Why hasn't Berrios been called back up?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, if they dont want to cut anyone right now, why not do the following:

 

Send Nolasco to the pen.

Recall Berrios

Send May to AAA to stretch out.

Am I missing something?

Bingo.

 

The idea that Nolasco/Milone in the pen before August 1 would meaningfully affect their trade value at this point is preposterous, and frankly insulting to suggest the Twins would be thinking in such simple, demonstrably untrue terms.

[Platoon]

Whether Berrios should have stayed up is a different discussion than whether he should be called up now. 7/26/16. I think he should have stayed up when he got here, but that is history. But there is no sense in not playing out the whole Nolasco/Milone/you name it scenario for another week. If by Aug 2 they haven't made any headway into this situation and just sit in their normal muddled static status, trying to hedge every decision, then it's time to get the pitchforks out. The frustration here, IMHO, is not just Berrios, it's the seeming impossibility to get off the dime. I know there have been some changes made, but it's still shuffling the chairs, no firm direction has ever been taken.

[Major League Ready]

 

I'm sorry I'm not following what you are saying here.
You are saying that once someone makes the big leagues he can never be sent back down, no matter how poorly he plays?

Hasn't Berrios earned his way to the big leagues?

 

You and a couple others are simply refusing to see one extremely simple point. There is absolutely no point in disrupting things when you expect you will have to change it back in a week or two. You don't act period with a major change expected in a week or two in any business.  You wait to make that decision until you have the additional information which is eminent. This is an entirely different conversation if he is not up shortly after the deadline.

 

It’s not like Berrios went down and was dominant from day one.  It’s also not like he did not have command issues to work.  Therefore, it’s not like he has been ready for a 6 weeks and just sitting there in AAA.  It would also be idiotic to send Milone down when he has also earned a promotion, has proven to be competent at the ML level and you are also trying to trade him.  It’s pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP and you would like a good return while at the same time demoting him.  Surely, this is not a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp.  How incompetent would it be to do this a week or two before the deadline?

 

Competent leaders don’t make these kinds of decisions with an expected change on the horizon that will undue the action you have taken, especially when you are impacting your employees lives.  You just don’t screw with people like that and you don’t send a message to everyone else that you don’t care about what you put them through.  Skilled / experienced leaders don’t do this sort of thing.  This is the sort of thing is the product of fanaticism.  This is so management 101 I can’t believe we are having this conversation.

[Jerr]

 

Seems like this same reasoning contributed to him not getting a callup last year -- we couldn't afford to break in another young hurler in the playoff race. This year, we are as far from that race as one can get, but apparently we can't afford to lose starts for the veteran Nolasco before the trade deadline?

And wasn't the reasoning then, that he thrown "too, many innings" in the minors?

[goulik]

While agreeing that I would have liked to see Berrios up by now the anonymity of the Internet should not embolden us to use terms like ineptitude and stupid to describe the jobs real people are doing behind closed doors after decades of hard work to hone their craft. They are obviously not inept nor stupid even though our outside amateur view of their work seems to indicate their work is flawed. It is always easy to judge things from afar when we are not in the midst of the every day, 8-12 hours a day discussions of these things by MANY involved professional baseball men and women who really know what they are doing.

 

As a fan of the game, I do want the management types to know that in this lost season of frustration, I am waiting for a "Berrios is starting" game before I cash in my daughters promise to take me to the game of my choice. Berrios and the hope for the future is what will get me to the stadium to pay for Tickets and not much else.

[Boom Boom]

The problem I see with waiting until the trade deadline is that I don't think it's realistic to expect any meaningful return for Milone or Nolasco.

 

I think most teams have AAAA pitchers that they're just as confident in as Tommy Milone, and Nolasco has another icky year on his contract. Neither is going to excite a GM looking to make a playoff push.

 

For what the Twins might be able to get, it seems to me they might as well DFA those two.

