Outside ideas and people

[Mike Sixel]

Pretty much every decision on coaching has gone down the "are the Twins really changing anything at all" path, or the "are the Twins bringing in enough new ideas and change" path........

 

Some thoughts from me.....

 

1. Outside voices and new ideas do matter in business. Lack of them leads to all sorts of problems that have been documented for decades.

 

2. One data point does not a trend make. Lots of decisions that might be good on their own, could be bad as a trend.

 

3. I have no idea if the hires are good at their jobs.

 

4. They have barely cleaned house at all. I'm not sure why a fan should feel like the team realizes it needs new ideas, and new leaders.

 

5. As a fan, it feels like last year's reunion tour, or maybe a merry go round. The chairs might be different, but the faces are the same.

 

6. I don't expect executives to hire strangers all that often, but the best ones hire people that are different than them, and fill in holes in their abilities. They also take chances on people they don't know super well. The worst surround themselves with yes men and people that think like them. I don't know what is happening here, frankly.

 

7. I think Glynn could maybe be considered an outside voice, and certainly the pitching coach. But that's not much change for a team that is bad, very bad, and has been for four years.

 

I'm curious:

 

a: does it matter to you at all if the Twins bring in new ways of thinking and people from the outside?

b: do you think they have?

c: rally monkey......

[Seth Stohs]

There are lot of very good, private, family-run businesses that have had a lot of success and lasted decade after decade, maybe even a century. Sometimes those businesses develop a strong business plan and philosophy and despite new generations of ownership and managers and workers, they continue to be successful. Sure, there will be recessions from time to time, but that doesn't (at least it doesn't have to) say that the model is what's broken. Sure, you can bring in some new thoughts from time to time, and those people will have some new and different philosophies and ideas that mesh with the other ideas. But the overriding principals of the company remain constant. Sure, we got from paper to fax to e-mail, we advance and we try things, but the companies can be successful in the long run still.

 

I get it, Mike, (some) want to blow it up and start it from scratch, but that doesn't always work either.

[Steven Buhr]

a. yes

b. yes

 

Did anyone really think EVERY critical position would be filled by someone with absolutely zero connection to the Twins over the past 50 years? Really? Is that what it would take to make people happy?

 

Not me.

 

The offense hasn't sucked. The pitching has.

 

If there's one area that I felt genuinely needed outside ideas, it was in the area of pitching. The new pitching coach might not have been able to spell TWINS a month ago, much less have a history with the organization.

 

The bullpen coach pitched for the team 10 years ago. Big whoop. Do we really think he has NO ideas other than what he learned while the Twins' closer?

 

The 3B/inf coach spent most of his professional life outside the Twins organization. I'm guessing he has a few thoughts garnered from outside. Im really not sure what dynamic new ideas are out there in other organizations for how to coach picking up ground balls and throwing them to first base or how to tell a runner to stop or go at 3B.

 

Pitching is the one area that I felt it was important to get some fresh ideas. So, yeah, I'm pleased TR and Molitor agreed.

 

I'm surprised Joe Vavra was named the bench coach, but I really don't care.

[jokin]

Pretty much every decision on coaching has gone down the "are the Twins really changing anything at all" path, or the "are the Twins bringing in enough new ideas and change" path........

 

Some thoughts from me.....

 

1. Outside voices and new ideas do matter in business. Lack of them leads to all sorts of problems that have been documented for decades.

 

2. One data point does not a trend make. Lots of decisions that might be good on their own, could be bad as a trend.

 

3. I have no idea if the hires are good at their jobs.

 

4. They have barely cleaned house at all. I'm not sure why a fan should feel like the team realizes it needs new ideas, and new leaders.

 

5. As a fan, it feels like last year's reunion tour, or maybe a merry go round. The chairs might be different, but the faces are the same.

 

6. I don't expect executives to hire strangers all that often, but the best ones hire people that are different than them, and fill in holes in their abilities. They also take chances on people they don't know super well. The worst surround themselves with yes men and people that think like them. I don't know what is happening here, frankly.

