Eddie Rosario Demoted to Rochester

[Mr. Brooks]

It was meant as a pointless exercise to make fun of the fact that, in a year where some hoped the Twins might contend for a playoff spot, we've sunk to the point where the strongest defense that can be mounted of an individual player at position that was supposed to be the team's strength is 'not the worst in baseball'.

Yeah I guess that is pretty funny.

[LaBombo]

 

Yeah I guess that is pretty funny.

 

As an olive branch I've changed the graphic to one that reads 'Mostly True'.    I would have no trouble calling it  'Absolutely True'   except that I don't want VMart,  Panda,  and the other guys to feel slighted.

[Mr. Ed]

Hey Grossman is still only 26. That makes him a YOUNG prospect in the Twins system at the big league level.

[DaveW]

 

Grossman is 26 and once a BP top 100 prospect(76). Seems like the kind of player bad teams should be giving a shot. They may well get a few good years of useful play. Meanwhile, let the young players get extended playing time at AAA.

I have zero problems with the Twins giving Grossman a minor league deal/shot. Do it, it's not hurting anything.

I do have some problems with them calling him up to the majors after less than 48 hours on the AAA roster, a AAA roster that features Byron Buxton and Max Kepler currently. At least make this Grossman guy EARN his major league shot instead of letting him leapfrog Kepler and Buxton because he was born a couple years earlier.

 

Also, he was a top 100 prospect in exactly one publication (major one) for a single season 4 years ago. One day later we promote him to the big leagues, huh?

 

Alex Meyer was a top 50 prospect in multiple publications a total of 6 times (BP, BA, MLB) and was in the top 15 of BP as recently as 2015. Yet that guy can't buy a legit shot at the majors.

 

 

Like seriously, what the hell is going on here?

[DaveW]

 

Since the start of 2015, who is worse?

The 2016 Minnesota Twins not including Duffey, Sano and Park?

[Kwak]

 

Since the start of 2015, who is worse?

How about that Murphy guy the Twins recently demoted?

[Riverbrian]

Rosario Smosario

 

He's just another cough in this horrible disease. 

 

Should he have been sent down?

 

Of course he should... He's far too aggressive at the plate and major league pitching is going to eat him alive.... this is overdue.  

 

However... Let me try and big picture this thing.

 

I have never seen any organization shove the genie back in the bottle this fast... this hard and this clumsily. 

 

 

Big Picture... The Powers that be took a team that was in it until the final weekend... Yeah I know... We over achieved... We punched above our weight... Yeah I Know... but the team was in it until the final weekend anyway. 

 

The Powers that be... (a room full of people) tasked with improving this club that was "Oh So Close" failed so badly with their assessments in almost every facet of consideration that two months into 2016 we have knee jerked Kintzler, Centeno, Dean, Rogers, Mastroianni and Grossman on to our 25 Man in order to right the ship. 

 

(Close circuit to Centeno and Kintzler... I kinda like what you guys are doing so far... keep it up).

 

Anyway... Centeno and Kintzler have been OK so far but... but... Big Picture... We have a front office who made that possible. It should have never happened. You stand here today and need Centeno and Kintzler. 

 

Back to Rosario... Yes he should have been sent down... A couple of weeks ago but you didn't do it because you didn't have anybody else to replace him. Sending him down now... immediately after he was yanked from the game... for doing what he has always done (Play Aggressively) and then bringing up a guy that you've had for a day or two.  Well that LOOKS LIKE CRAP and it looks like you are placating a fed up manager and it does lead me to ask this important question.

 

Who exactly is running this organization Terry?  

 

I hope Grossman turns out to be the J.D. Martinez... I personally love those stories and I won't stand here and tell you that he won't be...  I hope Centeno spring boards into a lengthy career and I will go ahead and assume that he will until he proves otherwise...  But Terry Ryan... I'll say that you've already told me and everybody else how you assessed those two coming out of spring training. Centeno was 4th on your depth chart... a backup in Rochester and Grossman wasn't even on the team. He was signing a minor league deal with a team that signed professional outfielders so he had nowhere to go.

 

You and the room full of people who advise you... the room full of people who do this for a living selected this roster and here we are... a mere 8 months ago... we were playing meaningful games in September. 

 

OK... I feel better... It's getting late in North Dakota. 

