happened last year when guys were overworked.  Pressly, Tonkin, May.  All broke down last year.

[yarnivek1972]

 

I was one on this website advocating a non tender last winter.  Now we need to stick him in some low pressure situations and bring up some of the youngsters.  Let's move on with the rebuild.

 

As was I.  The problem is the only "youngsters" from the pitching side are Berrios and Mejia.  Unless you include Haley in that group, I guess - but he's only 6 months younger than Tyler Duffey.  I'd like to say that Haley couldn't be worse than Gibson, but yeah, he could be.  He has had 3 extended outings in which he's faced 14 batters or more.  He needed an average of more than 60 pitches to get 10-11 outs.  At his pace, he would have a hard time getting 5 innings in fewer than 100 pitches consistently, let alone more than 5.

[laloesch]

 

I was one on this website advocating a non tender last winter.  Now we need to stick him in some low pressure situations and bring up some of the youngsters.  Let's move on with the rebuild.

 

While I generally agree I would caution that unless Hughes picks it up we might have two difficult decisions ahead. 

[yarnivek1972]

 

While I generally agree I would caution that unless Hughes picks it up we might have two difficult decisions ahead. 

 

What decision is there to be made with Hughes? Do you really seeing the Pohlads eating the $38 million or so he has remaining on his contract?

[Dave The Dastardly]

 

Whew!  A very hot topic.  

 

A big part of the conundrum for the Twins is that, in addition to questions about their fifth starter (Mejia) and their fourth starter (Gibson), they have serious concerns about their third starter (Hughes).  Add to that, Berrios is not a guarantee to successfully replace any starter.  Hence there are 13 pitchers on the 25 man roster based on the expectation that starting pitching will break down.

 

Looking at the pitchers formerly on the roster, they have made good decisions in discarding Pelfrey, Nolasco, Milone, Dean, Albers, Meyer, etc.  They still need someone who can start and make it to the 6th inning.  

 

So the Twins have been bad at getting good pitchers, but they have been good at getting rid of bad pitchers.

I guess that's something to hang a baseball cap on.

[laloesch]

 

What decision is there to be made with Hughes? Do you really seeing the Pohlads eating the $38 million or so he has remaining on his contract?

 

No I don't expect the Pohlads to eat 38 million.  I could see them demoting him to the pen and in that case you have to callup someone to fill his spot (Berrios or Meija).  I just don't see the Twins demoting both Hughes and Gibson.  I'm not talking about DFA because that's not gonna happen IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What decision is there to be made with Hughes? Do you really seeing the Pohlads eating the $38 million or so he has remaining on his contract?

 

they pay that whether he pitches or not, right? 

 

I would have put him in the bullpen right away.....

[70charger]

 

Do you find yourself often getting excited about who the mop up guy in the pen is?

 

Because if so, boy have I got the roster for you!

[Mike Sixel]

 

Because if so, boy have I got the roster for you!

 

Nicely played.

[Vanimal46]

 

Because if so, boy have I got the roster for you!

 

Read this in Billy Mays' voice... Left with a smile. 

 

 

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

Because if so, boy have I got the roster for you!

 

http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-10-most-dangerous-star-wars-villains.jpeg

 

I find your lack of faith....totally understandable

[notoriousgod71]

 

So the Twins have been bad at getting good pitchers, but they have been good at getting rid of bad pitchers.

I guess that's something to hang a baseball cap on.

 

And good at replacing bad pitchers with bad pitchers. Or something.

[Guest]

I was one on this website advocating a non tender last winter.  Now we need to stick him in some low pressure situations and bring up some of the youngsters.  Let's move on with the rebuild.

And I thought he would be better based on supposed winter improvements. Credit to you, although I hope he turns around.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

How were Stewart and Gonsalves misused or miscast?

i wonder about that too... I do however wonder if Stewart and Gonsalves were improperly developed as I would expect one of both of them to be closer to MLB ready by now.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Several lessons to learn here:

 

Sinker ballers are either good or terrible with not much in between.

 

Lesson for front office: don't sign a sinker baller unless you have the other four SP slots settled. (Granted, Gibson now goes way back in the org, back to when pitching was better. But when the wheels fell off he should have been made available to trade.)