 

7. I think Glynn could maybe be considered an outside voice, and certainly the pitching coach. But that's not much change for a team that is bad, very bad, and has been for four years.

 

I'm curious:

 

a: does it matter to you at all if the Twins bring in new ways of thinking and people from the outside?

b: do you think they have?

c: rally monkey......

 

a) Definitely

Definitely not

c) Thank goodness for baby steps.... at least we now have two outside voices from the Rays now in the mix, and in a position to express themselves (plus Eddie, to a much lesser extent), please tell me that Vavra isn't now in a position to overrule them.

[Squirrel]

I know that there are many who wanted everyone to come from the outside, but that much change was never going to happen.  And, quite frankly, I'm not sure a complete upset and remake is ever a good idea.  There are changes here, but whether it is enough only time will tell. 

[old nurse]

Molitor is a far different person than Gardenhire. If he looks at baseball a different way than Gardenhire you have your change. You do not know what thoughts Gardenhire ignored, or what he took in from others You do not know the same for Molitor.

New ways of thinking is a nebulous term. What do people expect to happen?  There is a new pitching coach so that leaves offense and defense. If there were different people running the team Parmelee would turn into an 800 OPS sort of player and play defense? If there were different people running the team Parmelee would turn into an 800 OPS sort of player he was at AA and play stellar defense? Those that complain of the no outside voices, tell me where the staff failed Parmellee to not be the player he was in the minors.

[Steven Buhr]

I keep coming back to arguably THE most important coaching position being a total outsider that neither the manager nor GM has ever worked with. How many new managers welcome that kind of situation, I wonder?

 

I get the, "successful organizations welcome new ideas," mantra. How many successful organizations insist on EVERY open management position having no ties whatsoever to the orgainzation... ever?

 

I'm not surprised that so many people focused on Vavra to make the case that the Twins aren't looking outside. But when the same announcement also included Allen, with no ties to the Twins, as the coach with the steepest uphill challenge ahead of him, I guess I would have thought that warranted a bit more than an offhanded acknowledgment by so many.

[jokin]

 

I'm not surprised that so many people focused on Vavra to make the case that the Twins aren't looking outside. But when the same announcement also included Allen, with no ties to the Twins, as the coach with the steepest uphill challenge ahead of him, I guess I would have thought that warranted a bit more than an offhanded acknowledgment by so many.

 

Allen got the highest endorsement possible from Terry Ryan:

 

 

“I’ve talked to lot of people in that International League scene, and it doesn’t take you very long to find people familiar with his work,” Ryan said. “To a man, all you get are these superlatives. I was looking for a little bit more. I was looking for somebody to maybe not agree with all that stuff, but they all said, ‘This guy is a legitimate major league pitching coach that eventually is going to get an opportunity.’ Here is his opportunity. I’m glad we’re going to give it to him.”

 

He didn't include Glynn's recommendation, specifically, but I'm sure Glynn was a factor.

[clone52]

Pretty much every decision on coaching has gone down the "are the Twins really changing anything at all" path, or the "are the Twins bringing in enough new ideas and change" path........

 

Some thoughts from me.....

 

1. Outside voices and new ideas do matter in business. Lack of them leads to all sorts of problems that have been documented for decades.

 

2. One data point does not a trend make. Lots of decisions that might be good on their own, could be bad as a trend.

 

3. I have no idea if the hires are good at their jobs.

 

4. They have barely cleaned house at all. I'm not sure why a fan should feel like the team realizes it needs new ideas, and new leaders.

 

5. As a fan, it feels like last year's reunion tour, or maybe a merry go round. The chairs might be different, but the faces are the same.

 

6. I don't expect executives to hire strangers all that often, but the best ones hire people that are different than them, and fill in holes in their abilities. They also take chances on people they don't know super well. The worst surround themselves with yes men and people that think like them. I don't know what is happening here, frankly.

 

7. I think Glynn could maybe be considered an outside voice, and certainly the pitching coach. But that's not much change for a team that is bad, very bad, and has been for four years.

