Yes... But

[Riverbrian]

It's rather obvious to look at the bullpen as a culprit last night. The Bullpen was clearly a culprit last night but I do want to point out that the Twins managed only two hits and the Tigers were terrible in the field. 

 

It's a team game and that was a team loss. That game was there for the taking. 

 

 

[Platoon]

I just got done sending a "rant" about this to a different blogger. You cannot keep hoping to score runs on walks, misplayed dribblers in the infield, and sac flys to the second baseman. It's been a season long problem that is catching up to them. No power from any corner position, and what seems to be an enormous amount of strike outs in high leverage situations. While Sano has tapered off, he has shown what a serious threat in the middle of the order can do for an offense. Since it's been so long since we had one, I think we have forgotten what it's like, and fallen into the complacency of believing that the middle of the order hitters we are trotting out there are offensive threats.

[bluechipper]

To only get one hit off of a nothing pitcher like Boyd is really frustrating. I expected a much better performance last night. Hopefully Molitor tries to mix it up and give Kepler a shot to see if he can provide a spark.

[twinsnorth49]

Yes...........but, if your team has you up by a 4 spot through 6, it shouldn't  be much to expect a halfway decent bullpen to carry it through.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You are unlikely to win only getting 2 hits, because you are unlikely to score 4 runs off 2 hits.

 

However, once 4 runs are scored on just 1 hit, it becomes a winnable game. And when your starter holds them to 1 run over 5 in the same game, it becomes very winnable.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Usually when I disagree with the Twins, I see the logic and reasoning behind their decision. I just can't see it with riding Perkins as long as they did last night, it made no sense from a game perspective, from a player management perspective, nothing.

 

Anybody hear any post game comments from Molitor on it?

[USAFChief]

I can sorta understand riding Perkins, given the options.

 

Given his second half, and his last night, I understand questioning leaving him in.

 

In the bigger picture, I think more than anything, to me it is just another data point confirming my belief that a strong and deep bullpen is very valuable asset in big league baseball.

 

Much more valuable than what is often popular opinion. And not something that is "easy to build," another popular opinion.

 

You need multiple guys out there who can be relied on. If you enter most MLB games with the better pitching in the last 3 innings, you have one of the bigger advantages in the game, IMO.

 

I hope TR really attempts to upgrade over the winter, I hope May stays out there, and I hope some minor league arms are ready and dominant by early next season. The bullpen was the weakest point on this this team.

[nicksaviking]

I didn't get to see the first five, but I don't care how shakey Pelfrey was, you can't turn the game over to Biyer and Fien in the sixth if May is unavailable.

[Winston Smith]

Did we know about this bullpen problem back in June and July? What did they do about it?

[twinsnorth49]

 

Did we know about this bullpen problem back in June and July? What did they do about it?

Jepsen.................good enough.

[howieramone2]

 

Did we know about this bullpen problem back in June and July? What did they do about it?

They moved May to the bullpen and traded for Jepsen and Cotts.

[Winston Smith]

They moved May to the bullpen and traded for Jepsen and Cotts.

And you think that was enough? Clearly the problem was solved?

[Winston Smith]

Jepsen.................good enough.

Really?

[twinsnorth49]

 

Really?

No,  you missed the sarcasm.

 

I meant TR got Jepsen and decided, good enough.

[Kwak]

 

I can sorta understand riding Perkins, given the options.

Given his second half, and his last night, I understand questioning leaving him in.

In the bigger picture, I think more than anything, to me it is just another data point confirming my belief that a strong and deep bullpen is very valuable asset in big league baseball.

Much more valuable than what is often popular opinion. And not something that is "easy to build," another popular opinion.

You need multiple guys out there who can be relied on. If you enter most MLB games with the better pitching in the last 3 innings, you have one of the bigger advantages in the game, IMO.

I hope TR really attempts to upgrade over the winter, I hope May stays out there, and I hope some minor league arms are ready and dominant by early next season. The bullpen was the weakest point on this this team.

Chief, you identified the real problem--but then ignored it!  The problem is the concept of a six-inning start. In the first half of the season, teams can succeed with that strategy (the Twins did this all through the Gardenhire era) but then the bullpen gets both burned-out and batters "learn" the RPs "stuff" due to overuse.  Teams (Twins) need to use their starters longer (beyond this mythical 100-pitch "limit") to limit bullpen use.  The "fatigue" on the starters can be managed by the use of "spot" starters.  A "skipped-start" is scheduled to permit some rest for the starters.  This used to be the role of the "5th starter"--and it worked well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Adding May and Jepsen, plus filling in around the edges with Cotts, wasn't too bad, but Perkins problems were apparent in July, that offset one of the additions

[USAFChief]

Chief, you identified the real problem--but then ignored it!  The problem is the concept of a six-inning start. In the first half of the season, teams can succeed with that strategy (the Twins did this all through the Gardenhire era) but then the bullpen gets both burned-out and batters "learn" the RPs "stuff" due to overuse.  Teams (Twins) need to use their starters longer (beyond this mythical 100-pitch "limit") to limit bullpen use.  The "fatigue" on the starters can be managed by the use of "spot" starters.  A "skipped-start" is scheduled to permit some rest for the starters.  This used to be the role of the "5th starter"--and it worked well.

