Nunez is not a major league SS

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

This is weird, I actually posted in the game thread how impressed I have been with Nunez's defense this year. Whenever I have watched I have noticed that he has looked decent. But, over the past week I have seen multiple plays to his right that he had rush the ball out, and gunned down the runner in time. Now, I get that he might not have the range that others do, and that those plays should not have to be rushed out of his glove on the Jeter jump-twist-throw, but he has been money doing that lately. He has been getting to everything. He looked good tonight too, minus that last weird play, that is not a normal situation.

 

I was told he was terrible defensively over and over, but my eyes were saying he was pretty good when watch him. So, this prompted me to check the defensive metrics. With SS's with at least 150 at bats, he is 13th in DRS and 4th in UZR/150. Escobar was 22nd and 21st. 

 

The past two years, Nunez has hit RHP's well ( OBP/ISO/wRC+) 321/132/104, while Escobar has faired well against LHP's 304/155/104. They make a decent SS combo, and both can play multiple positions.

[DaveW]

Funny I was kinda thinking the same thing. The way he positioned himself I was wondering where he was going to go with the ball...then he bobbled it, so I guess we will never know

Even if he didn't, he has been in the league 5 years or so now, there is zero excuse for that sort of brain "fart" (for lack of a better word), yes with the bobble the guy prob scores 99 out of a 100 times anyways, but you still have to at least try to throw home in case of something going amiss? Right!!?!? Or at least put u in your pocket and don't randomly throw to first.

[Willihammer]

Not enough bat to PH. Not enough glove to defensive sub. Not enough speed to pinch run.

[DaveW]

Not enough bat to PH. Not enough glove to defensive sub. Not enough speed to pinch run.

aka the story of the 2015 Minnesota Twins bench.

[sane]

"

 

"yes with the bobble the guy prob scores 99 out of a 100 times anyways, but you still have to at least try to throw home in case of something going amiss? Right!!?!? Or at least put u in your pocket and don't randomly throw to first"

It was just a tardy desperation reaction, when Nunez realized that he had lost his chance to get the out at the plate. Nothing he would have done would have saved the game, and Nunez reacted instinctively as infielders/pitchers/catchers do when it is too late to get the lead runner (ie.,on bunts) and threw to 1B. He let his instincts take over after there were no useful options remaining. Holding the ball is no better and looks like a player who is quitting, rather than competing.

[sane]

 

And he might be the dumbest player in the majors. Throwing to first, zero outs, bases loaded, bottom of 10th.

Rebuttals?

He would have thrown home if he had fielded the ball cleanly.

IF NOT, THAT would have been the dumbest .....!

What he did, was simply panic after all was lost! 

There was no thinking going on after the bobble, just an emotional reaction because all was lost.

[DiscGolfer]

So not Nunez, not Escobar, who's your SS then?  Doug Bernier?  Santana should be the SS but he's going through the sophomore slump thing.  Polanco isn't ready yet.  Nick Gordon is still a few years away.  Move Rosario to short and call up the guy hitting 073/152/146 in August (Arcia).  Reyes is on the waiver wire, we could claim him.  So until Santana/Polanco start playing better we'er stuck with the Nunez/Escobar duo.  He did have a nice diving catch in the 6th.  That was a boneheaded play to end the game but I don't think he should be cut for just that play.

[DaveW]

 

So not Nunez, not Escobar, who's your SS then?  Doug Bernier?  Santana...

If only there was a way to obtain other players for a team to play SS, perhaps through some sort of "trade" or "free agency"

 

The Twins were 1.5 games out of the playoffs heading into tonight, there really is no reason why they shouldn't have still be trying to actively fix their holes at this point (SS, C, RP, PH) meanwhile, other than bringing in Jepsen, they haven't done a single thing.

[DiscGolfer]

 

If only there was a way to obtain other players for a team to play SS, perhaps through some sort of "trade" or "free agency"

 

The Twins were 1.5 games out of the playoffs heading into tonight, there really is no reason why they shouldn't have still be trying to actively fix their holes at this point (SS, C, RP, PH) meanwhile, other than bringing in Jepsen, they haven't done a single thing.

So Jimmy Rollins then?  non-waiver deadline is passed so acquiring a player of any value better than the status quo is gonna be pretty difficult.  Sign a free agent? Now?  Who?  Somebody not on a roster will be an improvement?

 

I don't disagree that something needs to be done at SS but right now there isn't much that can be done.  Trade deadline passed and free agency is a few months away

 

So if Nunez isn't a major league SS and you want to cut him who do you replace him with?

[h2oface]

 

So not Nunez, not Escobar, who's your SS then?  

 

Tulo should be the shortstop. No one in the stable or on the team can play the most important position in the infield. Opportunity was in hand and lost. Greatness was right there to be had. Instead, fans and apologists are trained to be satisfied with..... Escobar, I guess.