 

I'm curious:

 

a: does it matter to you at all if the Twins bring in new ways of thinking and people from the outside?

b: do you think they have?

c: rally monkey......

 

Pitching is where they needed the change.  Hitting has been pretty darn good, so retaining Brunansky and maybe even Vavra makes a lot of sense.  They got a new pitching coach.  They got a bullpen coach (who was a Twins player, but never a Twins coach).  Gene Glynn is a fresh face too.  He has never been with the Twins major league staff and has only been with the minor league staff a short time.

 

Honestly, it might have been a dumb move to not retain Brunansky as hitting coach.

[Mike Sixel]

Who here asked for every voice to be new?

[Brandon]

a. yes

b. yes

 

Did anyone really think EVERY critical position would be filled by someone with absolutely zero connection to the Twins over the past 50 years? Really? Is that what it would take to make people happy?

 

Not me.

 

The offense hasn't sucked. The pitching has.

 

If there's one area that I felt genuinely needed outside ideas, it was in the area of pitching. The new pitching coach might not have been able to spell TWINS a month ago, much less have a history with the organization.

 

The bullpen coach pitched for the team 10 years ago. Big whoop. Do we really think he has NO ideas other than what he learned while the Twins' closer?

 

The 3B/inf coach spent most of his professional life outside the Twins organization. I'm guessing he has a few thoughts garnered from outside. Im really not sure what dynamic new ideas are out there in other organizations for how to coach picking up ground balls and throwing them to first base or how to tell a runner to stop or go at 3B.

 

Pitching is the one area that I felt it was important to get some fresh ideas. So, yeah, I'm pleased TR and Molitor agreed.

 

I'm surprised Joe Vavra was named the bench coach, but I really don't care.

 

I second this.  word for word.

[JB_Iowa]

I'm generally happy with the hires but overall there is still a stale feel.

 

I hope that goes away in Spring Training.

[jokin]

Who here asked for every voice to be new?

 

No one?

[Steven Buhr]

My mother (and pretty much every moderator in TD) told me that when I can no longer say something nice, I should stop talking.

 

That said, I believe my participation in this thread is complete

[Squirrel]

Pitching is the one area that I felt it was important to get some fresh ideas. So, yeah, I'm pleased TR and Molitor agreed.

 

 

I think this hits on the crux of it for me.  We got the biggest change in the area that needed it the most.  While there are others who have had their affiliation with the Twins to varying degrees, I'm okay with the mix.  While it may not be different in every way some wanted it, the mix is different.  There may be some of the same voices, but they won't be singing the same part and will be harmonizing differently.  I'm hopeful for a pleasant result, but as I've also said above and elsewhere, time will tell.  While I was perhaps hoping for something a bit 'more different,' I'm not disappointed, either.  Vavra's appointment to bench coach was a bit of a surprise, but again, it's a different role and maybe one he is well suited to.  There is still a 1st base coach to appoint, yes? 

[Platoon]

To me it's more about general philosophy. Will Allen emphasize the need for higher strike out rates? Will he accept that those types of pitchers walk more, but can get out of a jam, self inflicted or otherwise. Will Molitor address the fact that some of the pitching problems were a combination of two diametric opposite policies. Pitch to contact with an outfield filled with out of position infielders, large sluggers, and on too many occasions overvalued utility men?

While the offense has not been bad, will he try and eliminate taking fastballs down the middle, while trying to "work the count"? I know the hitting coach is the hitting coach. But to some extent, he must reflect the managers philosophy, or he would not be there long.

Will lackadaisical play cost you a day on the bench until you get it? I am not talking errors here, I am talking throwing to the wrong base, missing cutoff men, or running into idiotic outs.

Answers to those questions, many which seemed to lack import to the previous regime will go a long way in determining the makeup of next years roster, and by extension next years record.

[Mike Sixel]

I do agree with those saying the pitching needed the most change. I think the lack of general execution of "the small things" really needs to be addressed also. I am hopeful on that front. I really started this to get this out of every other thread, and for people to state their thoughts on the topic. I don't expect anyone to change their mind here. I continue to hope for respect in the thread though.

