Reusse makes case for Danny Santana at shortstop

[Jham]

 

Is everybody being close-minded or are you being overly optimistic? Is it impossible for him to repeat 2014? No. Is there even a remote possibility that happens? Probably not. 

 

Nobody was jerked around more than Danny Santana? Are you serious!? He was one of the WORST players in baseball the past two seasons yet he was constantly penciled into the starting lineup despite that fact. The ONLY reason he saw the field as much as he did the past two seasons was Molitor's odd attachment to him. I don't believe anybody on this board is happy to watch players or the team fail. He was an obvious candidate for regression, one glance at a comparison between his rookie year and minor league career was enough to see that he was likely to come back to Earth, and he has. 

 

Those stats would certainly be a regression to the mean if you include his minor league track record as well. If Molitor is forcing Santana to be a slap hitter is he also in his ear telling him to never draw a walk and continue to boot balls on the infield and take terrible routes in the outfield? I think it is much more likely that he is the player we saw in the minors and each of the past two seasons than it is that 2014 was the real Dantana. 

Mod's notes aside, I don't take offense to your post.  I called a progression a longshot, you called impossible.  Shrug.  To me, regression didn't explain the total loss of power.  And that's a skill he had flashed from time to time in the minors.  

By some measures he has been the worst player in baseball the past two seasons.  He's also played well in some stretches.  Most players who put up numbers like Santana don't play.  Which is I think why fans are so exasperated.  Most players putting up his numbers don't have his tools or flashed glimpses the way Dan San has shown as recently as last season.  

It is not at all unusual for young players to take their offensive struggles into the field.  It's a lot of pressure to perform.  Granted, handling that pressure is his job.  

The only reason I say he was jerked around is because the position switches and I believe an instruction to change his hitting approach.  Molitor already admitted he screwed up Buxton initially.  It wasn't til Buxton ignored his coach that he won his respect.  That's healthy...  Anyway, I would not be surprised if Santana improves with better instruction or a new organization and has a nice career.  He's still only 26.  
 

[Guest]

Support for Santana is s based on his excellent 2014, but you must realize how incredibly lucky he was that year. Of all batters with more than 400 PAs, he was first in BABIP (#2, FYI, was Drew Stubbs). Yet, his levels of soft, medium and hard contact were among the worst, somewhat equivalent to Erick Aybar's, but Aybar had better K and BB rates and has been a much better defensive player. Santana's ISO in 2014 was better than Aybar's, but it was lofted by his incredible BABIP and well exceeded anything he had done in the minors over sustained periods or did in 2015 or 2016 in the majors. Essentially, 2014 was a mirage that does not show a true ceiling and should not be used predictively. Further, as a defensive shortstop, the simplest characterization would be to say that he's a mediocre outfielder. If more information is needed, look at his minor league error counts.

[drjim]

 

And even those who saw his dropoff coming a mile away, because the signs were blatantly obvious, weren't happy about it because, as Twins fans, that hurts our team (especially when the manager seems so enthralled with him).  We want our team to do well and our players to do well.

 

I think Molitor was enthralled by him for reasons beyond his 2014, as alluded to in the article.

[DJSim22]

According to ESPN, we should consider Ervin Santana as well...

 

