Nunez Activated, Vargas Optioned

[Circus Boy]

 

They probably followed the time-honored tradition since the club's inception: ask Sid what to do.

 

Hey, now, don't dis my good personal friend Sid.

[stringer bell]

After some thought on the matter, I think Vargas has to show that he is a real offensive threat.  With the obvious troubles in the field with Escobar/Arcia/Hunter playing the corners and the less than great production from Vargas, it kind of figures that he would be sent down. 

 

Given the roster, Vargas is at best an occasional first baseman.  His value is hitting and he needs to hit a lot to be a full-time DH.  A full-time DH has to really hit and so far Vargas hasn't done that.

 

So, I'm now believing that Vargas has to do more than tune up his swing.  He needs to force his way back in the lineup.   

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Hey, now, don't dis my good personal friend Sid.

Sid's a great guy, but you'd be better off trusting me

[Madre Dos]

Kennys always does better when Rosie is in the line up. I don't know why, but I believe it was the same when they were in Elizabethton (along with Miguel) in 2011. That was a really BUSY house that summer.

 

I had to put a note on the door to keep the autograph seekers away. Autographs at work, Rest at home

[Willihammer]

 

Kennys always does better when Rosie is in the line up. I don't know why, but I believe it was the same when they were in Elizabethton (along with Miguel) in 2011. That was a really BUSY house that summer.

I had to put a note on the door to keep the autograph seekers away. Autographs at work, Rest at home

Obnoxious

[blairpaul715]

Well, i was also flabbergasted that Nunez came back and Bernier stayed........but I was not happy that Vargas was not getting the AB's.........so even tho i would rather have him hitting at the MLB level, if he is only going to play a day or 2 a week, i would rather him stay sharp at AAA, and also force their hand.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

Why? Weren't you harping about Boyer and Thompson? (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Look how they turned out. I personally think that this front office knows what they are doing, especially Terry Ryan. The move may seem odd, but I think that they want Vargas to actually know how to field his position, it seems like he is almost immobile at times, and we need interchangeable parts.

I don't mind sending Vargas down by the FO, but Boyer and Thompson as a defense is not needed. Both have terrible underlying numbers the geek stat era predictors hate them both so far. Smoke and mirrors and small sample sizes. I like their luck so far, but betting on them both to implode to their true selves soon. Hope not, but it is the likely scenario. Many terrible relievers can have decent era's through good luck in small samples, just like dominant relievers can pitch great with a bad era due to a game or two of bad luck.

[Blackjack]

 

I didn't see one post upthread that suggested the world was coming to an end- just that a head-scratching move that offers no obviously evidentiary immediate benefit to a team currently in the wild card hunt.  And to be plain and simply accurate, he' already mashing the ball.  Perhaps there will soon come a time to send Vargas down for more seasoning, based on what is known publicly, this was not the week to do so.

Ten pages of comments, some people seem to think the world is coming to an end because a part-time DH got sent to AAA. 

 

I get it, he's a young player, he should be playing but a month in AAA won't hurt him.  Hopefully he'll mash and force the Twins hand to get him back up sooner. And hopefully he'll realize that being in the majors is more fun than riding buses in AAA and will do whatever it takes to stay up.

 

Arcia is another player who needs that message sent to him.  Put in the work to be at least average defensively and stop swinging for the fences all the time.

[USAFChief]

Ten pages of comments, some people seem to think the world is coming to an end because a part-time DH got sent to AAA. 

 

I get it, he's a young player, he should be playing but a month in AAA won't hurt him.  Hopefully he'll mash and force the Twins hand to get him back up sooner. And hopefully he'll realize that being in the majors is more fun than riding buses in AAA and will do whatever it takes to stay up.

 

Arcia is another player who needs that message sent to him.  Put in the work to be at least average defensively and stop swinging for the fences all the time.

Some time in AAA might or might not help Vargas, but the point is, what is most helpful to the 2015 Twins?

 

For the record, while your point might be valid, they mostly ride airplanes in AAA.

