Can we put down the pitchforks?

[SwainZag]

I'm sure I'll get burned for this, but every thread doesn't need to turn into the front office being fired.  Things can STILL be discussed beyond that.  Player's can still perform on their own without being a complete fault of the GM.  It gets old.  It's driving people away.  

[jimmer]

So the idea is to just blame the players and not the level of talent put on the roster year after year?

 

And who do these discussions drive away, Front Office fans?

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I actually like O'Rourke. I like his strikeout numbers and this bullpen needs strikeouts badly. From the sound of it, he was shell shocked pitching in that big situation tonight, which was unfortunate.

 

The pitching still has a long way to go, but the everyday lineup is very close to being very, very good. Sano is potentially elite. His name could be on the home run leaderboard in 2016 with the benefit of starting on opening day like everyone else.

[Craig Arko]

Terry Ryan is a cancer survivor. I doubt the mob mentality of the web will get to him. Still, it may be time for change at that level, like it came to be at the field staff level.

 

Be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Gernzy]

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

[Shane Wahl]

 

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

 

Is this a serious question? None of us are in any position to be better at the job. There are perhaps dozens who are, right now, however.

[RichardMcBeef]

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure I can't do a better job then even the worst Twins player (Nishioka) that doesn't mean you can't want them replaced.

[Jham]

Terry Ryan deserves some credit in getting the team back to respectability.  The future is bright.  I think it's fair, given his history, to question whether he is best to lead toward championship.  It's not really fair to look at his biggest mistakes, and not credit him for things like the Dozier and Perkins signing, finding Boyer and Hunter for half the year, perhaps the patience with Hicks, etc.

[Squirrel]

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

I think most realize we couldn't do better. I've acknowledged it many times, that I do not possess the baseball acumen, not even one iota close to it, that those in charge do. And while I don't have any idea of the internal workings and goings on, I do see the results and they are unacceptable to me. Worse, even to me, things could have been done that weren't. There are no excuses left here. There is only one person left here to own this. And it's past due time for that person to go, in my most humble opinion.

[Squirrel]

Terry Ryan deserves some credit in getting the team back to respectability.  The future is bright.  I think it's fair, given his history, to question whether he is best to lead toward championship.  It's not really fair to look at his biggest mistakes, and not credit him for things like the Dozier and Perkins signing, finding Boyer and Hunter for half the year, perhaps the patience with Hicks, etc.

That's a fair perspective. But doing nothing at the deadline, again, doing nothing now. It's just really hard to take and it's time. I don't think anyone is trying to negate his many accomplishments, but we just can't move forward with him in charge. It's just time.

[Twins7]

Agreed. I think that it's fine to have threads breaking down the faults of the front office (we all know they have many) and commiserating in our agony over the recent futility of our team, but it gets old seeing every discussion of this team turn into an assault on the front office. We get it, the bullpen sucks, and Suzuki sucks, and nolasco and Santana suck, and it's all TR's fault. Not every thread has to turn into the blame game.

 

Baseball is a zero-sum game, and some teams are going to be bad every year. The exceptions to that rule are the teams with massive fan bases that spend double the money on payroll than the twins, and win more often. In terms of performance relative to payroll, the twins front office hasn't done as poorly as it seems in the last decade and a half. Compared to the rays and As, two teams with well respected front offices, the twins have stacked up, and I think exceeded their performance. None of the teams have won a World Series in the last decade and a half, but I think the twins had the most opportunities.

 

I'm also frusterated by the lack of big splashes in free agency and trades - not picking up elite players - and I think it is a big reason why the twins didn't win a World Series in the 2000's. But, I'm legitimately curious what you guys think: do you think that TR would have been more active in acquiring elite talent through free agents and trades if he had been the Yankees or Red Sox GM? I have to imagine he would have been...

 

TR isn't close to being the best GM in baseball, but he's without question not the worst. If we had the Rockies front office, or the Mariners... That'd be miserable.

[Twins7]

Here's a good data set including payroll and win % for all teams from 2000-2011. I don't have time to sort it and divide it out now, but I'll do it later. It'll be interesting to see how the twins stack up.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1mUOLBQvCpod8I1q_gxd78ef5_lgsEzS9N-6R4mp9clA/htmlview#

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

I'm sure I'll get burned for this, but every thread doesn't need to turn into the front office being fired.  Things can STILL be discussed beyond that.  Player's can still perform on their own without being a complete fault of the GM.  It gets old.  It's driving people away.  

