The youth movement must start now because it has already started

[Platoon]

You're right.Alex Swim retired on Monday.

They told him he was to report to Mpls. He said why should I take a demotion? I quit!

[Mr. Brooks]

Actually, all it will take is for Sano and Buxton to play up to their potential.

This isn't the NBA. One or two players don't get you from dead last in the league to contenders.

[d-mac]

We need to be patient and let Buxton, Kepler, and co get their AAA time in this year. But by Opening day next year I'd like to see:

 

1. Polanco- 2B

2. Mauer- 1B/DH

3. Arcia- RF(vs L Park) 

4. Sano- 3B

5. Park- DH/1B (Arcia vs L)

6. Kepler- LF

7. Cervelli- or- Ramos- or -Saltalmacchia -C (I'd go after a FA catcher next year)

8. Escobar- SS

9. Buxton- CF

 

Bench- 

C- (one of Murphy/Centeno/Turner/Garver)

IF- Beresford

OF- Rosario

Misc BE- ??

 

Rotation-

 

Santana

Duffey

Berrios

May

Meyer/Gibson

 

Pen-

Pressly

Tonkin

Abad

Hughes

Rogers (LOOGY)

Chargois (CL)

Burdi (SU)

[FunnyPenguin]

 

Even if you insist on continuing to play Dozier every day why can't you move him and his .222/.305/.376 (.681) line down the order?

Easy, Easy, Easy now... just up and insult a guy that has been an All-Star and solid for past couple seasons cuz of a fairly rough first 30 games?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I've got nothing better to do, demonstrate it to me.

 

Neither of them pitch, that should be obvious enough.  But let's start with this - you tell me how productive they both would have to be for your magic turnaround and I'd be happy to oblige.  

 

So let's see the slashline/production you think makes that happen.

[jimbo92107]

Born Signed

Ryan Eades RHP R / R 6' 2" 200 12/15/1991 6/28/2013

Stuart Turner C R / R 6' 2" 220 12/27/1991 6/19/2013

Aaron Slegers RHP R / R 6' 10" 245 9/4/1992 6/28/2013

Brian Gilbert RHP R / R 6' 1" 224 8/9/1992 6/19/2013

Mitch Garver C R / R 6' 1" 220 1/15/1991 6/19/2013

C.K. Irby RHP R / R 6' 1" 200 5/6/1992 6/19/2013

Brandon PetersonRHP R / R 6' 1" 190 9/23/1991 6/19/2013

Zach Granite CF L / L 6' 1" 175 9/17/1992 6/19/2013

Ryan Walker SS L / R 6' 1" 157 3/26/1992 6/19/2013

Jared Wilson RHP R / R 6' 4" 210 4/26/1990 6/19/2013

Alex Swim C L / R 6' 0" 185 3/26/1991 6/19/2013

Chad ChristensenOF R / R 6' 3" 205 10/6/1990 6/19/2013

Didn't I just read a couple days ago that Alex Swim retired from baseball? 

[jimmer]

 

When is the magic date that teams can stop pretending they can still make the playoffs?

Do they have to wait until they are mathematically eliminated?
Because even the worst team in baseball is usually still mathematically in it into September.

So many unwritten rules in baseball. It's hard to keep track of them.

If you figure a playoff team this year would need at least 88 wins, Twins would have to go 80-49 the rest of the way.  If we go down to 86 wins needed it's 78-51.

 

With the 'talent' on this team, it'd be a blood miracle for either of those to happen.  Team should look at that and act accordingly.  Or they could have been smart, and realized this wasn't a playoff team before the season even started and acted accordingly, but that ship has sailed.

[howieramone2]

 

I beg to differ. But I will play along. So let's say Sano and Buxton do that? What of the SP, the BP, the catching, the mediocre defense? Sano and Buxton? Miggy and Trout could not have this team playing .500 ball.

Yes they would.

[Riverbrian]

 

Me too. I still like him, but those that pointed out his lack of plate discipline were right. I am hoping he turns it around because he's a special athlete.

 

I love the way Rosario plays the game aggressively. He's one of my favorites to watch. 

 

But that aggressiveness is an issue at the plate however. 

[d-mac]

Yes they would.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[howieramone2]

 

 

This isn't the NBA. One or two players don't get you from dead last in the league to contenders.

Two All-Stars would make this team a contender. Certainly it would forestall the need for any type of massive rebuild activity which is what I originally responded to.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

I love the way Rosario plays the game aggressively. He's one of my favorites to watch. 