[spinowner]

 

Some time in AAA might or might not help Vargas, but the point is, what is most helpful to the 2015 Twins?

Just reinforcing that the two of us have to agree to disagree on this. The point is, what is most helpful to further the development of young prospects?

[jokin]

 

Ten pages of comments, some people seem to think the world is coming to an end because a part-time DH got sent to AAA. 

 

I get it, he's a young player, he should be playing but a month in AAA won't hurt him.  Hopefully he'll mash and force the Twins hand to get him back up sooner. And hopefully he'll realize that being in the majors is more fun than riding buses in AAA and will do whatever it takes to stay up.

 

Arcia is another player who needs that message sent to him.  Put in the work to be at least average defensively and stop swinging for the fences all the time.

You've repeated your statement, and I still haven't seen anyone post here who thinks the world is coming to an end.  Just a lot of commentary on a bad short-term decision that was made on behalf of a team that has actually shown pretenses to winning- in which case, maximizing the chances for winning every possible game becomes more paramount- especially when the bench is currently quite short of productive bats- and the fact that there is often at least one offensive liability in the starting lineup that might require a competent PH.

 

Regarding Arcia, on this we agree, he's responded well to minor league "messages" sent his way in the past.  But having both Arcia and Vargas down at the same time with a still-rusty Nunez and Robinson, and the hapless Hermann and Bernier, as your only viable bench offense was, and is, still a short-term blunder.

 

There's a time and a place to send a message, this wasn't the right timing to message Vargas.

[Shane Wahl]

Probably been said already, but:

Vargas *was* finding his groove! What a strange time to send him down *just* as the dude started hitting!

 

I understand that love affair Molitor has with Rosario, but man . . . this isn't going to be very pretty. Eddie probably needed a bit of time at AA then AAA before a July or so arrival.

 

Bernier on a roster is embarrassing, clearly.

 

There is basically no way that I would have thought Vargas to AAA wouldn't imply, directly, Pinto to the Twins. That weird.

[jokin]

 

Probably been said already, but:

Vargas *was* finding his groove! What a strange time to send him down *just* as the dude started hitting!

 

I understand that love affair Molitor has with Rosario, but man . . . this isn't going to be very pretty. Eddie probably needed a bit of time at AA then AAA before a July or so arrival.

 

Bernier on a roster is embarrassing, clearly.

 

There is basically no way that I would have thought Vargas to AAA wouldn't imply, directly, Pinto to the Twins. That weird.

 

You've tuckpointed the germane issues quite nicely, and added in some important "mortar" work on how the Rosario situation might play out.  All managers play favorites to some degree, Gardy did, and now we are seeing who one of Molitor's pets is. I was all in favor of pushing Rosario to AAA despite the gap in his resume,  I can't recall if he was on your "push list" or not?  But yeah, the longer his MLB debut continues, the more he's going to be exposed as a guy who a year ago to the day was still trying to get comfortable with AA pitching, there's a Twins prospect OF who clearly will benefit on his inevitable return to Rochester, as might also be the case of Oswaldo, perhaps on a rehab stint.  In the case of Vargas, he has things to refine, but now was not the time for a trip to AAA.

 

For a more humorous take on what the might have been the Twin FO thought-process on this matter, check this out.

 

 

[Blackjack]

 

You've repeated your statement, and I still haven't seen anyone post here who thinks the world is coming to an end.  Just a lot of commentary on a bad short-term decision

 

.

 

a lot of commentary on a bad short-term decision = people thinking the world is coming to the end.

 

Phrase it anyway you want it. Posters are making a big hooha about sending Vargas down, which in the long run won't affect the Twins season, it may actually help them, only time will tell, it won't hurt Vargas, and may actually help him. 

[Craig Arko]

World coming to an end?

 

No, this is more 'Much Ado about not a whole heck of a lot.' Think of it as America's other pastime.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't get why people come into threads to say the thread is not worth discussing........this is a thread about the Vargas decision, wouldn't it make sense to discuss the Vargas decision, even if it is "much ado about nothing" or whatever else people want to discuss?

