Nunez is not a major league SS

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

"while there is even a 1% chance remaining for a good outcome"

 

IMO there was 0% chance for a good outcome. Nunez's throw to 1B was emotional, not stupid. He did NOT think there were two outs, or he would have been playing BACK for a play at 1B.

The golf analogy is throwing your club(s) into the water hazard AFTER a bad shot.

That wasn't part of your plan.

It did no good.

It wasn't smart.

But your brain wasn't in charge at that time!

There wasn't a 0% chance until that runner crossed the plate.  In any case, I absolutely don't want Nunez computing those percentages until that runner crosses the plate.  That's not his job.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nunez thought there were two outs before the play.  But I think it's a valid question that he may have had a brain fart at the very moment the ball was put in play and coming toward him, not necessarily believing that there were two outs but even just unnecessarily querying his brain one last time for the number of outs and where to throw the ball could have been enough to throw him off and cause the bobble.

 

Regardless of what happened before the bobble, he deserves plenty of crap for allowing his brain to shut off afterward as you say.  His *one job* on that play was to get the ball to the catcher.  I get that they're human, but an MLB player can't completely lose focus in that critical moment, to the point of making a nonsense throw, completely divorced from your *one job* on the play, at any time before the winning run crosses the plate.  

[Platoon]

The Twins absolutely can win with Esco as the starting shortstop.  By OPS, he ranks 19th in the majors, which is higher than Gregorious, Andrus, Aybar, Alcides Escobar, Mercer, Hardy, and Castro, all of whom have played shortstop for teams with better records than the Twins.  By UZR/150, he ranks 17th, ahead of Cabrera, Mercer, Castro, Peralta, Tulowitzki, Aybar, Andrus, and Desmond.  By those two metrics, Escobar is flat-out better than Mercer, Castro, Aybar, and Andrus.  The notion Esco can't be our starting shortstop if we want to win is ridiculous.

To reiterate mine, and the Chiefs point! (If I may be so bold as to be that presumptuous) They can win with EE, or even Nunez at SS, as long as the rest of the team is strong enough to make up for their mediocrity. The Twins don't currently have a Morneau, early Mauer, Killebrew, Puckett, Iggy, Trout, et al on their roster, that will carry a team. Sanyo, Buxton in the future? Possibly. We don't have a shutdown starter, or even a shutdown RP anymore. It's what it is, win some, lose some, hover around .500. Last time I looked .500 wasn't winning, and it wasn't losing, and as a rule it wasn't in the PO.

[dxpavelka]

REALLY????  Just now coming to this conclusion??  Never took the time to wonder why the Yankees scuttled him just before Jeter was about to exit stage left?

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

To reiterate mine, and the Chiefs point! (If I may be so bold as to be that presumptuous) They can win with EE, or even Nunez at SS, as long as the rest of the team is strong enough to make up for their mediocrity. The Twins don't currently have a Morneau, early Mauer, Killebrew, Puckett, Iggy, Trout, et al on their roster, that will carry a team. Sanyo, Buxton in the future? Possibly. We don't have a shutdown starter, or even a shutdown RP anymore. It's what it is, win some, lose some, hover around .500. Last time I looked .500 wasn't winning, and it wasn't losing, and as a rule it wasn't in the PO.

 

So you're blaming Escobar for the rest of the Twins lineup not being good enough?  Escobar is better than the shortstops for the Pirates, Cubs, Angels, and Rangers, and as recently as last year was a top 10 offensive shortstop in the league, and top 15 in defense.  The Twins current struggles are much more to do with our shortcomings at catcher and in right field, combined with inconsistent performances from our pitchers.

[Vanimal46]

 

The Twins absolutely can win with Esco as the starting shortstop.  By OPS, he ranks 19th in the majors, which is higher than Gregorious, Andrus, Aybar, Alcides Escobar, Mercer, Hardy, and Castro, all of whom have played shortstop for teams with better records than the Twins.  By UZR/150, he ranks 17th, ahead of Cabrera, Mercer, Castro, Peralta, Tulowitzki, Aybar, Andrus, and Desmond.  By those two metrics, Escobar is flat-out better than Mercer, Castro, Aybar, and Andrus.  The notion Esco can't be our starting shortstop if we want to win is ridiculous.

 

Can you send that info to One Twins Way, Minneapolis MN 55403 and CC Terry Ryan? Clearly we know more about him than the people making the decisions. Considering he has more starts in LF than SS......... 

[SwainZag]

 

To reiterate mine, and the Chiefs point! (If I may be so bold as to be that presumptuous) They can win with EE, or even Nunez at SS, as long as the rest of the team is strong enough to make up for their mediocrity. The Twins don't currently have a Morneau, early Mauer, Killebrew, Puckett, Iggy, Trout, et al on their roster, that will carry a team. Sanyo, Buxton in the future? Possibly. We don't have a shutdown starter, or even a shutdown RP anymore. It's what it is, win some, lose some, hover around .500. Last time I looked .500 wasn't winning, and it wasn't losing, and as a rule it wasn't in the PO.

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I love adding my 2¢ to these discussions. I don't think we'll ever know where Nunez would have thrown the ball. Once there's a bobble, all bets are off.

 

The real question is, why did Paul O'Neill kick the ball to first when he should have kicked it to home plate (or at least the cutoff man)

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/assets/images/6/8/6/80070686/cuts/PaulOneill_0da8gdrs_111z9ifp.gif

[Loosey]

 

I think you forgot the situation. There were no outs. He had to throw home. But, after he bobbled the ball, it was too later. Then I threw up.

the double play I was thinking was 6-2-3 Double play. 

[Halsey Hall]

It looked to me he looked at the runner on 3rd and took his eye off the ball and booted it.