[DaveW]

Yeah there are simply better and cheaper options than Milone and Nolasco.

 

It would be different if they had respectable results or eras this year, but both are....well... Pretty bad this year, add in the contracts and I think teams realize they have a lot of superior options. Even if the Twins picked up 99% of the contracts I doubt they get anything back in return.

[Blackjack]

 

I'm not arguing with any of the information above, other than the guess that he wouldn't be up with other organizations. No way to know if that's fact of not. He would have been sent down after the four starts he had in the big leagues (most likely). Teams aren't trying to put their best prospects in a position to fail. There's no right or wrong answer to any of this. 

 

That bears repeating. Pretty humorous to read the outrage of his not being here.

[beckmt]

This board seems to forget, August starts revokable waivers. A ball club needs a starter due to injury and will not be able to get a very good starter because they will be blocked, that is when the Twins may be able to move a Nolasco or Milone

[DaveW]

This board seems to forget, August starts revokable waivers. A ball club needs a starter due to injury and will not be able to get a very good starter because they will be blocked, that is when the Twins may be able to move a Nolasco or Milone

If a contending team doesn't have someone better in AAA then Ricky Nolasco then that team deserves to miss the playoffs

 

It still creates an issue though, if both Milone and Nolasco are on the roster August 2nd then someone else loses a spot, if that's the case anything other than May going to AAA to stretch out and one of Milone or Nolasco to the pen would be simply unacceptable.

 

Nolasco has been nothing short of a disaster for the last 3 seasons, honestly there is no reason to keep him on the roster at this stage. Eat the money and let him try to sign somewhere else, him taking up valuable innings is hurting this team short and long term.

[alarp33]

 

This board seems to forget, August starts revokable waivers. A ball club needs a starter due to injury and will not be able to get a very good starter because they will be blocked, that is when the Twins may be able to move a Nolasco or Milone

 

No one forgets that.  I think you are forgetting what an awful pitcher Ricky Nolasco is

[tobi0040]

I think we've all done a good job of being patient these last 2 months. Now it's getting ridiculous, and I'm losing patience on a daily basis.

The most frustrating part of this is not that we still have Nolasco, Milone, Santana, Suzuki, etc. on the MLB roster and Berrios, Chargois, and others in AAA.

 

It is that it was entirely predictable that we would completely waste 60 games of developent up to the 8/1 deadline.

[Mr. Brooks]

You and a couple others are simply refusing to see one extremely simple point. There is absolutely no point in disrupting things when you expect you will have to change it back in a week or two. You don't act period with a major change expected in a week or two in any business. You wait to make that decision until you have the additional information which is eminent. This is an entirely different conversation if he is not up shortly after the deadline.

 

It’s not like Berrios went down and was dominant from day one. It’s also not like he did not have command issues to work. Therefore, it’s not like he has been ready for a 6 weeks and just sitting there in AAA. It would also be idiotic to send Milone down when he has also earned a promotion, has proven to be competent at the ML level and you are also trying to trade him. It’s pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP and you would like a good return while at the same time demoting him. Surely, this is not a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp. How incompetent would it be to do this a week or two before the deadline?

 

Competent leaders don’t make these kinds of decisions with an expected change on the horizon that will undue the action you have taken, especially when you are impacting your employees lives. You just don’t screw with people like that and you don’t send a message to everyone else that you don’t care about what you put them through. Skilled / experienced leaders don’t do this sort of thing. This is the sort of thing is the product of fanaticism. This is so management 101 I can’t believe we are having this conversation.

You didn't answer my question whatsoever.

What has Duffey done to stay in the rotation?

Also, Milone and Nolasco are probably more likely to be 8/31 trade candidates, not 8/1 candidates.

When the rotation stays the same on 8/2 then is it ok to make room for Berrios? And if so, why is it suddenly fair to do it to them then, and not now?

[tobi0040]

That bears repeating. Pretty humorous to read the outrage of his not being here.