 

 

[DaveW]

 

Hicks and his sub 600 OPS wouldn't be inspiring me about our roster decisions. We needed actual talent.

Few things:

As I mentioned, Hicks had a terribly slow start, however he has certainly come around lately, .846 OPS in the last month. Most encouraging overall is that Hicks is showing some very apparent improvement against RHP.

 

Additionally Hicks was at the very worst a "good" defensive CF and an "Elite" corner OF. At the very least he and Rosario (or he and Arcia) would have made a really nice platoon. Or if they don't do the idiotic move of putting Sano in RF, the Twins could have been looking at a real elite defensive OF.

 

All of which is to say, he certainly has been a lot more productive than the guy we traded him for...

[jud6312]

I just read that the Mariners released Ed Lucas today.

 

If his agent didn't call Terry and his stable of yes-men bobos by the time the Mariners' call ended he should be firing that agent.

 

He could be signed, play a game at Rochester, be starting at SS by Tuesday and have a multi-year extension by the end of the month if he plays his cards right.

[Kwak]

Anyone remember the halcyon days when the Twins could boast the #1 minor league system?  I am of the opinion that was just .......   .

[Bark's Lounge]

 

I have never seen any organization shove the genie back in the bottle this fast... this hard and this clumsily.

If this sentence is not a "Bullseye", then darts and bows and arrows never existed and are a figment of our imagination.

[twinssporto]

I have been a Twins fan my entire life.  I've seen great teams, good teams and bad teams.  This 2016 team is by far the worst I've ever witnessed.  I think you have a number of issues going on that are contributing to this:

 

1.  Front office seems to be in disarray.  Obviously they don't know when to promote or demote the younger players.  Much like a batter, the front office seems to have timing issues.

 

2.  I'm not in the dugout everyday nor on the practice field with the players but in seems to me that there are some coaching and managing problems.  I miss the way the Twins were always known for the fundamentals (T.K. style).

 

3.  THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO LEADERS IN THE CLUBHOUSE.  Name one that stands out.  Over the years the great and good teams always had at least one or more leaders in the clubhouse.  Maybe Tori Hunter played a bigger role last year behind the scenes...Not really sure but some of these guys need to man up.

[Shane Wahl]

Ok, Rosario is basically playing every day. How on earth is he not replaced with Buxton or Kepler. For the love of ****ing god.

[Shane Wahl]

 

A big league GM should know better than to depend on a guy like Rosario to productively hold down a full time big league job. You can't win a gamble like that very often.

Zero strike zone control, modest power. Not a lot of high minor's success.

I keep coming back to how I think you treat minor leaguers, including phenoms (which Rosario wasn't): you never, ever make room for them and count on them. You make them force their way onto the big league team through production, and earn progressively more playing time once they get there.

 

I would like to point out that I am on the record in responding to a Bonnes article, I think, last year about Rosario coming up and stating that I hoped that he wouldn't do well right away because he wouldn't be ready. He hadn't done much in AA up until that point.

[theJemmer]

Due to the unbelievable outcomes thus far I'm reduced to two things simultaneously playing out.

 

1.I'm pretty much numb to the actual results on the field.Nothing surprises me, and worse, nothing really excites me.This is the saddest part for me.I want to care whether they win or lose, or cheer the good moments - it just isn't there - and we're not to June yet.More than anything at this point I want to SEE our prospects - I don't really care if they struggle (mightily) as long as they don't play idiotically (get thrown out trying for an unnecessary triple).So I'm happy to see Rosario sent down but would rather have Berrios (melt down and all), Buxton and Kepler up and playing consistently.Mastro?Grossman?No, just, no.

 

2.I'm completely fascinated by the live-action reality show that is playing out before our eyes.Hence me awake and reading 6 pages of comments!!  There's a new dumpster fire each day.Yesterday Hughes, today Rosario, David Murphy retiring, on and on.Terry can't be sleeping more than a couple hours a night.I'm sure he was expecting mediocre or better results - allowing his prospects to slowly improve, maybe with the big club, maybe in Rochester.But it feels like the Twins are the baseball version of the Trump campaign - no one knows what crazy, amazing, infuriating, ridiculous thing will happen the next day.And when you think you've seen it all, the sun rises again in the east and woooo!! here we go....