[TheLeviathan]

Who here asked for every voice to be new?

 

That's fine, but what percentage of this needed to change for you to be satisfied then?  If Molitor's work with Vavra impressed him enough to keep him on board, then that should be his decision.  

 

I think many of us wanted another outside voice at bench coach, but at this point I'm pretty comfortable with things.  Gardy is gone and a more modern manager is in his place along with a fresh face at pitching coach from an organization with a lot to like.   Sounds reasonable to me.

[Thrylos]

Clearly the biggest issue and the root of the problem is the front office.  If the top executive of the team is a PR guy and not a baseball man and if the Front office has been pretty much unchanged the last 20 years despite the lack of fielding a competitive team against good teams, how can one expect any improvement?

 

They should had hired a baseball person from the outside with a pedigree of success to run the operations, hire the front office and field personnel.  The turn around that the Rangers showed with Ryan (the good one) on the helm should had been the model.

 

But they blew it.  Maybe Pohlad should sell if he does not care about winning.

[Seth Stohs]

I'm with SDBuhr on this one. Here's a quick look, adn maybe in doing this others will agree or disagree with my assessment on each:

 

Molitor: Mostly is from within the organization since he has been a player, a coach, a minor league instructor (the majority of the time), and then a bench coach most recently. Generally, everyone says that his way of thinking is very different, very educated.

 

Vavra: Certainly is from within the organization. He's been around for about 15 years. Before that, he was in the Dodgers system. He's internal, but again, very intelligent and thinks outside the box.

 

Glynn: 3B coach. He's got 30+ years in professional baseball, only the last three in the Twins system. He's been a big league coach in 4 other organizations and been a scout in our favorite system, the Rays. 

 

Hernandez: Yup, he's an inside guy.

 

Brunansky: Sure, he's inside, but also did a great job.  I think we'd all agree.

 

Allen: Completely outside the organization. 

 

Guardado: I don't know. Played for the organization a decade ago... no coaching experience, but will light fires, which I believe commenters here have been wanting. He also spent time in other organizations since then, playing. 

 

All touted for their intelligence, relationships, rapport with players, ability to get the best out of people, and baseball knowledge and plenty of time spent in the big leagues.

 

There have been changes, but more important to me, they've got smart baseball people and guys who fill key roles that we've been looking too, they're not old-school retreads, they're guys willing to use all means to make a team better. 

[Craig Arko]

I think I'll give them a chance to work together for a bit before drawing any conclusions. Or in the immortal words of Treebeard "Don't be hasty."

[Monkeypaws]

As many have said, it depends entirely on the quality of the original ideas; losing Gardy and Anderson will be a big enough change. If you are questioning guys like Guardado and Glynn, or even Molitor being added to the staff, you are over-thinking this.

[brvama]

New voices don't always require strange faces.

 

In my experience, people genereally follow the company line to remain employed while often differing on the way things are done. So, do we know for sure, that all of the coaches will spout the same line as when Gardy was in charge? The first and biggest change is Molitor - it will be upon him to right the ship. For example, the new CEO we hired kept the same senior management and has them following his vision with entusiasm and efficiency. It can be done.

 

I totally agree with Seth's take on the "freshness" of the coaches hired. It really boils down to one's perspective. I look at Molitor as a change in direction. And I also believe that all the hires will bring strengths AND new approaches to this team that Molitor likes.

 

Again, new ideas can come from familar faces as well as strange ones.

[PseudoSABR]

1. It's true that outside voices can matter.  But if outside voices essentially believe in Gardyball, and perhaps was a Mets minor leaguer, that outside voice doesn't matter.  I agree if all the hires had been from within the organization, there'd be a real fear of insularity.  The Twins hire of Neil Allen, among others, puts to bed that fear in two ways 1) that he has ZERO connection to the Twins and 2) that he's from AAA, hopefully demonstrating a move away from risk-aversion.  It's odd that you don't mention Allen in your post.  

 

2.  The thing I like about the hires is that there seems to be no one test for the coaches to pass. They are unrelated to one another in significant ways. I like that.