I'll not call for the GM's head this season, but even for the strongest of optimists, this season is really starting to hurt. My six year old and I were watching the game when A-Fraud hit and he said; "Every time I think something good is going to happen; it doesn't". ;(

[bird]

I don't mind the criticisms, except when they are extreme and completely unbalanced.

 

But I loathe it when people take gutless character potshots at Ryan or anyone else. Especially the subtle ones where he gets portrayed as dishonest, stupid, or worse. There are some commenters who specialize in doing this and are quite adept at it. I'd love to see less of this.

 

The other thing that needs to go away are references to Ryan Haters and Front Office fans. Those labels are polarizing and unfriendly.

 

I tend to cut the manager and front office more slack the most (although not when it comes to this disgusting trade deadline). I pushed back at a lot of the harshest criticism of Gardy. I was eventually convinced that his time here had run its course by reasoned and civil arguments by the good people here.

I might be convinced of the same regarding Ryan, but not by the pitchfork crowd.

[LimestoneBaggy]

Oh yeah, and the Yankees suck.

[Badsmerf]

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

Yes. I'm confident I can do a better job than he has. I don't think this job is easy, but it takes a different personality to do it well. I will never be given the opportunity, so it's pretty much a moot point.

 

More than anything, I believe a gm is like a CEO. Getting the most out of the talent you have, and recruiting the best talent. In my view, he has failed to unimaginable levels.

[Loosey]

 

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

Probably not at the full capacity of GM, but MLB roster management I could make an argument that many here could do it as well if not better.  If not, there are a lot of deserving baseball men out there who have paid their dues in other teams front offices who could do a much better job.

 

Also, I think a lot of the people on this message board who follow the Twins as hobby have had better foresight and ideas than Terry Ryan has when it comes to managing this teams roster.  Terry Ryan is paid a lot of money to run this team and it is only job.  While the TD readers who have other full time jobs have often called out what is going to happen if a change isn't made, while Ryan hasn't been able to see the same things or has chosen not to act on it.

[Loosey]

 

 

Agreed. I think that it's fine to have threads breaking down the faults of the front office (we all know they have many) and commiserating in our agony over the recent futility of our team, but it gets old seeing every discussion of this team turn into an assault on the front office. We get it, the bullpen sucks, and Suzuki sucks, and nolasco and Santana suck, and it's all TR's fault. Not every thread has to turn into the blame game.

Baseball is a zero-sum game, and some teams are going to be bad every year. The exceptions to that rule are the teams with massive fan bases that spend double the money on payroll than the twins, and win more often. In terms of performance relative to payroll, the twins front office hasn't done as poorly as it seems in the last decade and a half. Compared to the rays and As, two teams with well respected front offices, the twins have stacked up, and I think exceeded their performance. None of the teams have won a World Series in the last decade and a half, but I think the twins had the most opportunities.

I'm also frusterated by the lack of big splashes in free agency and trades - not picking up elite players - and I think it is a big reason why the twins didn't win a World Series in the 2000's. But, I'm legitimately curious what you guys think: do you think that TR would have been more active in acquiring elite talent through free agents and trades if he had been the Yankees or Red Sox GM? I have to imagine he would have been...

TR isn't close to being the best GM in baseball, but he's without question not the worst. If we had the Rockies front office, or the Mariners... That'd be miserable.

I would disagree on your comparison to the A's and Rays.

 

First of all the AL Central in the mid 2000's was the weakest in baseball and the Twins owned it.

 

The Rays play in the AL East with the Yankees and Red Sox and still put together a great stretch and reached a WS.

 

The A's play in the AL West with good teams as well.  The A's had a dominant stretch in the mid 2000's as well as the Twins with what I think was a tougher division.  The A's also know when it is time to abandon ship and reload their roster with young cheap players and develop them.  The Twins never figured out how to start over completely.

[Seth Stohs]

Forums are built, and some of the articles today encourage, debate and negative discussion about the front office, players, manager, etc. Some of it is deserved. Some of it is a bit much. 

 

I just don't like when it's day after day and forum after forum of saying the same things. That's what gets old.