 

If all this ends up with the Twins back in the playoffs with a team that can REALLY compete (not Twins v Yankees in the Gardy days) it will be an amazing, excruciating, wonderful thing.God that would be FUN.

[Shane Wahl]

How many TD members are there? How much money can we pool together? How close is this to $700 million or whatever to buy this team?

[Bark's Lounge]

If this is our baseball reality, I wish FSN would broadcast Rochester Red Wing games instead of the Twins.

[jimbo92107]

Amen to Rosario to the minors.  That steal of 3B was stupid!  Add the throw home in the first, the failed catch of the pop-up between him and Nunez and it is clear Rosario is ​not playing at the MLB level.   ​

The ability to see your opponent's vulnerabilities and exploit them is what separates exciting, creative players from average, rather boring ones. Rosario's stolen base was a successful example of seeing an opportunity and taking it. I would not want to discourage that attitude. Rosario is capable of playing the game at a higher level than most. He sees the geometry of a third baseman a little too far from his base. He understands the difficulty of coordinating the throw and catch between a pitcher and a running third baseman. That wasn't stupid, it was inspired. It was also a play Trevor Plouffe had done in an earlier game. If it works, how stupid can it be?

 

Rosario's problem with strike zone discipline is serious. He needs to refine his approach quite a bit, and quit trying to be Vlad Guerrero. His frustrations at the plate have started affecting his fielding, too. He needs to go down to AAA to reset and work on a more professional approach to hitting. The rest of his game is pretty good already. 

[kab21]

 

I have zero problems with the Twins giving Grossman a minor league deal/shot. Do it, it's not hurting anything.

I do have some problems with them calling him up to the majors after less than 48 hours on the AAA roster, a AAA roster that features Byron Buxton and Max Kepler currently. At least make this Grossman guy EARN his major league shot instead of letting him leapfrog Kepler and Buxton because he was born a couple years earlier.

 

Also, he was a top 100 prospect in exactly one publication (major one) for a single season 4 years ago. One day later we promote him to the big leagues, huh?

 

Alex Meyer was a top 50 prospect in multiple publications a total of 6 times (BP, BA, MLB) and was in the top 15 of BP as recently as 2015. Yet that guy can't buy a legit shot at the majors.

 

 

Like seriously, what the hell is going on here?

This isn't about him leapfrogging buxton and Kepler. They have decided that those two are legitimate top prospects and they need more time in the minors. Grossman is being promoted because he is a warm body.

[GMinTraining]

So easy to blame the prospects.  Dig deeper and question how many prospects actually improve after going back down to AAA?  They all improve at AAA, but share the same problem once they get back to MLB (consistency).  Name the last position prospect to actually benefit from grooming within the Twins minor league system?

Parmele

Colabello

Benson

Pinto

Hicks

Dozier

Ploufe

Vargas

Santana

Arcia

Sano

Buxton

Kepler

Rosario

 

What has being a top prospect in the Twins system gotten us?  Not all those above guys suck.  But all those guys have been inconsistent.  What we need is a better transition plan for these prospects from AAA to the MLB.  Let's not even start on the pitchers...................

[old nurse]

 

Actually, by WAR since start of 2015 I believe he is. But please, expound further

Pablo Sandoval by WAR has been worse over the designated time period

[Kwak]

 

The ability to see your opponent's vulnerabilities and exploit them is what separates exciting, creative players from average, rather boring ones. Rosario's stolen base was a successful example of seeing an opportunity and taking it. I would not want to discourage that attitude. Rosario is capable of playing the game at a higher level than most. He sees the geometry of a third baseman a little too far from his base. He understands the difficulty of coordinating the throw and catch between a pitcher and a running third baseman. That wasn't stupid, it was inspired. It was also a play Trevor Plouffe had done in an earlier game. If it works, how stupid can it be?

 

Rosario's problem with strike zone discipline is serious. He needs to refine his approach quite a bit, and quit trying to be Vlad Guerrero. His frustrations at the plate have started affecting his fielding, too. He needs to go down to AAA to reset and work on a more professional approach to hitting. The rest of his game is pretty good already. 

Risk vs. reward.  Two outs, two on, down 3 runs, top of the 8th was the situation.  If he makes the third out (like say tripping and falling) the inning ends and for all intensive purposes so does the game--and for what?  He can't score on an out, but would score on a hit anyway--and his run isn't decisive!  His play is high school--not major league--and that's why he was benched.  He was demoted because his overall performance through the season, the stolen base was just one more indication of a "me first" attitude.

