The State of Miguel Sano: Looking Good!

[HitInAPinch]

 

Well, at least our strong belief that any schmo can play RF has endured despite a host of evidence to the contrary.

We will always have that.

....and Paris?

 

Casablanca, 1942.  Before my time.  Chief?  

[HitInAPinch]

 

Well, last year before the experiment happened, it was said by more than one in here that RF defense isn't important (or was it 'doesn't matter').

 

So, when looking at it that way, any schmo CAN play RF. :-)

Joe Schmoe, to be exact   

[Riverbrian]

• Miguel Sano is a third baseman, Levine said, but his days of playing the outfield aren’t necessarily over.

“We view Miguel as having a chance to be an above-average third base defensively who’s going to be a force offensively. … We feel most logically, [third base is] where his home is going to be,” Levine said.

“That being said, the more versatile a player is defensively, the more valuable he will be. … So the extent to which Miguel can still play the corner outfield spots only makes him that much more valuable and more of an asset.”  

 

I agree with Mr. Levine 100%. Last year... I never saw moving to Sano to RF as a mistake. Even after he appeared to be a disaster out there.

 

The huge mistake was playing him there everyday and forcing it. Molitor made the statement that Sano was not going to play 3B at all before game one. He stuck him in RF and left him there to drown just like he said he would.  

 

That was the mistake. It took Plouffe getting hurt to move him back to third. You can make a wrong turn... wrong turns only hurt you if you keep going.  

 

My viewpoint... If he isn't going to be an above average defensive player at a position... average or below average play can happen anywhere and moving him around increases his value to the team and his value to other teams because it allows you to put better lineups together. Maybe a better defensive 3B can play when Kyle Gibson is throwing that sinker. Sano can move for a game to DH or RF or 1B or wherever. It's what Joe Maddon would do. 

 

It's good to see Sano looking good. Sano just might be ready for something special this season. 

 

 

 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Ummm...if playing right for a month and a half put him in such a tailspin he is not mentally tough enough to be a great MLB player.

He's just a 22 year old kid...but then so was I when I was an infantryman in the army.

[HitInAPinch]

 

• Miguel Sano is a third baseman, Levine said, but his days of playing the outfield aren’t necessarily over.

“We view Miguel as having a chance to be an above-average third base defensively who’s going to be a force offensively. … We feel most logically, [third base is] where his home is going to be,” Levine said.

“That being said, the more versatile a player is defensively, the more valuable he will be. … So the extent to which Miguel can still play the corner outfield spots only makes him that much more valuable and more of an asset.”  

 

I agree with Mr. Levine 100%. Last year... I never saw moving to Sano to RF as a mistake. Even after he appeared to be a disaster out there.

 

The huge mistake was playing him there everyday and forcing it. Molitor made the statement that Sano was not going to play 3B at all before game one. He stuck him in RF and left him there to drown just like he said he would.  

 

That was the mistake. It took Plouffe getting hurt to move him back to third. You can make a wrong turn... wrong turns only hurt you if you keep going.  

 

My viewpoint... If he isn't going to be an above average defensive player at a position... average or below average play can happen anywhere and moving him around increases his value to the team and his value to other teams because it allows you to put better lineups together. Maybe a better defensive 3B can play when Kyle Gibson is throwing that sinker. Sano can move for a game to DH or RF or 1B or wherever. It's what Joe Maddon would do. 

 

It's good to see Sano looking good. Sano just might be ready for something special this season. 

I never saw the temporary move to RF as a mistake.  For better or worse, Mauer was at 1st, Plouffe at 3rd and Park was scheduled for DH.  So, sit Sano on the bench?  I thought it well worth the effort to try Sano in RF.  I'd rather see that than parking him at DH.  No pun intended   :-)

 

I thought, after a few weeks in RF, Sano did OK.  But just that.  Sure, he still had troubles dealing with balls hit off the wall and on angles.  But that arm sure played well in RF.

 

I completely agree that Sano should not have be left out there for extended periods.  Just like with Berrios and Meyer during those Astro games.  You just don't leave young player out there to get mangled like that. 

 

And, I too think we might see something really good from Sano this year!

[Platoon]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/evaluating-the-prospects-minnesota-twins/

There is no doubt the move failed, but the scouting reports talked about moving him to the outfield. I don't think it was a bad move to give it a try.