 

Perkins lost this game more than Nunez. (plus, after the bobble, the game was over, and it saved an error, and got Perkins one out. That is quick and clever thinking and generous to a teammate!)  It was up to Perkins, and they once more gave the ball to him. He was lucky it wasn't a 2 run walk-off homer after the no movement pitch he threw to the rookie on his first pitch in the game. Perkins is cooked for the season. Time for the 60 day DL. He just doesn't keep himself in shape enough to last a whole season. He has been serving batting practice in and since the All-star game, and we are fortunate that it hasn't been even worse, if that can be imagined. Both this year and last, Perkins just doesn't have the conditioning to do what he wants to now, and follow through and get movement on his pitches as the season matures. 

 

How about that job by Casey Fien tonight? You have to be happy about that.

[h2oface]

 

The Twins were 1.5 games out of the playoffs heading into tonight, there really is no reason why they shouldn't have still be trying to actively fix their holes at this point (SS, C, RP, PH) meanwhile, other than bringing in Jepsen, they haven't done a single thing.

 

This team is not ready for the playoffs, even if they do make it and get lucky and win the one game wild card game. No quality starters, bullpen, and closer with dead arm. Hunter is baked and ready for retirement........ Dozier is streaky and inconsistent, as well as Plouffe, and Suzuki is melting, Mauer is a shell of what he once was, and the bench is weak. The time is passed for the fix.  The difference between 1.5 games out of the playoffs and 2.5 games out is pretty insignificant, still. A couple of days ago, they were also 2.5 games out of the central cellar. Time to bring up the youth and look forward to next year.

[sane]

 

The YES broadcast showed a slow replay of it and it looked clear that Nunez thought there were 2 outs.

That is NONSENSE!!

Nunez was playing IN, as he (and every other infielder in baseball) has done with ZERO or ONE OUT and an important runner at third base. He KNEW there weren't two outs or he would have been playing BACK in position to get the out at first base. He also knew that the Twins were playing a FIVE-INFIELDER-DEFENSE, when Escobar replaced Hunter right before that at-bat. To suggest that Nunez  thought there were two outs (instead of NO OUTS) is beyond ridiculous!

[Willihammer]

 

That is NONSENSE!!

Nunez was playing IN, as he (and every other infielder in baseball) has done with ZERO or ONE OUT and an important runner at third base. He KNEW there weren't two outs or he would have been playing BACK in position to get the out at first base. He also knew that the Twins were playing a FIVE-INFIELDER-DEFENSE, when Escobar replaced Hunter right before that at-bat. To suggest that Nunez  thought there were two outs (instead of NO OUTS) is beyond ridiculous!

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v381289383/minnyy-headley-hits-a-walkoff-groundout-in-10th

I know its a moot point by now but does he look like he's going home to you?

Slow-mo at 00:45

[sane]

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v381289383/minnyy-headley-hits-a-walkoff-groundout-in-10th

I know its a moot point by now but does he look like he's going home to you?

Slow-mo at 00:45

That reaction was AFTER the bobble and AFTER it was too late to throw home. There was NO CORRECT play for him at that time, so his play became just reactionary. Any player who is playing UP, knows the play is at home and the PRIORITY baserunner is at third base.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Instead of talking about Dave, perhaps address the point?

 

Can the Twins win with Escobar and/or Nunez as the primary SS?

 

I don't think they can, at least not unless the rest of the lineup is the 27 Yankees.

I think they can win if they shore up other problems. Neither Nunez nor Escobar should be the SS for a good team but you can hide them at the back of the lineup if you have a good rotation, bullpen, or really, any other part of the team...

 

I consider SS a problem for the Twins but I don't think it's their biggest problem, not by a long shot.

[Kwak]

NO!  His shoulder/hip movement convinced me that Nunez was on "auto-pilot"--and was throwing home--but after the muff, "auto-pilot" directs "throw to first".

[sane]

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v381289383/minnyy-headley-hits-a-walkoff-groundout-in-10th

I know its a moot point by now but does he look like he's going home to you?

Slow-mo at 00:45

From postgame interview.."``I didn't mean to throw it to first base,'' Nunez said"

[sane]

 

NO!  His shoulder/hip movement convinced me that Nunez was on "auto-pilot"--and was throwing home--but after the muff, "auto-pilot" directs "throw to first".

Exactly!!!!!

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That reaction was AFTER the bobble and AFTER it was too late to throw home. There was NO CORRECT play for him at that time, so his play became just reactionary. Any player who is playing UP, knows the play is at home and the PRIORITY baserunner is at third base.

Not really "priority baserunner", more like "only baserunner of consequence."

 

I am not sure it's ever "too late to throw home" in that situation, until the runner crosses the plate and the game is over.  What if it was a high fly, deep enough to score the runner but high enough to let an outfielder get back to catch it?  Are you fine with the OF just tossing it in to second base at that point, or putting it into his pocket for a souvenir?