[blmgtnman]

Makes no sense keeping someone on a team that's floundering in their mistakes and stupidity. If they're not ready for prime time, which I've always thought was the theory of a farm system, then why keep them up here?  Bring 'em up and check 'em out.  Give 'em a taste of what it's like out there among those with a better skill set and experience. If they have it together, they'll stick.  If not, bye bye until the next opportunity comes along, if there is one. Pampering these guy won't teach them squat.  It'll just result in the ever continuing lose of attendance at the park.

 

If it turns out there's very little talent within the Twins farm system, then you know where to turn next.

 

Good bye TR!

[Platoon]

Risk vs. reward.  Two outs, two on, down 3 runs, top of the 8th was the situation.  If he makes the third out (like say tripping and falling) the inning ends and for all intensive purposes so does the game--and for what?  He can't score on an out, but would score on a hit anyway--and his run isn't decisive!  His play is high school--not major league--and that's why he was benched.  He was demoted because his overall performance through the season, the stolen base was just one more indication of a "me first" attitude.

So when you are two down, two out, and on first, and they don't hold you on, you should not take second base? Because your run would not make a difference? If he had stolen third in a standard defensive format, I would have been with you on this, out or not out. But this wasn't that situation. And if Molitor was upset with the huge leads, forcing Verlander to bluff him back, I would like Molly to tell me what Rosario should do? The problem I see, is that some players are disciplined for mistakes, perceived or otherwise. And some are not. All managers have favorites, the good ones don't get caught at it!

[TheLeviathan]

 

Few things:

As I mentioned, Hicks had a terribly slow start, however he has certainly come around lately, .846 OPS in the last month. Most encouraging overall is that Hicks is showing some very apparent improvement against RHP.

 

He's had a terribly slow start at the start of the year.  I don't know what specific, narrow time frame you picked out to pull that OPS number, but you're doing gymnastics to polish a turd Dave.

 

Mastro can manage good defense and a .580 OPS.  We should've gone into the season with at least one player in the OF that we could count on as a defensive and offensive contributor.  Hicks would not count towards that either.

[alarp33]

 

Pablo Sandoval by WAR has been worse over the designated time period

 

Not on bWAR (and not really even close).  

 

-1.1 for Sanoval since start of 2015

 

-3 for Danny Santana

[DaveW]

He's had a terribly slow start at the start of the year. I don't know what specific, narrow time frame you picked out to pull that OPS number, but you're doing gymnastics to polish a turd Dave.

 

Mastro can manage good defense and a .580 OPS. We should've gone into the season with at least one player in the OF that we could count on as a defensive and offensive contributor. Hicks would not count towards that either.

Hicks had a .886 OPs last year agains LHP and a 97 OPS+ overall. Which isn't bad for at all for a CF. Especially a CF that is very good defensively. In fact that was pretty much average 97 ops+ at the dish.

 

Stop acting like hicks was drew Butera, he wasn't.

[big dog]

I was listening to the Tigers radio guys on XM.  When Rosario threw home early in the game, they said that was a really terrible play- absolutely no chance to get the guy, put the hitter on second when there was no reason to do that- they said that stuff like that must just drive Molitor crazy.  I don't think he was sent down for taking the extra base.  I do think pulling him from the game at that time was unnecessary.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That was the justification for the demotion, yes.

 

If he deserved to be demoted, he should have been demoted before that, correct?

Eh, if it's the straw that broke the camel's back, it's hard to get too upset about it.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Between the very poor performance and the mental mistakes, he really doesn't deserve to stay in the majors.

 

Then again, this is a lost season so do we let the supposed future play and gain experience while taking lumps or do we replace the future with also bad players like Grossman?  It's sad our vaunted farm system can't seem to produce players who can hack it yet and we resort to players like Grossman.

 

They did this with Rosario.  It clearly wasn't working.  They did this with Buxton, and it didn't work.  I suspect the kids will get another shot, but I do think there's merit in recognizing when said kid isn't earning that job and demoting them accordingly.  The season is lost, and the guys you want to step up aren't doing that.  I don't have a problem with filler like Grossman for the time being.  You'll see them again at some point, hopefully that's at a point where they've earned it.