It would have helped had he had a little time to prepare, and if he had used the little time he did have to prepare. But to me the real problem was doing all this so you could keep Plouffe. That was the head scratcher.

[HitInAPinch]

 

It would have helped had he had a little time to prepare, and if he had used the little time he did have to prepare. But to me the real problem was doing all this so you could keep Plouffe. That was the head scratcher.

 

Well, if memory serves, the Twins had guys like Logan Schafer, Danny Santana, Darin Mastroianni and a little later Robbie Grossman hanging around to play in the outfield. 

 

Plouffe was a decent third-baseman for the Twins, so I can see the logic of keeping him there.  But bringing in the bunch of OF's I listed, well, seems like a lot worse idea IMHO.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'm an irrational, optimistic homer, but why can't we have nice things?

 

A committed Sano can go 280/390/560 40 bombs, 120 rbis.

 

Would make 80 wins seem a little more realistic.

can he pitch?

[Craig Arko]

The other best news I've heard this offseason.

[Ncgo4]

Sano is a 22 year old just beginning to learn who he is. Like everyone I was disappointed when I first saw him in spring training. He looked to have a better chance of becoming Tracy Claeys than Bob Allison. I was unaware at the time that he was dealing with the personal tragedy of losing a child. On top of that, his manager put him in a position that no one...EVER...had played at his size. We are just lucky he didn't tear a hamstring or worse.

 

Clearly this offseason he put in an effort and certainly looked good in the picture, it shows. If he steroided up, I'm sorry. I meant to say if he really worked out hard and added muscle and still dropped 15 lbs, the difference could be very significant. May be as much at third as at home.

 

Twins management wanted Sano in right to keep Plouffe in the lineup. They wanted Buxton bunting and hitting grounders. We are over both of these dumb, dumb ideas and I fully expect much better things from our two young hot-shots.

 

I for one, am going to sit back and enjoy.

[Squirrel]

 

Sano is a 22 year old just beginning to learn who he is. Like everyone I was disappointed when I first saw him in spring training. He looked to have a better chance of becoming Tracy Claeys than Bob Allison. I was unaware at the time that he was dealing with the personal tragedy of losing a child. On top of that, his manager put him in a position that no one...EVER...had played at his size. We are just lucky he didn't tear a hamstring or worse.

Clearly this offseason he put in an effort and certainly looked good in the picture, it shows. If he steroided up, I'm sorry. I meant to say if he really worked out hard and added muscle and still dropped 15 lbs, the difference could be very significant. May be as much at third as at home.

Twins management wanted Sano in right to keep Plouffe in the lineup. They wanted Buxton bunting and hitting grounders. We are over both of these dumb, dumb ideas and I fully expect much better things from our two young hot-shots.

I for one, am going to sit back and enjoy.

I'm not sure what you meant by putting that (the part I bolded) in there. If that's an off-handed way of making an accusation, I'd say just leave it off.

[KirbyDome89]

 

That would be the logical follow up to last year when he was dead accurate about Sano.

Yes we all know the logical way to succeed at a position you've never been asked to play in your life is to lose an arbitrary amount of weight....

[TheLeviathan]

 

My viewpoint... If he isn't going to be an above average defensive player at a position... average or below average play can happen anywhere and moving him around increases his value to the team

 

How does bouncing him around to positions he can't play make the fact that he can't play them any better?  

 

Bad defense has been a huge component of our run prevention issues, having ill-fit defenders around the field is a major part of that.  I'll keep saying it RB - flexibility is only meaningful if the player isn't terrible at it.

[Riverbrian]

 

How does bouncing him around to positions he can't play make the fact that he can't play them any better?  

 

Bad defense has been a huge component of our run prevention issues, having ill-fit defenders around the field is a major part of that.  I'll keep saying it RB - flexibility is only meaningful if the player isn't terrible at it.

 

I agree with you... however... there is a difference between playing him everyday in RF and watching him make a brutal play every 3rd or 4th game and Paul Molitor being willing and able to go: OK... I've got a ground ball pitcher on the mound facing a team full of RH pull hitters... Escobar is a better fielder at 3B... Vargas is really hot right now and I'd like to keep Sano in the lineup to utilize his bat plus we are facing a left hander who will make it hard on Kepler and Rosario.

 

A situation like that... could actually improve our defense.