 

Let's hope the speculation that there is another move coming soon is true.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

But what is clear--there isn't room for everyone.

That's our hope for the future, but that clearly isn't the case in the present.  I generally like our team, but the Twins don't have nine guys (excluding Vargas) that need to be locked in the lineup virtually everyday.

 

Average week has 6 games, here is a generic map of how you could equitably distribute the starts:

 

Here is what that would mean for starts per week, and extrapolated to a full season:

 

When Arcia comes back, he can take the place of Rosario or Vargas, depending on who is performing worse.

 

Interleague is only 10 games, 6 of them in the last week of June, so that's hardly a hurdle to achieving this distribution.

 

Who is going to be taking these starts that Vargas could be getting in MLB?  It's going to be Mauer going from a 135 to 162 game/season pace, and indirectly, it's going to be scattered starts for Nunez, Robinson, and maybe even Bernier.

 

(Obviously Plouffe, Dozier, and Hicks will get a few days off too, but probably not scheduled weekly, and those starts can go to Escobar and Rosario too if so desired.)

[stringer bell]

DHs don't have much value.  To be a full-time DH even as offense has cooled in the majors, you need to be north of an .800 OPS.  Vargas isn't hitting at the standard and because of that, he got sent to AAA.  I'll say it again--to stay in the league Vargas will really need to hit a lot.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

DHs don't have much value.  To be a full-time DH even as offense has cooled in the majors, you need to be north of an .800 OPS.  Vargas isn't hitting at the standard and because of that, he got sent to AAA.  I'll say it again--to stay in the league Vargas will really need to hit a lot.

Vargas has exceeded that standard since April 29, the same date the Escobar began hitting at an acceptable MLB standard.

 

What's the plan to the DH spot in the meantime?  Various players I am sure, but indirectly it's going to be Nunez, Robinson, and maybe Bernier getting scattered starts, and "iron man" Mauer on the Lou Gehrig playing time plan.  I fail to see how that's better than seeing if Vargas' recent trends can hold.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If Pinto comes up for Friday, that is better, but it still feels a little too "cute" to bench and then demote a guy who's bat has been heating up like Vargas, for comparable guy who's just going to have to get re-acclimated to MLB pitching.  (And if they're willing to reduce Suzuki's playing time and demote Herrmann, they could fit Pinto into my above distribution without demoting Vargas.)

 

Plus, it appears they will be going into their two no-DH games this week, games where they will almost certainly use at least one if not multiple pinch hitters, with the following bench: Robinson, Nunez, Bernier, Herrmann.  Extra weird "benefit" of a potential Vargas-to-Pinto transition...

[kab21]

 

DHs don't have much value.  To be a full-time DH even as offense has cooled in the majors, you need to be north of an .800 OPS.  Vargas isn't hitting at the standard and because of that, he got sent to AAA.  I'll say it again--to stay in the league Vargas will really need to hit a lot.

Actually to be a full time DH on the Twins he needs to hit a fair amount better than whatever career utility player is DHing.  I'm not particularly upset that Vargas was sent down.  I'm very frustrated that we are going to have utility IF'ers playing DH and/or RF/LF.  Again.  Every #$%^#$$# year.

[Willihammer]

The full-time DH is underrated IMO. A lot of guys can't hit unless they're in the field. The White Sox make this mistake every 4 years when they bring in some bruiser from the NL who is used to playing everyday and then slot him at DH. It's not always that easy.

[dxpavelka]

 

As I've said in past threads I think the goal for the Twins organization for the 2015 season should be to prepare their best young prospects as well as possible to contend in 2016 and beyond. All else is secondary in importance. I'm guessing they feel that Vargas will improve as a player more quickly in AAA than in the majors, and if that's the case then that's where he needs to be. If the Twins lose a couple more games this year as a result, so what? Of all the statistics to consider, the least important statistic is the major league team's 2015 W-L record.

In spite of my reservations about this move, if you could convince me that this was the reason it was made, I'd sign off on it.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm guessing they feel that Vargas will improve as a player more quickly in AAA than in the majors, and if that's the case then that's where he needs to be.