 

Lesson for Molitor: Always put your best defense out there with a sinker ball pitcher on the mound. Definitely the wrong day to have two backups in the OF. May want to stick Sano at 1B on these days while you're at it!

 

Lesson for fans: As bad as he has been, one has to show patience with pitchers like this. They tend to be terrible for long stretches. As much as some of you want to throw him under the bus right now, in reality all pitchers like him need a bit more time. I would only be concerned if he still has not turned the corner in another 2-3 starts. Cooler weather could be affecting his movement.

according to Fangraphs/PitchFX Gibson throws 2 seem, 4 seem, slider and curve. No split finger. I've made this statement before too, but come to find out I misread what I saw/listened to Bert too much.

 

To your point, Gibson is a quintessential Pitch To Contact pitcher with poor command. His only hope is to have the low BABIP, so yup put your best field out on his starts.

[Thrylos]

 

I believe I heard on the radio broadcast yesterday, that Gibson's opposing batting average thru the order first time, is barely over .100..........second time thru over .400.............. bullpen or down to Triple A, as clear as it get's to me  

 

First time is .205.  Interestingly enough, the third time is less than the second time, But DickN2I failed to mentioned that.

 

N = 34, 30, and 11 ABs.   Pretty much the definition of an insignificant sample size.   Career-wise it is .268, .296 and .260 for Gibson (1st, 2nd, & 3rd time)

 

The other thing that DickN2I failed to mention is that it is the same situation with Santiago (.125, .324) & Santana (.094 & .118), but that would not fit their story.

 

Insignificant

[DaveW]

Pretty much the definition of an insignificant sample size. Career-wise it is .268, .296 and .260 for Gibson (1st, 2nd, & 3rd time)

 

Insignificant

In general bad pitchers (like Gibson) will get mashed the second time through the lineup.

[Thrylos]

 

Just to be clear,SSS are relevant when it comes to players like Gibson but not Dozier?

In general bad pitchers (like Gibson) will get mashed the second time through the lineup.

 

Check their career numbers.  

 

I never gave small sample size numbers for Dozier.  If you are talking about his performance at high leverage situation, the numbers I gave were for the whole 2016 season (N= 146 PA, .192 BA, .672 OPS) and his career (N= 610 PA, BA .225, .671 OPS)

 

Gibson's career numbers are in the post above yours (.268, .296 and .260 for Gibson (1st, 2nd, & 3rd time)). 

 

Huge difference in a. sample size and b. tendencies compared to one's career.

[Darius]

Gibson isn't going anywhere.

 

Whether you like it or not, you can count the number of pitchers more talented than Gibson in the entire organization on one hand. One or two of which are ready for the MLB.... and there is no end to that in sight. Thank TR and his quarter century run of incompetence for that one.

 

If someone needs to go from the rotation, it's Hughes IMO. My 85 year old grandmother has comparable stuff right now. At least with Gibson, there is still the hope that he can put it together and be useful. Every inning Hughes trots out there, he's a thread away from a multi-run inning. To this point, his numbers look better than they should because the outfield defense and cold weather has bailed him out.

 

To Gibson's credit (kind of) the defense hasn't done him any favors. In his last start, it was absolutely atrocious. From Santana dropping a fly ball, to Polanco and Dozier making borderline routine sliding/diving stops look like the most difficult play on earth, that defense was godawful.

 

You expect a sinkerballer like Gibson to succeed while throwing out that infield defense, and Danny freaking Santana in left? What a joke.

 

This whole franchise is a dumpster fire. Gibson is about a dozen guys down the list of Twins that shouldn't be in the MLB.

[yarnivek1972]

Gibson isn't going anywhere.

 

Whether you like it or not, you can count the number of pitchers more talented than Gibson in the entire organization on one hand, and there is no end to that in sight. Thank TR and his quarter decade run of incompetence for that one.

 

If someone needs to go from the rotation, it's Hughes. My 85 year old grandmother has comparable stuff right now. At least with Gibson, there is still the hope that he can put it together and be useful.

Hughes has already lasted longer than Gibson did yesterday. It's Hughes that isn't going anywhere. He's under contract for two more years. I doubt they pay him $13 mil to be the mop up man.