Minnesota Twins Depth Chart - 2017
Manager

    Paul Molitor

Disabled List

    None

Left Field

    E. Rosario
    R. Grossman

Center Field

    B. Buxton
    D. Santana
    E. Rosario

Right Field

    M. Kepler
    D. Santana

Shortstop

    J. Polanco
    E. Escobar
    E. Santana

Second Base

    B. Dozier
    J. Polanco

Third Base

    M. Sano
    E. Escobar

First Base

    J. Mauer
    K. Vargas

Catcher

    J. Castro
    J. Murphy

Designated Hitter

    K. Vargas
    M. Sano
    J. Mauer

Starting Pitcher

    E. Santana
    H. Santiago
    K. Gibson
    J. Berrios
    T. Duffey

Relief Pitcher

    G. Perkins
    R. Pressly
    T. May
    M. Tonkin
    T. Rogers

Closer

    B. Kintzler

DEPTH CHART
POSITION  STARTER  2nd  3rd  4th  5th
Catcher Jason Castro John Ryan Murphy     
First Base Joe Mauer Kennys Vargas     
Second Base Brian Dozier Jorge Polanco     
Third Base Miguel Sano Eduardo Escobar     
Shortstop Jorge Polanco Eduardo Escobar Ervin Santana   
Left Field Eddie Rosario Robbie Grossman     
Center Field Byron Buxton Danny Santana Eddie Rosario   
Right Field Max Kepler Danny Santana     
Designated Hitter Kennys Vargas Miguel Sano Joe Mauer   
Starting Pitcher Ervin Santana Hector Santiago Kyle Gibson Jose Berrios Tyler Duffey
Relief Pitcher Glen Perkins Ryan Pressly Trevor May Michael Tonkin Taylor Rogers
Closer Brandon Kintzler

[Thrylos]

 

According to ESPN, we should consider Ervin Santana as well...

 

Minnesota Twins Depth Chart - 2017
Manager

    Paul Molitor

Disabled List

    None

Left Field

    E. Rosario
    R. Grossman

Center Field

    B. Buxton
    D. Santana
    E. Rosario

Right Field

    M. Kepler
    D. Santana

Shortstop

    J. Polanco
    E. Escobar
    E. Santana

 

[...]

 

 

 

 

That is the other Santana, not Danny.   Funny, but I am not sure whether that is a slip by ESPN or not.  Maybe someone wanted to put Ehire Adrianza and they put Ervin Santana instead...

[Jham]

And even those who saw his dropoff coming a mile away, because the signs were blatantly obvious, weren't happy about it because, as Twins fans, that hurts our team (especially when the manager seems so enthralled with him). We want our team to do well and our players to do well.

He was a top 10 organizational prospect. A dropoff may have been blatant. Lots of his skill set was not. Imo, he changed his approach to put the ball on the ground and strike out less. Not a horrible idea for a guy with a high babip. But it totally cut off his aggression and his ability to drive the ball. He k'd more instead of less. Molitor already suggested he told Buxton to put the ball on the ground and let the ball get deeper. I believe a similar discussion occurred with dansan. My support, if you can even call it that, is based on his original scouting, his relative youth, and change in approach which i believe stunned hid growth.

[Mike Sixel]

put the ball on the ground=180 degrees opposite of what the math says to do....

[Otto von Ballpark]

For his minor league career, Santana has a .123 ISO and a .330 BABIP.

 

Putting aside his crazy good 2014 and his crazy bad 2015, I'd say his MLB career .113 ISO and .346 BABIP are about what we should expect.  And that has only produced an 86 wRC+.  Barring superlative defense, that's not particularly valuable, especially now that he's out of options and is very likely to qualify for arbitration next winter.

 

Sometimes young hitters can grow as hitters, of course, but there isn't really any evidence of that for Santana.  His 2014 MLB success was driven by BABIP and mostly 2B/3B power, as was most of his small sample 2015 AAA success too, and he failed to sustain either.

[Mike Sixel]

Right, it's not like his minor league career was great, and he then fell off. He is, imo, what he will be. One of the best baseball players on the planet, but not good enough to be a MLB player on a great team.

[LaBombo]

Alternate article title:  Reusse makes case for ninjas to rappel from skylight and confiscate his BBWA credentials.

 

If Polanco faces an uphill battle to reach the plateau of serviceable major league shortstop, then Santana faces a free climb up a shear face. He fields like the ball is made of yellowjackets, and he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff.

 

Polanco has warts; Santana is warts.  Danny would be a swell 25th man/pinch runner/emergency infielder for a team without a 3rd catcher back in the days of 10 man pitching staffs and phones with moving mechanical parts.

[LaBombo]

 

Is everybody being close-minded or are you being overly optimistic?

 

Yes.

 

Although I'm told that my 'overly optimistic' state resembles that of twilight anesthesia.

 

And I'm always close-minded, because if there's one thing I've found over the years, it's that nobody wants to see what's going on in there.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Alternate article title:  Reusse makes case for ninjas to rappel from skylight and confiscate his BBWA credentials.

 

If Polanco faces an uphill battle to reach the plateau of serviceable major league shortstop, then Santana faces a free climb up a shear face. He fields like the grass at short is swarming with yellowjackets, and he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff.

 

Polanco has warts; Santana is warts.  Danny would be a swell 25th man/pinch runner/emergency infielder for a team without a 3rd catcher back in the days of 10 man pitching staffs and phones with moving mechanical parts.