We have the 15th ranked prospect in baseball, who has thrown a season and a half (300+ innings) between AA and AAA with about a 2.61 ERA, 9.7 k per 9, and a BB/9 of 2.5.

 

There is nothing in his numbers that shows he has anything to show or prove in AAA. And we have at least two pitchers in our rotation who have no trade value and are not part of the 2017 team, who will never be a top 4-5 starter on a good team.

 

And all of this was known on May 1.

 

Regarding other teams, I think we can safely assume that the White Sox would not have Berrios in the minors this long.

 

Carlos Rodon had almost the identical prospect ranking as Berrios at about the same age. He threw a total of 38 innings in the minor leagues. After his first six appearances he walked 19 batters in 22 innings. After his entire first season of 139 IP, he had a BB per 9 of 4.6. There is no way the Twins would have left him on the MLB roster that entire time.

 

Carson Fullmer is the same age as Berrios and came into the season 20 spots behind him in the rankings. He pitched a total of 87 innings between AA and AAA, with a 4.76 ERA and a 5.3 BB per 9.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It’s not like Berrios went down and was dominant from day one.  It’s also not like he did not have command issues to work.  Therefore, it’s not like he has been ready for a 6 weeks and just sitting there in AAA.

So, because it could be worse, then this situation is OK? I hate that line of reasoning.  If Berrios had been fully ready for 6 weeks but was stuck in AAA behind our current group of starters, it would be grounds for immediate firing.  Given that, I'm not sure why they are above any criticism for keeping him down 2-4 weeks past his ready date.

 

 

It would also be idiotic to send Milone down when he has also earned a promotion, has proven to be competent at the ML level and you are also trying to trade him.  It’s pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP and you would like a good return while at the same time demoting him.  Surely, this is not a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp.  How incompetent would it be to do this a week or two before the deadline?

 

Do you really think what the Twins do with Nolasco, or to a lesser extent Milone, in July has any bearing on their July 31st trade market?  By definition, a team trading for either of these two guys will be desperate, and less prone to shifts in usage by the Twins.  Suddenly shifting, say, Gibson or Duffey or Santana to the pen, while also trying to trade them, might suggest an injury or a heretofore unknown performance concern.  That's clearly not the case for Nolasco, who has been a demotion candidate for 2.5 years running, and probably not Milone either who has been repeatedly demoted before.

 

How incompetent would it be to keep starting Nolasco, every 5th game, when he has the worst ERA of any active MLB pitcher since the start of 2014 (min. 150 IP), as some sort of "bluff" before the non-waiver trade deadline?

[alarp33]

 

 It’s pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP and you would like a good return while at the same time demoting him.  Surely, this is not a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp.  How incompetent would it be to do this a week or two before the deadline?

 

 

I'm curious if you think these other teams that are seemingly going to offer a good return suddenly forgot that Tommy Milone was placed on waiver 2.5 months ago.  

 

As for "it's pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP".  Are you under the impression that General Managers just take each others word for who is good and who is not?  Do you think they might have access to film, or even stats that show Tommy Milone is terrible?  

 

Like how do you think these trade talks start?  "You guys should give us a good prospect for Tommy Milone, he's good and a part of our rotation" - RA

"Oh he's in the rotation and good? Sure thing, who do you want?" - Other gm

[Vanimal46]

 

The most frustrating part of this is not that we still have Nolasco, Milone, Santana, Suzuki, etc. on the MLB roster and Berrios, Chargois, and others in AAA.

It is that it was entirely predictable that we would completely waste 60 games of developent up to the 8/1 deadline.

Couldn't agree more. I understood the need for a veteran presence 60 some games ago to stop from doing a complete nose dive on the season. Now we've been twiddling our thumbs and coasting to a forgettable record with a whole bunch of players who won't play a part in 2017 and beyond. 