 

The big question is: Does Molitor have the ability to think like this and this is where I'm not sure. I know Maddon... Metheny... Roberts and Bannister have this type of ability.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree with you... however... there is a difference between playing him everyday in RF and watching him make a brutal play every 3rd or 4th game and Paul Molitor being willing and able to go: OK... I've got a ground ball pitcher on the mound facing a team full of RH pull hitters... Escobar is a better fielder at 3B... Vargas is really hot right now and I'd like to keep Sano in the lineup to utilize his bat plus we are facing a left hander who will make it hard on Kepler and Rosario.

 

I don't believe you can really hide defenders like that.  You might be able to reduce the odds that their butchery will kill you, but it'll still happen.

 

Why not just save the flexibility for guys that can actually do it?

[Riverbrian]

 

I don't believe you can really hide defenders like that.  You might be able to reduce the odds that their butchery will kill you, but it'll still happen.

 

Why not just save the flexibility for guys that can actually do it?

 

To a certain degree you are right.... plus there is no guarantee that if you put Escobar or Polanco at 3B for defensive purposes that Escobar or Polanco won't airmail one into the stands at a key moment. 

 

If you employ a shift for example there is also no guarantee that the ball won't find that abandoned hole. But... you still shift to increase the odds regardless. 

 

If you have Arenado at 3B... you wouldn't put him in RF for the hell of it. A guy like that would stay at 3B because you can't improve upon it. 

 

A guy like Sano... you can improve upon his defensive play at 3B and if that's the case... Sano flexibility can help your team at times. However... if your manager believes that 3B is the only place Sano can play and won't consider moving him. You can't improve the defense unless you take out his bat or the DH bat to accommodate and weaken your offense in the process.  

 

Managers who think like this are stuck in a box and the Managers like Maddon, Metheny and Banister have a clear advantage. 

 

I think this will be a big year for Molitor to prove that he can change to a more modern way of thinking. Levine watched Banister do it and be successful. Falvey watched Tito show everybody a new way to use an asset like Andrew Miller in the bullpen very successfully. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

....and Paris?

 

Casablanca, 1942. Before my time. Chief?

If that plane leaves the ground and you're not with him, you'll regret it. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.

[TheLeviathan]

I would argue Metheny and Maddon illustrates my point. Both do the same thing, but only one has players capable of it.

 

Check out how that looks on fangraphs to see why the player's abilities matter more than the philosophy. I'm all for what you suggest....when we have the players for it.

[drjim]

Yes we all know the logical way to succeed at a position you've never been asked to play in your life is to lose an arbitrary amount of weight....

I think the Twins last year would have been ecstatic if he had merely gained none over the offseason.

 

If he had put his full effort into making rf work last year and failed, that would have been 100% on the Twins.

[Linus]

I would argue Metheny and Maddon illustrates my point. Both do the same thing, but only one has players capable of it.

 

Check out how that looks on fangraphs to see why the player's abilities matter more than the philosophy. I'm all for what you suggest....when we have the players for it.

This. Just because Zobrist was really good at it doesn't mean it's viable for other teams. Especially when it's forced.

[Riverbrian]

 

I would argue Metheny and Maddon illustrates my point. Both do the same thing, but only one has players capable of it.

Check out how that looks on fangraphs to see why the player's abilities matter more than the philosophy. I'm all for what you suggest....when we have the players for it.

 

Necessity is the mother of invention. Methany didn't have a lot of necessity in 2015.

 

Last year... Diaz arrived with Gyorko... This created a lot of necessity.

 

With Diaz... Peralta is suddenly a 3B when he comes off the DL. 

 

Gyorko is like Sano... you play him for his bat. His defense is sub-par wherever you play him yet there were times when Gyorko was the starting SS. 

 

Wong had to go get a crash course in CF. 

 

Carpenter has always been sub par defensively wherever you play him and he is always the guy who moves when a better defender comes along at the position. 

 

They still won 86 games while Wainwright, Wacha, Garcia and Leake pretty much sucked in the starting rotation. 

 

He made it work pretty well... unless of course you were talking about the Cubs.

 

In that case... nevermind. 

 

BTW... We are still on topic since this pertains to Sano potentially playing some RF this year according to Levine and his conditioning may be factor as such. 

[jorgenswest]

I wonder if the Card's defense as a result of playing guys out of position contributed to the decline in the starting pitchers.

[Riverbrian]

 

This. Just because Zobrist was really good at it doesn't mean it's viable for other teams. Especially when it's forced.