 

But that aggressiveness is an issue at the plate however. 

Ditto. I just wish they would play him everyday in CF instead of Santana and see if he can find his groove again - if he can't do that, then he might need to take a trip to North Central NY.

 

I really have high hopes for Rosario, and those hopes haven't faded, the young guys for the most part, have really struggled this season.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Two All-Stars would make this team a contender. Certainly it would forestall the need for any type of massive rebuild activity which is what I originally responded to.

Come on Howie. Enough people have poked enough holes in your posts to prove you incorrect. It is okay to be wrong once in a while. It's no big deal. This isn't something I would dig my heals into and try to stand your ground. It really is not worth it.

[diehardtwinsfan]

MODERATOR NOTE... 

 

Let's tone down the bickering, and let's do so by supplying some substance to claims. 

[JaleelWhite FanClub]

It's hard to claim that by selling off their veterans to clear room for the younger players that the Twins would be tanking. Collectively, they stink! Look at their record!

[Bark's Lounge]

Okay. I don't know if 2 All-Stars can solve anything. In 2013 the Twins had Mauer and Perkins as All-stars and the Twins sucked, that is besides the point as the team was different 3 years ago.

 

I am assuming what Howie meant to say was, 2 super star players. Maybe if the Twins had Kershaw and Arrieta, our record would be a little bit better, It is hard to determine how much better they would be? They certainly would be far shy of a winning record.

 

This squad has had the bottom fall out, and Kershaw's and Arrieta's do not grow on trees. There certainly is hope for this team, but the ship has sailed this year and this org needs to recoup and play the guys they think will be part of the solution and not try to ignore what is happening.

 

It's all about doing the right thing for shaping these youngin's up for next year and beyond.

[DaveW]

Neither of them pitch, that should be obvious enough. But let's start with this - you tell me how productive they both would have to be for your magic turnaround and I'd be happy to oblige.

 

So let's see the slashline/production you think makes that happen.

1.000/1.000/4.000

Should get them to 4th place at least

[twinsnorth49]

Yes they would.

How? Show your work.

 

I could save you the trouble and say the math doesn't really work, at least not in reality.

[Guest]

Born SignedRyan Eades RHP R / R 6' 2" 200 12/15/1991 6/28/2013Stuart Turner C R / R 6' 2" 220 12/27/1991 6/19/2013Aaron Slegers RHP R / R 6' 10" 245 9/4/1992 6/28/2013Brian Gilbert RHP R / R 6' 1" 224 8/9/1992 6/19/2013Mitch Garver C R / R 6' 1" 220 1/15/1991 6/19/2013C.K. Irby RHP R / R 6' 1" 200 5/6/1992 6/19/2013Brandon PetersonRHP R / R 6' 1" 190 9/23/1991 6/19/2013Zach Granite CF L / L 6' 1" 175 9/17/1992 6/19/2013Ryan Walker SS L / R 6' 1" 157 3/26/1992 6/19/2013Jared Wilson RHP R / R 6' 4" 210 4/26/1990 6/19/2013Alex Swim C L / R 6' 0" 185 3/26/1991 6/19/2013Chad ChristensenOF R / R 6' 3" 205 10/6/1990 6/19/2013

Thanks for putting the list together. With the possible exception of Turner and Garver (can we call him Hooch, just for kicks?), none of these players are going to be claimed in Rule V, so space on the 40-man should be available. The problem is that not many players are in line to go off.

 

Possibilities:

 

Suzuki (I bet he's coming back, but you'd think his performance could be replaced cheaply)

Walker (not going to the majors with a 46% K rate in AAA)

Mastro

Jepsen

Melotakis

Plouffe

Kintzler

Vargas (will have value to someone else, should trade him for something now)

Dean (hope his family gets to see him during his cup of coffee)

Abad (may price himself out; should sell high now)

Nolasco/Hughes/Santana (is it too much to expect of the GM for him to right size by removing one of these?)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I want to be clear that I would never advocate throwing in the towel in Mid May no matter the record and the teams current record and play is not the reason for this post.

 

I also firmly believe that committing to youth at a large scale is committing to a rough year. I believe this because nearly every team that does it has rough years.

 

I also believe that after last year... the team should have tried to enhance the squad and improve their chances with talented vets but the front office didn't do this... it chose to get even younger so now it must continue walking in that direction and finish that job.