 

There is some solid gold here!

[USAFChief]

"...he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff."

 

Ell.  Oh.  Ell.

[ashbury]

He fields like the ball is made of yellowjackets, and he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff. Polanco has warts; Santana is warts.  Danny would be a swell 25th man/pinch runner/emergency infielder for a team without a 3rd catcher back in the days of 10 man pitching staffs and phones with moving mechanical parts.

I wouldn't want you or anyone to go overboard with this.^* But my wife sometimes hints around to understand why I spend too much time on TD, and now that I see this, I can't even show it to her in hopes it will make her understand.

 

^{* _{Exception: you are hereby ordered to host one or more Game Threads this season.}}

[drjim]

He's coming...

[Riverbrian]

 

Alternate article title:  Reusse makes case for ninjas to rappel from skylight and confiscate his BBWA credentials.

 

If Polanco faces an uphill battle to reach the plateau of serviceable major league shortstop, then Santana faces a free climb up a shear face. He fields like the ball is made of yellowjackets, and he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff.

 

Polanco has warts; Santana is warts.  Danny would be a swell 25th man/pinch runner/emergency infielder for a team without a 3rd catcher back in the days of 10 man pitching staffs and phones with moving mechanical parts.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with everything you say but this is so well written that I'm going to conform 100%

[Brock Beauchamp]

Alternate article title: Reusse makes case for ninjas to rappel from skylight and confiscate his BBWA credentials.

 

If Polanco faces an uphill battle to reach the plateau of serviceable major league shortstop, then Santana faces a free climb up a shear face. He fields like the ball is made of yellowjackets, and he creates fewer runs than a Lutheran chili cookoff.

 

Polanco has warts; Santana is warts. Danny would be a swell 25th man/pinch runner/emergency infielder for a team without a 3rd catcher back in the days of 10 man pitching staffs and phones with moving mechanical parts.

You know, I don't even agree with much of this post but it deserves recognition for really sticking the landing.

[ashbury]

You know, I don't even agree with much of this post but it deserves recognition for really sticking the landing.

Yeah. "Twins Daily: come for the articles, stay for the Whatever The Hell That Was."

[ThejacKmp]

 

Santana has NO Business being on this 25 man roster, it's insane that he's even an option to be a starting SS for the Twins this year. Over the last few years Santana has literally been one of the very worst hitters in all of baseball, and his defense is not good to boot!

 

 

Disagree that Santana has no business being on the 25 man roster. I have similar feelings about Santana's future as the rest of ya'll but still see a role. Being #25 on the roster is a different thing than being the Twins' 25th best player. Santana provides a decent number of things as the 25th guy - he can pinch run, he can play decent OF defense, he can fill in in the infield, he's a switch hitter. He's not amazing at anything (or even good sometimes) but that versatility is valuable in a day where 12 man pitching staffs are the norm and 13 deep ones are not uncommon.

 

I guess the question you ask yourself is who would provide more use to the Twins as the 4th bench guy? (assuming backup C, Grossman and Escobar are the first three bench people).

 

- Park has a better bat but is largely redundant behind Grossman. Plus no pinch-running skills, can't play OF well.

- Adrianza provides a slick SS and is also a switch-hitter but he's not a base stealer, doesn't provide a reasonable backup OF option and it's debatable how useful that fielding tool is if he can't hit (he would need to be deployed in games the Twins are up in late - that may not happen very often).

- Phooey to carrying a third catcher like Gimenez - he doesn't hit any better than Santana, can't pinch run, his corner OF D is going to be worse and I refuse to devote the 25th spot to some worst-case scenario where the Twins two catchers are both out - just lose that game and bring someone up the next day.

- You could go with an OF option like Stubbs or someone but those guys can't play IF and aren't particularly useful as pinch runners. Do they hit much better than Dan San?

 

About the only argument I could see is that carrying a 13th pitcher would be better than Santana.

 

Assuming that isn't going to happen, Danny Santana seems like a bad player who is a decent 25th man. He isn't a guy you depend on for anything but a guy who fills in all of the deficits the Twins position player pool has: a backup middle IF for when one of Escobar/Polanco/Dozier is day-to-day, a backup OF with defensive range for late innings (aka not Grossman), a pinch runner who is a threat to steal (otherwise it's Escobar who has 7 career steals) and another switch hitter (granted he doesn't hit well but at least it's with a handedness advantage!) Basically, Danny Santana allows you to weather when guys like Buxton or Sano or Polanco are out for a few days with something that doesn't warrant the DL.