[Seth Stohs]

 

You didn't answer my question whatsoever.
What has Duffey done to stay in the rotation?
Also, Milone and Nolasco are probably more likely to be 8/31 trade candidates, not 8/1 candidates.
When the rotation stays the same on 8/2 then is it ok to make room for Berrios? And if so, why is it suddenly fair to do it to them then, and not now?

 

I think Duffey, at 25, needs to make his adjustments in the big leagues. He's been back down and made some adjustments. Now he has to go through the ups and downs here. Berrios, at barely 22, was up here, struggled incredibly, got sent down, has made some adjustments and now should be up within a week to ten days. At this point, I'd make the same argument with him. Unless he's just completely lost in a bunch of starts, he now will need to make the adjustments in the big leagues. 

 

I'd be OK with DFAing one or both of Milone and Nolasco on 8/2, but I don't mind them trying once last-ditch effort to get anything for them. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

This board seems to forget, August starts revokable waivers. A ball club needs a starter due to injury and will not be able to get a very good starter because they will be blocked, that is when the Twins may be able to move a Nolasco or Milone

No one is forgetting that, except perhaps the people that keep pointing to August 2nd as the magical target promotion date for Berrios.

 

Actually, those arguing for that seem to be forgetting a number of points:

 

- Nolasco and Milone are far more likely to be dealt in August than July

- August waiver trades yield much lower return than July non waiver trades, and those low returns are not necessarily more valuable than an extra 2-4 weeks of Berrios in MLB

- Duffey can be sent down, and he had an ERA over 7 in June and over 6 in July so far

- either Nolasco or Milone could be moved to the bullpen rather than released

- Nolasco and Milone are both clearly part of a class of pitcher whose market value is not terribly sensitive to their role -- i.e. a bullpen demotion would not be unsurprising for either, and they would still be seen as desperation rotation options by other teams, just the same as if they were starting for the Twins

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I think Duffey, at 25, needs to make his adjustments in the big leagues. He's been back down and made some adjustments. Now he has to go through the ups and downs here. Berrios, at barely 22, was up here, struggled incredibly, got sent down, has made some adjustments and now should be up within a week to ten days. At this point, I'd make the same argument with him. Unless he's just completely lost in a bunch of starts, he now will need to make the adjustments in the big leagues. 

Duffey was sent "back down" for 3 starts.  He's had a 7.17 ERA over the past two months.  Do you really think he made all of his permanent, final adjustments?  On the same level as Berrios?  I think 6 of Berrios' last 7 starts have been better than the best Duffey start from his 3 games "back down" at the beginning of the season.

[drivlikejehu]

While struggling "incredibly," Berrios had the same swinging strike rate as Chris Sale. Higher than Greinke and DeGrom. That's a measure that stabilizes much faster than HR allowed, ERA, etc.

 

He made a few mistake pitches and didn't have his best command. The stuff was MLB-ready. As soon as he was locating pitches in AAA he should have been back up. It's not complicated. Nolasco has zero trade value and the Twins are trotting him out there instead of Berrios because they lack the ability to make good decisions.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The most frustrating part of this is not that we still have Nolasco, Milone, Santana, Suzuki, etc. on the MLB roster and Berrios, Chargois, and others in AAA.

It is that it was entirely predictable that we would completely waste 60 games of developent up to the 8/1 deadline.

To be fair, they've done all right in some areas of the roster, like Kepler, Buxton, Rosario, and Vargas.  And they don't have a lot of options at catcher (although they largely have themselves to blame for that).

 

But the rotation plan and certain bullpen choices the past couple months definitely leave something to be desired.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You and a couple others are simply refusing to see one extremely simple point. There is absolutely no point in disrupting things when you expect you will have to change it back in a week or two. You don't act period with a major change expected in a week or two in any business.  You wait to make that decision until you have the additional information which is eminent. This is an entirely different conversation if he is not up shortly after the deadline.