[Dr. Evil]

It was sort of an in between hop and he didn't have time to move his feet to adjust to it. Not a horrible error imho.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

the double play I was thinking was 6-2-3 Double play. 

Fair enough.

[Vanimal46]

 

I love adding my 2¢ to these discussions. I don't think we'll ever know where Nunez would have thrown the ball. Once there's a bobble, all bets are off.

 

The real question is, why did Paul O'Neill kick the ball to first when he should have kicked it to home plate (or at least the cutoff man)

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/assets/images/6/8/6/80070686/cuts/PaulOneill_0da8gdrs_111z9ifp.gif

 

 

This is my first time watching this clip ever... I can't believe that worked!!

[sane]

"The YES broadcast showed a slow replay of it and it looked clear that Nunez thought there were 2 outs"

 

 

"I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nunez thought there were two outs before the play"

 

I think someone was suggesting that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

"The YES broadcast showed a slow replay of it and it looked clear that Nunez thought there were 2 outs"

 

 

"I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nunez thought there were two outs before the play"

 

I think someone was suggesting that.

That quote doesn't say anything about before the play, which is what you were disputing. I think the implication is there was a moment of doubt or hesitation during the play.

[Otto von Ballpark]

It looked to me he looked at the runner on 3rd and took his eye off the ball and booted it.

Which is still inexcusable. The runner at third wasn't all that important but forcing him at home was.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Which is still inexcusable. The runner at third wasn't all that important but forcing him at home was.

Yeah... Given that the bases were loaded, where did Nunez think the runner at third was going? The dugout?

 

Only one thing mattered in that play: getting the ball to home plate.

[darin617]

The real question would be he was the last quality SS to play for the Twins? Christian Guzman? Am i missing someone, pretty bad when you have to go back to 2004 for a decent choice. Or you could say the one season with a hurt JJ Hardy.

For a team with so many high draft choices and this supposedly great system they just can't develop any talent at SS or catcher for over 10 years. Time for heads to roll and hire people who can actually scout and develop some talent.

[Secondary User]

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v381289383/minnyy-headley-hits-a-walkoff-groundout-in-10th

I know its a moot point by now but does he look like he's going home to you?

Slow-mo at 00:45

 

Yes.....it does

[DaveW]

The real question would be he was the last quality SS to play for the Twins? Christian Guzman? Am i missing someone, pretty bad when you have to go back to 2004 for a decent choice. Or you could say the one season with a hurt JJ Hardy.

For a team with so many high draft choices and this supposedly great system they just can't develop any talent at SS or catcher for over 10 years. Time for heads to roll and hire people who can actually scout and develop some talent.

Nishioka

 

They also developed Ramos who was a good catcher. SS are hard to develop in general, Dozier and Plouffe are two examples of guys who projected to be SS but ultimately couldn't "hack it" defensively at the position.

As far as other SS: hardy wasn't bad, OCab wasn't bad.

[jimbo92107]

 

That reaction was AFTER the bobble and AFTER it was too late to throw home. There was NO CORRECT play for him at that time, so his play became just reactionary. Any player who is playing UP, knows the play is at home and the PRIORITY baserunner is at third base.

I agree with sane on this. Nunez's throw to first wasn't out of confusion, it was an act of frustration. He knew the game was blown the instant he bobbled the grounder. No way to get the winning runner at home, so he simply released his frustration by gunning it to first.

 

Eduardo Nunez does suffer from lapses of concentration, and the bobble may have been one of those. That doesn't make Nunez stupid. Frankly, it makes him more like me. I can relate to blown plays and missed opportunities. It's so much more common than the errorless perfection of a superstar baseball player. We sometimes forget that even in the show, most guys are fighting just to stay afloat, like Nunez and Escobar. Blowing plays doesn't make a guy stupid, it make him more like us.

[Halsey Hall]

 

Yes.....it does

Watch all the way thru to the second cut and you can seem him take his eyes off the ball and glance toward home or up the 3rd base line.  Clearly he was going home with it.

[Platoon]

It looked to me he looked at the runner on 3rd and took his eye off the ball and booted it.

Plouffe woulda ate that one up!

[Platoon]

Nishioka

They also developed Ramos who was a good catcher. SS are hard to develop in general, Dozier and Plouffe are two examples of guys who projected to be SS but ultimately couldn't "hack it" defensively at the position.

As far as other SS: hardy wasn't bad, OCab wasn't bad.

We didn't develop Nishy. He was that bad before we had a chance to!

[SwainZag]

 

The real question would be he was the last quality SS to play for the Twins? Christian Guzman? Am i missing someone, pretty bad when you have to go back to 2004 for a decent choice. Or you could say the one season with a hurt JJ Hardy.

For a team with so many high draft choices and this supposedly great system they just can't develop any talent at SS or catcher for over 10 years. Time for heads to roll and hire people who can actually scout and develop some talent.

 

If above average SS and C were a dime and dozen and the Twins were still struggling I'd be with you.  For a team with so many high draft choices.....why don't we wait until they actually get the pros before chastising them?  Buxton is the 1st of those high picks to make the majors......and he's 21.  They used a very high pick on SS Nick Gordon who very well could be the SS of the future, but he needs time.

[Secondary User]

 

Watch all the way thru to the second cut and you can seem him take his eyes off the ball and glance toward home or up the 3rd base line.  Clearly he was going home with it.

 

And he was swinging his hips around to get in line to throw home.  If he was going to first the whole way, he's just shuffling

[sane]

 

That quote doesn't say anything about before the play, which is what you were disputing. I think the implication is there was a moment of doubt or hesitation during the play.

I would say that it is RARE for a fielder to confirm the number of outs PRE-PITCH, and then RE-THINK what he had already confirmed, AFTER he booted the ball.

I never did that playing, and I have never heard of a player doing that when I was coaching.