 

The 40 Man Roster is filled with talented high upside youth and I assume that more talented high upside youth will need to be added to the 40 man next year to protect them from rule 5 vultures... (hopefully Seth or someone who watches this stuff closer could shed light on who will need to be protected).

 

Adding more youth to this already young 40 man roster is going to make the situation even more difficult to manage and the pressure behind that wall is already non functional. We already need to call up Kepler and Polanco to sit on the MLB bench because we lack suitable bench options when injuries occur. The youth we have been waiting for is here and at some point you have to tear down that wall and let them rush through or you have to trade them and that just doesn't seem like the Twins way.

 

Might as well start the youth movement now because it has already started.

i would add Kepler, Polanco, and Chargois need to come up and play in low leverage situations because the team will need them to contribute more meaningfully next year. As you point out, big trades aren't this GM's MO

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I don't know that he has issues but he's only just now faced AAA pitchers. His biggest problem is that he's not being blocked by movable vets, we still need to figure out a way to get Sano, Arcia, Rosario and Buxton at bats.

trade Plouffe, put Santana on the bench, rotate Arcia and Rosario

[Kwak]

Let's see:  after disposing of everybody  who can make any claim of being a major league player  how do you justify charging admission for games?  If every fan (except for TD armchair GMs) revolt, how do you explain to all of the state that they should continue to pay for a stadium that is supposed to be used for MLB games (except they really aren't!)?  I have read oh so many posts about players being "rushed", and now every prospect is to prove himself at the major league level?  Hmm, panic attack to me. 

[ScrapTheNickname]

Anyone dreaming of recalling Buxton this year and getting MLB results is deluding himself. He just doesn't have it at, that's why he's in AAA.

 

Kepler, on the other hand, has not been allowed enough time with the Twins to find out if he is overmatched ... and the same goes for Polanco. Thus, I would like to see Kepler and Polanco now.

 

Trade Nunez while he's playing relatively well ...

[DocBauer]

Ditto. I just wish they would play him everyday in CF instead of Santana and see if he can find his groove again - if he can't do that, then he might need to take a trip to North Central NY.

 

I really have high hopes for Rosario, and those hopes haven't faded, the young guys for the most part, have really struggled this season.

Yes they have. And really, shouldn't we expect at least a few struggles from such young players?

 

I'm really disappointed in Rosario though, agree with you on that point. He has SOOO much talent. Considering his milb history as a productive hitter, and a not too bad OB% either, and what he did last season, i really believe he'd take last year's experience and build on it. It obviously hasn't happened to this point. I keep wondering f he's pressing, trying too hard for the bomb or big hit?

 

At this point, our OF options are a bit limited, unless we're going to March Polanco or Nunez out to the OF. I think he could also benefit from some time at Rochester, but I don't know how wed do that at this point. Play Mastroianni every day? (Shudder) I like the idea of him getting some CF time to see if it could snap him out of things. At this point, with limited options, we might just be better off playing him daily.

[DocBauer]

I want to be clear that I would never advocate throwing in the towel in Mid May no matter the record and the teams current record and play is not the reason for this post. 

 

I also firmly believe that committing to youth at a large scale is committing to a rough year. I believe this because nearly every team that does it has rough years.

 

I also believe that after last year... the team should have tried to enhance the squad and improve their chances with talented vets but the front office didn't do this... it chose to get even younger so now it must continue walking in that direction and finish that job.

 

The 40 Man Roster is filled with talented high upside youth and I assume that more talented high upside youth will need to be added to the 40 man next year to protect them from rule 5 vultures... (hopefully Seth or someone who watches this stuff closer could shed light on who will need to be protected).

 

Adding more youth to this already young 40 man roster is going to make the situation even more difficult to manage and the pressure behind that wall is already non functional. We already need to call up Kepler and Polanco to sit on the MLB bench because we lack suitable bench options when injuries occur. The youth we have been waiting for is here and at some point you have to tear down that wall and let them rush through or you have to trade them and that just doesn't seem like the Twins way. 

 

Might as well start the youth movement now because it has already started.

 

What is so damn frustrating is that it just seemed so blatantly obvious what had to be done! There were numerous options available to add some of the veterans that you speak of, to the bullpen and the OF. There were many OF and bullpen options to be added that would not have broken the Twins financial backs! As I stated in a previous thread, Cleveland is playing a pair of veteran OF's in Byrd and Davis that would have been perfect options to mix and match with Arcia, Rosario and Santana to allow Buxton and Kepler the time they needed.