 

It’s not like Berrios went down and was dominant from day one.  It’s also not like he did not have command issues to work.  Therefore, it’s not like he has been ready for a 6 weeks and just sitting there in AAA.  It would also be idiotic to send Milone down when he has also earned a promotion, has proven to be competent at the ML level and you are also trying to trade him.  It’s pretty hard to tell the other club he is a solid SP and you would like a good return while at the same time demoting him.  Surely, this is not a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp.  How incompetent would it be to do this a week or two before the deadline?

 

Competent leaders don’t make these kinds of decisions with an expected change on the horizon that will undue the action you have taken, especially when you are impacting your employees lives.  You just don’t screw with people like that and you don’t send a message to everyone else that you don’t care about what you put them through.  Skilled / experienced leaders don’t do this sort of thing.  This is the sort of thing is the product of fanaticism.  This is so management 101 I can’t believe we are having this conversation.

 

So, Houston calling up Bregman proves they are incompetent leaders? I'm just trying to understand if calling up any player at this time is conclusive prove that the team doing that is full of incompetence. 

[Mike Sixel]

Did people actually read the quotes from the team? 

[Dantes929]

 

Well, according to this, they don't think he's all that good yet.....

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/baseball/2016/07/22/berrios-continues-show-wings-hes-show-worthy/87458062/

I gave it a like just for the source.   I always go to the Democrat and Chronicle for my Twins news.

[jimmer]

 

Did people actually read the quotes from the team? 

I did, and yet some still want to defend the reasoning.  Whatever.

[alarp33]

 

I think Duffey, at 25, needs to make his adjustments in the big leagues. He's been back down and made some adjustments. Now he has to go through the ups and downs here. Berrios, at barely 22, was up here, struggled incredibly, got sent down, has made some adjustments and now should be up within a week to ten days. At this point, I'd make the same argument with him. Unless he's just completely lost in a bunch of starts, he now will need to make the adjustments in the big leagues. 

 

I'd be OK with DFAing one or both of Milone and Nolasco on 8/2, but I don't mind them trying once last-ditch effort to get anything for them. 

 

Would you agree Berrios is the better prospect than Duffey? 

 

If so, why do you think lower level prospects should be allowed to or are more equipped to spend less time AAA and learn in the Majors than better prospects?

 

By my count, Duffey has thrown 116 innings in AAA, and Berrios is at 173.  

 

Why is that ok?

[alarp33]

Byron Buxton had 240 AA/AAA combined at bats when he was promoted to the Majors.  

 

Jose Berrios has thrown 306 innings in AA/ AAA and is still down there.  

 

Anyone else seeing a major flaw here?  

 

Good thing its Center Fielders that only have a certain amount of throws in their arm before the inevitable elbow surgery.. wait.. 

[HitInAPinch]

 

Did people actually read the quotes from the team? 

Mike, yes I did.  IDK, I'm not really sure what you're view is on what was said by the coaches.  Here's mine:

 

If both Twins pitching coordinator Eric Rasmussen and Wings pitching coach Stu Cliburn say Berrios needs work on getting his curve more north/south, then he's in the right place.  We don't want to see a Duffey-drone [flat curve and inconsistent release point ] correct?

 

Sometimes, player development can be ugly.  Ugly, as in, you sign a few .500-type pitchers for the sole purpose of keeping young pitchers, like Berrios, in the MiLB.  We all saw what happened to Berrios and Meyers @ Houston and it was really unfair.  No sense letting them get destroyed.

 

It's been almost a week since the link you provided was posted.  Has the curveball issue with Berrios has been resolved?  Hope so.  I also hope that when Berrios [and Meyers? ] are recalled, Twins catchers and pitching coaches won't just sit on their butts and let young pitchers get killed.  These should be teaching moments.  

[mikelink45]

As I look at the trades going down I keep wondering why the Twins continue to be one of the last to consider a trade.   Its time to move our pitchers before all the other options have fallen in place and our negotiation strength is reduced.  And then FREE Berrios.  He has done all that can be asked in the minors.