 

I'm not arguing Danny Santana is a great player. I am arguing that he has a place on this 25 man roster. We don't want to see him play much but having him at the back of bench should be relatively comforting.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You know, I don't even agree with much of this post but it deserves recognition for really sticking the landing.

Heck, if the pro-Santana side could produce an equally entertaining argument, I would probably endorse it!

[Mr. Brooks]

Disagree that Santana has no business being on the 25 man roster. I have similar feelings about Santana's future as the rest of ya'll but still see a role. Being #25 on the roster is a different thing than being the Twins' 25th best player. Santana provides a decent number of things as the 25th guy - he can pinch run, he can play decent OF defense, he can fill in in the infield, he's a switch hitter. He's not amazing at anything (or even good sometimes) but that versatility is valuable in a day where 12 man pitching staffs are the norm and 13 deep ones are not uncommon.

 

I guess the question you ask yourself is who would provide more use to the Twins as the 4th bench guy? (assuming backup C, Grossman and Escobar are the first three bench people).

 

- Park has a better bat but is largely redundant behind Grossman. Plus no pinch-running skills, can't play OF well.

- Adrianza provides a slick SS and is also a switch-hitter but he's not a base stealer, doesn't provide a reasonable backup OF option and it's debatable how useful that fielding tool is if he can't hit (he would need to be deployed in games the Twins are up in late - that may not happen very often).

- Phooey to carrying a third catcher like Gimenez - he doesn't hit any better than Santana, can't pinch run, his corner OF D is going to be worse and I refuse to devote the 25th spot to some worst-case scenario where the Twins two catchers are both out - just lose that game and bring someone up the next day.

- You could go with an OF option like Stubbs or someone but those guys can't play IF and aren't particularly useful as pinch runners. Do they hit much better than Dan San?

 

About the only argument I could see is that carrying a 13th pitcher would be better than Santana.

 

Assuming that isn't going to happen, Danny Santana seems like a bad player who is a decent 25th man. He isn't a guy you depend on for anything but a guy who fills in all of the deficits the Twins position player pool has: a backup middle IF for when one of Escobar/Polanco/Dozier is day-to-day, a backup OF with defensive range for late innings (aka not Grossman), a pinch runner who is a threat to steal (otherwise it's Escobar who has 7 career steals) and another switch hitter (granted he doesn't hit well but at least it's with a handedness advantage!) Basically, Danny Santana allows you to weather when guys like Buxton or Sano or Polanco are out for a few days with something that doesn't warrant the DL.

 

I'm not arguing Danny Santana is a great player. I am arguing that he has a place on this 25 man roster. We don't want to see him play much but having him at the back of bench should be relatively comforting.

The problem is that Mollie can't help but give DanSan 350 PA's if he's on the roster.

DanSan needs to be cut to save Mollie from himself.

[old nurse]

 

The problem is that Mollie can't help but give DanSan 350 PA's if he's on the roster.
DanSan needs to be cut to save Mollie from himself.

Santana was on the roster for most of last year and had 248 plate appearances. They were mostly CF.  If Santana or anyone else gets that many AB as a CF it would mean that Buxton is either hurt or approaching bust status.. If Kepler, Buxton and Rosario are not playing in over 140 games the problem is not Santana and or Grossman. It is either injuries, lack of development or managerial decision. The latter two scenarios would probably lead to a wholesale change  in the holdovers in the coaching staff.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Santana was on the roster for most of last year and had 248 plate appearances. They were mostly CF. If Santana or anyone else gets that many AB as a CF it would mean that Buxton is either hurt or approaching bust status.. If Kepler, Buxton and Rosario are not playing in over 140 games the problem is not Santana and or Grossman. It is either injuries, lack of development or managerial decision. The latter two scenarios would probably lead to a wholesale change in the holdovers in the coaching staff.

Mollie will find somewhere to get his DanSan in the lineup.

If I recall he had a couple of DL stints last year, or he would have had 300-350.

Even with 250 my point stands. That's far too many.