I disagree.

 

Innings from starters, both in-game and per season, have been on a steady decline for a century.

 

I don't see that changing, nor do I think it would necessarily be a good idea.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Last night felt like some kind of brute force attempt to finally make Perkins right. Even in his diminished state he had a role in this pen, but after his meltdowns, time off, and cortisone shots, powering through multiple innings while racking up a high pitch count so clearly was not that role.

 

And judging by his reactions, it probably broke him for the season. Way to go, Molly!

[jimbo92107]

It's rather obvious to look at the bullpen as a culprit last night. The Bullpen was clearly a culprit last night but I do want to point out that the Twins managed only two hits and the Tigers were terrible in the field. 

 

It's a team game and that was a team loss. That game was there for the taking. 

Flip the script for a moment. Imagine that starter Trevor May goes five one-run innings in a playoff hunt, then Mike Pelfrey steps in to give the team two or three clean innings, better than Casey Fein, and he can do that every other day.

 

That's the beauty of having Pelfrey in the pen in 2016. That's why the Twins should offer him a new contract based on being a middle reliever, where he'd be dominant for four or five years. As a starter, Pelfrey is a disaster waiting to happen after five innings. Either he gets fatigued or they figure out his 2- or 3-pitch mix. But give him 3 to 6 batters, and he can blow them away before they adjust.

 

Meanwhile, Trevor May should be one of the big, strong young starters that can give this team seven innings per outing. Of course I'm talking about 2016. I also see bullpen roles for Hughes and Nolasco, with possible spot starts for any one of them. That's the best way to use guys whose arms are getting too worn out for starting. The pen is for rookies, specialists, and aging veterans.

[DocBauer]

I've been involved with a few friendly debates on TD previously about the Twins bullpen through the years, how they were almost always good and reliable year to year, etc. It has been argued against me that over the past 10 years or so, the Twins bullpen only ranked middle of the pack in terms of ERA and other qualifiers, and thus, were overrated and the Twins always having a solid bullpen was a bit of a myth.

 

I have argued that being consistent is indeed a strength, and that building a decent to good bullpen year after year is not something to be taken lightly or for granted. Witness Detroit that past few seasons when they seemed primed for a championship run only to have their bullpen be the chief culprit for failure to do so.

 

 

[USAFChief]

The pen is for rookies, specialists, and aging veterans.

Do. Not. Concur.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

It looked like Ryan and Molitor were playing a game of chicken with the bullpen the second half. Ryan does the absolute bare minimum required to upgrade it, so Molitor maxes out the very few arms he really trusts. Now those guys are all used up, fresher guys are sitting at home, and no one wins.

 

Join me in song, as we close out our service for 2015.

[Kwak]

 

It looked like Ryan and Molitor were playing a game of chicken with the bullpen the second half. Ryan does the absolute bare minimum required to upgrade it, so Molitor maxes out the very few arms he really trusts. Now those guys are all used up, fresher guys are sitting at home, and no one wins.

Join me in song, as we close out our service for 2015.

This is what happens when starters are "protected", relievers are abused and the manager is allowed to "play chess" with the bullpen.  

[stringer bell]

The bullpen managed to survive the first half well because Perkins was elite, Boyer was a huge surprise for about six weeks and starters carried the game late with more frequency. Fien and Boyer will take the ball, but they can't be overused. May and Jepsen look solid in the back, so if Perkins is some type of OK, that is the start to a pretty good pen. A team needs lots of depth and good options. I don't know if anyone can predict who will be good from year to year,

[spinowner]

 

 I don't know if anyone can predict who will be good from year to year,

I think this probably applies to most teams and their bullpens. It seems like relievers move from team to team and up and down within organizations more than starters and position players. I'm not going to take the time to analyze statistics, but I have the impression that the Twins have done better than most teams in cobbling a bullpen together from year to year. 

[ashbury]

May and Jepsen look solid in the back

To make this true, a stud closer (whether you adhere to defined roles or not) is needed. Perk, as you say, can be that guy but currently simply is not. Needing to cast either of these two in the stud role may work, but potentially will expose them, though we have high hopes for May.

 

I've been slow to accept May as reliable in this role. Anecdotal evidence for me is that he gives up a lot of squared up hits, whether caught or not, and is perpetually one mis-located fastball away from blowing any close lead. However, I took a look at his split stats, and he seems to have a moderately high BABIP, around .340, as either a starter and reliever, and conventional wisdom says that will come down of its own accord. That in turn would make his current 3.03 ERA as a reliever begin to look very effective indeed. Maybe I just need to take a breath and relax when he's called in.

[FattCrapps]

Too lazy to look it up, but when was the last time the Twins won and Astros lost on the same day?  Everytime the Twins win, the Stros (and Angels) win.  I swear, besides the games they've played against each other, the standings never change.

 

 

[Dantes929]

Problems   lately has been the unreliability of all star closer Perkins and injury to May.    Would like to point out that last night's game was 3 scoreless in a tight game against the league's best offense.   Perkins blowing 4 games in about a 10 game stretch after the break was the biggest negative.   Mostly otherwise it seemed like the pen gave up runs in games that were probably already lost and they contributed to a lot of wins.    People just don't notice when they do their job.  Relievers give up runs.