 

 

[dbminn]

I've been reading less at this site because it's starting to sound like a fifth grade home room - the name calling and hyperbole is getting out of control. I'm not a "front-office lover", just bored with smug second guessers.  

 

The Twins are performing about as expected. Next year should be better yet.  Ryan and his organization have put this team in great position for the next five years. They've drafted well and signed some fine international free agents.

 

Do I think Ryan should stay? No - I don't think he's the best person to make the trades that are needed this offseason (among other reasons). Is Ryan an idiot? Not at all. You think Ryan should've sold the farm this year for big money veterans? Great. The point can be made without the shallow name calling - especially of those here who disagree.

 

Thankfully, the senior contributors write consistently solid articles and, along with many of the fans here, provide fine forum commentary (even if they disagree with me).   

[goulik]

I think the true source of frustration for those tired of the pitchforks on TD is the day to day changes. Someone hits poorly for a week or pitches poorly 2-3 straight appearances and the pitchforks appear. Likewise, someone goes on a tear for 3 straight starts striking out hitters at a career pace or hit well for two straight weeks and the contract extension talks begin.

People, baseball is streaky and has ups and downs. Get off the SSS bandwagons. As for TR, the jury is still out. The rebuild was supposed to produce a mediocre team this year. If we are close to a 90 loss team, fire him.TR looked like a genius in Early June and the Santana signing looked good at first. Everyone hated Pelfrey until he was a great pitcher for 2 months, TR was told not to trade him by TD and then he tanked and he's a fool for not trading him. SSS on TR is looking at the past Months lack of moves. Should there have been moves at the deadline? I thought so. He failed to produce a champion in the first decade of this millennium, true. But the time to discuss TR is after the season is over and we see the full results of his work.

[Twins7]

I would disagree on your comparison to the A's and Rays.

 

First of all the AL Central in the mid 2000's was the weakest in baseball and the Twins owned it.

 

The Rays play in the AL East with the Yankees and Red Sox and still put together a great stretch and reached a WS.

 

The A's play in the AL West with good teams as well.  The A's had a dominant stretch in the mid 2000's as well as the Twins with what I think was a tougher division.  The A's also know when it is time to abandon ship and reload their roster with young cheap players and develop them.  The Twins never figured out how to start over completely.

Thats a good point, I mostly agree with you there. The Rays run was pretty impressive given their competition. The AL central was pretty weak, but some of those twins teams were just a pitcher or two and a few lucky bounces away from a World Series IMO.

 

The twins did decide to start over almost completely after 2010, though, dropping Moreau, cuddyer, Garza (? Or was he earlier), and eventually span and revere. Going almost exclusively with young, cheap arms (which hasn't paid any dividends). They did develop some real talent in dozier and plouffe, and maybe hicks and Gibson, during these painful years. They just had a totally different approach than the As, who were heavy participants in the trade and free agent markets. The patience of TR is tough to swallow, and borders on ineptitude, but I think it might pay dividends with a legitimate championship team this decade. It seems that TRs put all his money on a core of Sano, Buxton, Rosario, dozier, Gibson, May, and Berrios (and perhaps hicks, Arcia, d Santana, and Vargas) leading the twins to a championship. The patient, build through the draft approach takes more time than beane's approach, but I think it is the best way to build a strong, cheap core of players with strong emotional ties to the team and to each other. Time will tell if this core has what it takes.

[Vanimal46]

I get it. That's why I've slowed down on posting too because the topics and conversations are basically the same each day. But I think we're getting mad at the wrong people here. The forums and topics reflect the team's performance. During the month of May each forum topic was nothing's gonna stop us now, duckies and bunnies, and some sprinkling of concerns/red flags going forward. These days.... not so much.

 

We can get mad talking about the same topics over and over again. But if anything, be mad at the team, not the posters bringing up these topics. Doesn't it say something that diehard and casual fans have recognized these problems for months, and very minimal has been done to solve them? 

[HitInAPinch]

 

That's a fair perspective. But doing nothing at the deadline, again, doing nothing now. It's just really hard to take and it's time. I don't think anyone is trying to negate his many accomplishments, but we just can't move forward with him in charge. It's just time.

So, what would you have done at the deadline?  Twins do not have enough talent to make trades.  They need what little they have to augment the younger players as they're called up.  Or try more of the free agent route, where no star [or even just good] player would want to sign with the Twins? 