[LaBombo]

 

I'm not sure if I agree with everything you say but this is so well written that I'm going to conform 100%

 

 

You know, I don't even agree with much of this post but it deserves recognition for really sticking the landing.

 

So I'm hearing that my Danny Santana take was a bit like a nice Christmas card from a family that you don't really have much in common with (Mrs. Bombo had warned me before we took the photos for the card that our matching mullets weren't a good idea, but you know me, once I get an idea in my head...).

 

Am I being too hard on DanTana? Because if that's the case, then I should add that I wrote a few paragraphs exploring the notion that maybe Santana has been a victim of the high expectations he created for himself.

 

But then that exploration took a Heart of Darkness turn for the surreal when I found myself trying to make a point about Santana's offense that involved his disembodied head. Ok, whoa, slow down, it wasn't like an 8 Heads in a Duffel Bag head. It was a live, cheerful, even chatty Danny Santana head, and more importantly, it really helped illustrate my theory in an empirical, mathematical way. Unfortunately, much like mullets, chatty disembodied heads aren't everyone's cup of tea. So I left those paragraphs off.

 

The question still stands, though. Was I being too hard on Santana? Is starting shortstop not a sheer face free climb for Danny, but rather maybe just a French Alpine Difficulty Grade V ascent: "A long, committing route, sustained and often remote; retreat difficult; potential for significant objective hazards"? Is there at least a hint of plate discipline in his future? Can he have utility value on a four man bench, even if it turns out that he'll never play shortstop any better than Leo DiCaprio can play a doctor in Catch Me if You Can?

 

Either way, thanks for the positive feedback. This is the only place where people listen patiently to me and don't ask what happened to my pants.

 

 

 

[ashbury]

 

So I'm ... and don't ask what happened to my pants.

tl;dnr

[jud6312]

 

Santana is a good player and I think he would benefit with knowing where is he is playing everyday.  

On what planet is Danny Santana a "good player?"

 

I mean, I guess if you're comparing him to cadavers, the elderly, toddlers, people that have never heard of baseball, etc. he could be considered "good," but when compared to virtually EVERY player in MLB over the last two seasons he is statistically one of the absolute worst.

[jud6312]

 

Considering the options, I don't think any path can be ruled out.

That said, and though I'm more willing to give Santana a spot on the roster than most, I don't see it. He's the 4th guy on the bench if anything.

The problem is Molitor can't be trusted to not play him unless absolutely necessary. He's been enamored with him forever ... he's his Punto.

[jud6312]

Someone mentioned old DanSan as a pinch running option. That confuses me.

 

I admittedly mix booze and pills from time to time, so perhaps I overestimated his ineptitude on the bases last year. I could've swore that he made Punto-like mistakes and was caught stealing almost as often as he was successful.

 

Can anyone confirm?

 

If I didn't hallucinate it, that means he's a terrible baserunner, below average hitter, barely passable defensive outfielder, and atrocious infielder. That about cover it? 

 

That, to me, doesn't equate to a spot on a 40-man roster, much less a 25-man or with an opportunity to start. Unless, of course, the other options are Drew Stubbs, Ben Paulsen and JB Shuck.

[bird]

Anyone know the character from "Orange is the New Black" named Suzanne "Crazy Eyes" Warren?

 

After reading this thread, I can't seem to get her out of my mind.

[LaBombo]

 

Someone mentioned old DanSan as a pinch running option. That confuses me.

 

I admittedly mix booze and pills from time to time, so perhaps I overestimated his ineptitude on the bases last year. I could've swore that he made Punto-like mistakes and was caught stealing almost as often as he was successful.

 

Can anyone confirm?

 

If I didn't hallucinate it, that means he's a terrible baserunner, below average hitter, barely passable defensive outfielder, and atrocious infielder. That about cover it? 

 

That, to me, doesn't equate to a spot on a 40-man roster, much less a 25-man or with an opportunity to start. Unless, of course, the other options are Drew Stubbs, Ben Paulsen and JB Shuck.

 

Fangraphs isn't known for having especially highball shooter-y takes on baserunning, and they confirm that he was fair to partly awful, parlaying his crazy speed into 9 CS's in just 21 attempts, and a stirling -0.7 baserunning score, good enough to beat fellow Magellanesque bathpath wanderer Jorge Polanco and tie enormous gastropod Kenny Vargas.