 

Maybe if Nunez throws the ball home like he was supposed to, the runner misjudges and tried to slide around Suzuki and misses the plate on his first pass?  Who knows?  It was unlikely to end well for the Twins at that point, but I don't want Eduardo Nunez to make that determination for himself while there is even a 1% chance remaining for a good outcome.

[Willihammer]

Well, we'll never know for sure. To me it looks like he's going to first the whole way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that little brain fart were the cause of the bobble. Like when you load yourself into your car, pause and subconsciously you know something's not right. And when you start the ignition the car lurches in to the back of the garage because you didn't press the clutch. And when you open the door to examine the damage you see your cup of coffee sitting on the roof of the car. Ah! That was it!

 

We've all done that right?

[sane]

 

"while there is even a 1% chance remaining for a good outcome"

 

IMO there was 0% chance for a good outcome. Nunez's throw to 1B was emotional, not stupid. He did NOT think there were two outs, or he would have been playing BACK for a play at 1B.

The golf analogy is throwing your club(s) into the water hazard AFTER a bad shot.

That wasn't part of your plan.

It did no good.

It wasn't smart.

But your brain wasn't in charge at that time!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Nunez throwing to first wasn't the problem. Booting the ball was the problem. The game was over by the time the ball reached first base.

 

That entire half-inning was painful. Rosario catches that ball if it's not the Yankees.

 

Perkins was bad but he could have gotten out of that inning with a little help from the boys behind him.

[nicksaviking]

Nunez isn't good,  but he never was considered the long term answer.  He's a stopgap in a season in a nosedive so I'm not too concerned.

 

I of the opinion that his decision to throw to first may have been the result of him knowing the run would score and the game was over, however getting the out at first would save him from getting dinged with an error.  Pessimistic? Yes.  Accurate? We will never know.

[Loosey]

The problem is they were playing the Yankees and for whatever reason these things happen to the Twins when they play the Yankees.  The ball wasn't smashed at him, it was was a two hopper hit directly at him.  And somehow he drops it.  Had he made the play its a probably double play and there are 2 outs runners on 2nd and 3rd. 

 

The other problem in Nunez is not a good SS. 

[Platoon]

Instead of talking about Dave, perhaps address the point?

 

Can the Twins win with Escobar and/or Nunez as the primary SS?

 

I don't think they can, at least not unless the rest of the lineup is the 27 Yankees.

NO! Which is why I was a Santana proponent for so long. He is the only one with the ability to play the position at a winning level. If he can or will is another question entirely! Your observation about the '27 Yankees brings up a long held theory of mine. ALL of the Twins could likely play on any MLB roster. It's really not that they are "poor" players. It's that a collection of them all on the same team likely cannot win over a long season. There can be a place in MLB for Nunez, but it is not as a starting SS on a winning team. BTW Chief, did you see the '27 team in person, or do you only know of it from reading about them? :)

[sane]

 

. BTW Chief, did you see the '27 team in person, or do you only know of it from reading about them? :)

Actually, he was US Army Air Corps Chief at that time.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

NO! Which is why I was a Santana proponent for so long. He is the only one with the ability to play the position at a winning level. If he can or will is another question entirely! Your observation about the '27 Yankees brings up a long held theory of mine. ALL of the Twins could likely play on any MLB roster. It's really not that they are "poor" players. It's that a collection of them all on the same team likely cannot win over a long season. There can be a place in MLB for Nunez, but it is not as a starting SS on a winning team. BTW Chief, did you see the '27 team in person, or do you only know of it from reading about them? :)

 

The Twins absolutely can win with Esco as the starting shortstop.  By OPS, he ranks 19th in the majors, which is higher than Gregorious, Andrus, Aybar, Alcides Escobar, Mercer, Hardy, and Castro, all of whom have played shortstop for teams with better records than the Twins.  By UZR/150, he ranks 17th, ahead of Cabrera, Mercer, Castro, Peralta, Tulowitzki, Aybar, Andrus, and Desmond.  By those two metrics, Escobar is flat-out better than Mercer, Castro, Aybar, and Andrus.  The notion Esco can't be our starting shortstop if we want to win is ridiculous.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

That was the dumbest play I have seen in my life.

It wasn't a dumb play. He made a error. As soon as he picked up the ball it was clear to everyone watching that it was too late to get the runner at home, so he flipped the ball to first. It meant nothing. Nothing.

 

It was an error at the worst possible time, on a ball most high school players would have caught easily, and it disgusted me.

[USAFChief]

 

 BTW Chief, did you see the '27 team in person, or do you only know of it from reading about them? :)

yes.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

The problem is they were playing the Yankees and for whatever reason these things happen to the Twins when they play the Yankees.  The ball wasn't smashed at him, it was was a two hopper hit directly at him.  And somehow he drops it.  Had he made the play its a probably double play and there are 2 outs runners on 2nd and 3rd. 

 

The other problem in Nunez is not a good SS. 

I think you forgot the situation. There were no outs. He had to throw home. But, after he bobbled the ball, it was too later. Then I threw up.