 

I get keeping Plouffe. I really do. Park had excitement and potential, but also a lot of questions as to how quickly he would assimilate. And while we all hoped therapy, hard work and more time removed from concussions would see some sort of return to the old Mauer, how could anyone know that it might actually happen? Imagine if the supposed limited market for Plouffe netted no immediate help but he was traded and Mauer continued to struggle, or decline, and Park simply wasn't ready. We'd be hearing protest after protest for selling short and not having options.

 

But now, it IS time to think about moving Plouffe. Along with others, even with sunk costs. But those sunk costs will eventually come off the books over the next couple of years, we MIGHT actually get a solid return or two, and the replacement players will be playing for minimum contracts.

 

You mention struggles by committing further to the youth movement that is already taking place. This team is already struggling. More power to the continued rebuild!

[DocBauer]

We need to be patient and let Buxton, Kepler, and co get their AAA time in this year. But by Opening day next year I'd like to see:

 

1. Polanco- 2B

2. Mauer- 1B/DH

3. Arcia- RF(vs L Park) 

4. Sano- 3B

5. Park- DH/1B (Arcia vs L)

6. Kepler- LF

7. Cervelli- or- Ramos- or -Saltalmacchia -C (I'd go after a FA catcher next year)

8. Escobar- SS

9. Buxton- CF

 

Bench- 

C- (one of Murphy/Centeno/Turner/Garver)

IF- Beresford

OF- Rosario

Misc BE- ??

 

Rotation-

 

Santana

Duffey

Berrios

May

Meyer/Gibson

 

Pen-

Pressly

Tonkin

Abad

Hughes

Rogers (LOOGY)

Chargois (CL)

Burdi (SU)

I see where you are going here, and I appreciate your enthusiasm and ideas. But I'm going to disagree somewhat with your construction, as listed.

 

First, given some real time at Rochester, which he is getting, there should be real hope and expectation that said AAA time, and additional ML time later on, that Buxton should be hitting at the top of the order somewhere.

 

Second, I don't want to trade Dozier. I'm not sure how many people really WANT to see Dozier traded. But as I also stated recently in another thread, it may simply be prudent to do so. Polanco has a ton of talent and potential. But you will never see a return on that talent if you keep Jenkins him around, up and down, on the bench, and constantly moving him around. He is such a good hitter and overall producer that the past three seasons, every team he's been on places him in the 1 or 2 hold, and eventually moves him to the 3 spot because he's so solid and productive. He needs a spot, and I won't argue that point in the slightest.

 

Third, I know this has been an ongoing debate for some time, but the roster as you select it...and I dont disagree...I think Mauer, looking like his old self, is best in the 3 spot until Kepler is ready to take it from him. I really believe that is his future spot.

 

I also agree on the rotation. It just makes too much sense to not be that way, though we do run in to the 6 men for 5 spot debate. I also can't argue with your bullpen, though I think it's more fluid. Even with the Hughes move there, there are multiple possibilities there to be determined.

[Shane Wahl]

The extreme version of this looks something like this:

Gibson-May-Berrios-Duffey-Meyer

 

Melotakis, Chargois, Rogers, Burdi (when healthy), Abad, Tonkin, Jepsen, Perkins

 

Mauer, 1B

Polanco, SS

Sano, 3B

Arcia, RF

Park, DH

Dozier, 2B

Rosario, LF

Turner, C

Buxton, CF

 

Kepler, Garver, Santana, Escobar/Beresford (latter if trading Escobar)

 

 

And I would be happier with something closer to this than what is currently occurring. Start it June 15. Trade, trade, trade.

[Ncgo4]

Kepler is not yet hitting in Rochester, though in recent games he's showing some signs. It makes no sense to move him up at this time. I really think he could be a star, but let him work some things out in AAA. When they do move him up ...play him!!!

[Mr. Brooks]

Let's see: after disposing of everybody who can make any claim of being a major league player how do you justify charging admission for games? If every fan (except for TD armchair GMs) revolt, how do you explain to all of the state that they should continue to pay for a stadium that is supposed to be used for MLB games (except they really aren't!)? I have read oh so many posts about players being "rushed", and now every prospect is to prove himself at the major league level? Hmm, panic attack to me.

How do they justify charging admission now?

[sane17]

Come on Howie. Enough people have poked enough holes in your posts to prove you incorrect.

People poking holes doesn't "PROVE" anything!

Everyone has opinions (as well as certain anatomical parts), but those opinions are not to be confused with proof.