 

The Twins are a good 2 years away from being a real contender.  Adding to the salary-base now makes no sense.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Agreed. I think that it's fine to have threads breaking down the faults of the front office (we all know they have many) and commiserating in our agony over the recent futility of our team, but it gets old seeing every discussion of this team turn into an assault on the front office. We get it, the bullpen sucks, and Suzuki sucks, and nolasco and Santana suck, and it's all TR's fault. Not every thread has to turn into the blame game.

Baseball is a zero-sum game, and some teams are going to be bad every year. The exceptions to that rule are the teams with massive fan bases that spend double the money on payroll than the twins, and win more often. In terms of performance relative to payroll, the twins front office hasn't done as poorly as it seems in the last decade and a half. Compared to the rays and As, two teams with well respected front offices, the twins have stacked up, and I think exceeded their performance. None of the teams have won a World Series in the last decade and a half, but I think the twins had the most opportunities.

I'm also frusterated by the lack of big splashes in free agency and trades - not picking up elite players - and I think it is a big reason why the twins didn't win a World Series in the 2000's. But, I'm legitimately curious what you guys think: do you think that TR would have been more active in acquiring elite talent through free agents and trades if he had been the Yankees or Red Sox GM? I have to imagine he would have been...

TR isn't close to being the best GM in baseball, but he's without question not the worst. If we had the Rockies front office, or the Mariners... That'd be miserable.

What the heck would Ryan be able to trade for elite talent?  I watched the whole comedy over the Tulo trade suggestions:  i.e.  If you bundle enough stuff, you'll get Tulo.     Free agency?  We've already seen the only talent level they'll be able to acquire.

 

[mickeymental]

what if terry ryan had made the big deadline trade: berrios and buxton for tulo and latroy. and what if tulo had his same results: 6-for-15 with 3 xbh in three games (hr and 2 doubles in game one), 9-for-50 with 3 xbh ever since. for the first week ryan coulda run for mayor but by now he'd be run outa town -- especially if either ex-twin was doing well. so maybe tulo ends up the 2015 world series mvp or maybe he'll never be great again. should the twins have made the trade? does anybody REALLY know?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'll not call for the GM's head this season, but even for the strongest of optimists, this season is really starting to hurt. My six year old and I were watching the game when A-Fraud hit and he said; "Every time I think something good is going to happen; it doesn't". ;(

1. This post is spot-on.

 

2. I hope your kid isn't a Vikings fan.

[JaleelWhite FanClub]

I think the majority of the criticism over the past month stems from Ryan's comments right before the deadline. He praised the team and stated now it was his job to go out and find pieces to add to the roster to give it a better shot at making the postseason. In this regard he failed. Jepson has been good, but his addition obviously did not solve the overall problem of the bullpen. Meanwhile the starting rotation has gone up in flames and the lineup has failed to produce runs consistently.

 

The calls for his job are more tied to the recognized mentality and methods the FO has continued to employ with the same lousy results. Moves that have become commonplace and expected, like "buy high, sell low" trades or signings, the tendency to rely on known, low-risk veterans, and the apprehension to make innovative, more drastic changes continue to be employed and are now frustratingly expected.

 

The criticism is fair and should be as expected by the front office as their lack of results has become to fans.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

what if terry ryan had made the big deadline trade: berrios and buxton for tulo and latroy.

Twins fans here on TD were proposing this? Do you have a link?

[Boom Boom]

So, what would you have done at the deadline? Twins do not have enough talent to make trades. They need what little they have to augment the younger players as they're called up. Or try more of the free agent route, where no star [or even just good] player would want to sign with the Twins?

 

The Twins are a good 2 years away from being a real contender. Adding to the salary-base now makes no sense.

Personally I would have liked to see the Twins either a) make a serious effort to make this team a playoff team, or b ) sell off as much as they could to reload.

 

I don't understand the Jepsen trade at all. If they really thought they had a shot this year, it didn't take a great scouting mind to tell that it wasn't going to be enough. And if they knew the 2015 team was a May mirage, then it doesn't make sense to trade even mid-level prospects for a veteran reliever. They could have waited until free agency and gotten two or three Jepsens without trading anything.

 

In summation, my issue was that the Twins couldn't decide one way or another.