But the biggest reason he might improve more quickly in AAA than in the majors is because Molitor had been choosing to bench him in the majors the previous week.  Why?

[Otto von Ballpark]

April 25th was Vargas' season OPS low point, and he was benched for Nunez at DH the next 3 games.  Makes sense, he was struggling and Nunez was swinging well.

 

Then Nunez goes on the DL and Vargas comes back to the lineup, and he rips off a .980 OPS over the next 2 weeks, with 7 multi-hit games in just 10 starts (and a manageable 20% K rate).

 

Then Escobar and Santana each get DH nods over Vargas last week, and he is promptly demoted when Nunez comes off the DL.

 

It's like they decided a few weeks ago that Vargas wasn't their guy, but let him hang on while Nunez was on the shelf...

[nicksaviking]

The Twins have so many Of and corner If options at AA and beyond, I actually think it would be wise not to have a full-time DH.  They probably think so too.

 

Still, he doesn't appear to be demoted for a Of or corner IF prospect but a utility infielder, and if getting rid of a full-time DH was always going to be the plan, Vargas probably shouldn't have been part of the equation for a month and a half simply to demote him when things got sticky.

 

With all those guys at AA, AAA and the youngsters at the MLB level, I think we're going to see a lot of frustrating decisions like this.  I know the front office wants to open all of their presents, even if they'll hardly ever play with some, but I think it would be wise to start looking for some trade opportunities or this team is going to have a ton of young guys who may not get a fair look at MLB playing time.  Those guys turn into a wasted asset.

[Kwak]

 

That's our hope for the future, but that clearly isn't the case in the present.  I generally like our team, but the Twins don't have nine guys (excluding Vargas) that need to be locked in the lineup virtually everyday.

 

Average week has 6 games, here is a generic map of how you could equitably distribute the starts:

weekly-starts.png

 

Here is what that would mean for starts per week, and extrapolated to a full season:

totals2.png

 

When Arcia comes back, he can take the place of Rosario or Vargas, depending on who is performing worse.

 

Interleague is only 10 games, 6 of them in the last week of June, so that's hardly a hurdle to achieving this distribution.

 

Who is going to be taking these starts that Vargas could be getting in MLB?  It's going to be Mauer going from a 135 to 162 game/season pace, and indirectly, it's going to be scattered starts for Nunez, Robinson, and maybe even Bernier.

 

(Obviously Plouffe, Dozier, and Hicks will get a few days off too, but probably not scheduled weekly, and those starts can go to Escobar and Rosario too if so desired.)

You are GUILTY of selectively misquoting--"...after [sano and Buxton] are promoted...".  That's the real logjam.

 

However, find a rotation to squeeze players in to a rotation ("Iz zat u Gardy?") is fine for Basketball, or any other sport that permits exit and reentry--but for baseball--just NO.  Consistency of playing time correlates with consistency of good performance.  

[Hrbowski]

 

I don't mind sending Vargas down by the FO, but Boyer and Thompson as a defense is not needed. Both have terrible underlying numbers the geek stat era predictors hate them both so far.

Geek stat era predictors are totally inaccurate, even the people who calculate those stats have admitted to it, but that should be for another thread.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You are GUILTY of selectively misquoting--"...after [sano and Buxton] are promoted...". That's the real logjam.

 

However, find a rotation to squeeze players in to a rotation ("Iz zat u Gardy?") is fine for Basketball, or any other sport that permits exit and reentry--but for baseball--just NO. Consistency of playing time correlates with consistency of good performance.

Sorry, didn't mean to misquote. It was a legit misread, that is all.

 

Lineup rotations exist, whether you want to ackowledge them or not. Obviously they are not set in stone, and can shift for good performance, matchups, injuries, etc.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Geek stat era predictors are totally inaccurate, even the people who calculate those stats have admitted to it, but that should be for another thread.

 

Um false, they are better predictors than ERA itself for the rest of the current season. This is not even a point of debate anymore.