 

I don't think Zobrist is really good at any of the positions he plays. He's just steady at the positions he plays and his ability to be steady at multiple positions is what makes him really good.

 

Why is he so very valuable for a guy who hits around .270 with Power in the Teens?

 

If Zobrist was a great defensive SS... He'd still be a SS. It was only Brandon Harris who was in his way. Ben wasn't a great defensive SS in 2006 or 2007 so Maddon started to move him out of necessity in 2008. 35 Games at SS and 30 games at 2B,OF and elsewhere. By 2009 Zobrist was being plugged in wherever he was needed... excelling at none of the positions. 

 

Guys like Zobrist are movable because they are not defensive wizards at any particular position.

 

I'm under the impression that Sano will not be a defensive wizard at any particular position so moving him around will not hurt us or him and possibly help us or him. 

 

But to be clear... I am not comparing Zobrist to Sano... And I also believe that Sano to RF was forced in a decision that clearly lacked basic foresight by having him play some OF in the minors prior and it lacked basic scouting assessment by thinking he had the instinct to play RF without prior experience because of that lack of foresight.

 

I also believe that Sano demonstrated a clear lack of ability to play the position. 

 

I just believe the dream isn't dead because the Twins approached it wrong. 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

I wonder if the Card's defense as a result of playing guys out of position contributed to the decline in the starting pitchers.

 

Quite Possible... Not to that degree but yes.. quite possible in my opinion. 

[jimmer]

Zobrist has been good at several positions during his career and average at a couple others. He's in his mid 30s now, so his defense is dropping a bit, but he was a very good 2B and RF, and somewhere between slightly below average-slightly above average at other positions. 

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, I think you may have shot your own point in the foot RB. You illustrated all the things you liked about the Cards and then mentioned their pitching struggled.

 

That's exactly my issue. They did what you want with players that can't hack it. Where you would you check the effectiveness of that if not their run prevention?

 

I'd suggest the cause of that is the very thing you are lauding. Fangraphs had them a bottom ten D. I don't think it's coincidence the pitching struggled.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think the Twins last year would have been ecstatic if he had merely gained none over the offseason.

If he had put his full effort into making rf work last year and failed, that would have been 100% on the Twins.

There is no way you can know what level of effort he put in. That is the biggest problem I have with this "issue." At this point the weight has become a means for people to attempt to justify assertions regarding effort and character that are impossible to prove. Following that sort of logic the Twins must have a ton of lazy/low character players.... 

[Riverbrian]

 

Yeah, I think you may have shot your own point in the foot RB. You illustrated all the things you liked about the Cards and then mentioned their pitching struggled.

That's exactly my issue. They did what you want with players that can't hack it. Where you would you check the effectiveness of that if not their run prevention?

I'd suggest the cause of that is the very thing you are lauding. Fangraphs had them a bottom ten D. I don't think it's coincidence the pitching struggled.

 

I walk with a permanent limp because of all the foot shooting I've self inflicted over my lifetime. 

 

However... in this case... I haven't heard or felt the gun go off yet. 

 

This isn't a defense only discussion. What I like about the Cards is the Metheny Creativity in the face of these defensive landmines. Let's assume that the entire Wainwright, Wacha, Garcia and Peake struggles were 100% caused by the Cards defense.... doubtful but let's assume this anyway. Metheny was still able to produce 86 wins and miss the playoffs by just one game because he was able to creatively lineup enough offense and keep the team in contention. 

 

I'm suggesting that Molitor could use a dose of this new way of thinking to deal with his defensive problems because it seems to work for Metheny.

 

In a perfect world... I'd love to have Defensive talent 1 through 9 but we got Sano and you gotta keep his bat in the lineup. The easy answer is DH but now what do you do in NL Cities.

 

I personally wish this didn't have to be introduced at the Major League Level but the Twins didn't have the foresight to do this type of thing down on the farm. Flexibility should be part of the minor league template.

 

Hopefully this will be something that changes under Falvey/Levine. 

 

[ashbury]

If Sano's profile as a third baseman had been that he was poor at coming in on slow rollers but showed flashes of brilliance at tracking pop fouls, then I might have agreed that an experiment in RF, which would still play up a strong arm, was worth trying.

 

His actual record at tracking popups raised a red flag from the outset about being able to track fly balls very well either.

[spinowner]

 

 

Guys like Zobrist are movable because they are not defensive wizards at any particular position.

 

And also because they are not defensive liabilities at any particular position.