 

3.  I'm sure these people are good at their jobs, the question is were they the best possible hires that were avialable. And who the heck knows that at this point.

 

4.  I think this is the crux of your argument, really.  Cleaninghouse rarely makes sense for any institution.  You don't just give up the talent you already have in-house, especially if they have good, unique ideas.  Gardyball or the Twins Way isn't some infectious disease that every Twins-connected person suffers from.  Just because someone is associated with the Twins, doesn't preclude them from having ideas totally opposing what the Twins have done.  Rather the idea of cleaning house seems to me to be to punish or to save costs and efforts.  Cleaning house would be rash, especially if there's talented and unique personnel already in the dugout.  

 

5. Gardy and Andy and Ulger are gone.  Really that's the regime that's been around.  Retaining Varva and Brunansky adds continuity and probably will help facilitate large endeavors like Spring Training (Varva's duties evidently).   Brunasky didn't deserve to be fired.   Everyday Eddie has never coached, may be bilingual, and sat in the bullpen far away from Gardy during his playing days.  Gardyball is dead. 

 

6. Neil Allen says hi.

 

7. Dude, you totally minimize this.  Why not seriously address how both Allen and Glynn have spent all their career away from the major league club.  Hernandez, which was another suprising, outside the box hire, even if he was from within the organization, he's very far removed from the major league club.   

 

I think the voices you are looking for are already on the team.  Good organizations foster the talent they have and steal the talent they can from others.  There's plenty of that going on.   Continuity can be a good thing, don't hate. 

[cmb0252]

I'm generally happy with the hires but overall there is still a stale feel.

 

I hope that goes away in Spring Training.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't dislike the hires but it just feels like the team is going through the motions.

 

Hire from within.

Ryan says we won't make a big splash in FA because of money.

President blames decreasing payroll on fan attendance.

Ownership comes out and says they haven't given Ryan a budget and they want to win.

Focus on over the hill former twins player with good leadership or reclamation projects.

Talk about building from within while not promoting prospects.

Don't make any major trades at the trade deadline.

Lose 90+ games.

 

I don't dislike the hirings but after 4 horrid years I just wanted something to get excited about. I don't believe anyone thinks the excitement is going to come from FA. These hirings might be the right call but can you really blame fans for being disappointed in how vanilla they are? Especially with the talk about bringing the 39 year old Hunter in for leadership?

[Seth Stohs]

I don't dislike the hirings but after 4 horrid years I just wanted something to get excited about. 

 

All points fair. However...

 

Who on the coaching staff would that have been? Maddon was going to Chicago. So, who? Torre? Larussa? Leo Mazzone?

[Mike Sixel]

That is a different question. ...will this matter to fans before the season at all for excitement and tickets?

[Linus]

That is a different question. ...will this matter to fans before the season at all for excitement and tickets?

Not a bit. It will all boil down to winning (90%) and any young exciting players (10%) that make the team or all called up

[Richie the Rally Goat]

A. It matters

B. Nope

C. Manager, coaches, it's just lipstick on the hog. Until upper management (Ryan, St Peter) changes, the Twins will be fundamentally the same. I agree pitching is the glaring need, but it goes much deeper. The game has evolved but the organization has not.

I did not expect a wholesale change with the same management. I'm not even certain that's what I want, but evolution has been required over the last decade and now is the time for catch up.

[markos]

I think adding outside voices - particularly people who are currently coaching on major league staffs - is very important, and I think the Twins missed a great opportunity to improve the organization. In particular, I don't think the this collection of coaches will challenge the front office and make it better.

 

In my perfect world, they would have hired someone completely outside the organization - hypothetical example, Ray's bench coach Dave Martinez. That kind of hire could potentially spur change and growth throughout the organization. As examples, any or all of the following things could happen:

1) To the stat guys, he could request the specific stats or analytics that he used and found useful.

2) To the scouting guys, he could ask for scouting report information that they found useful.

3) To the trainers, he could recommend training programs, or maybe even good training staff to poach.

4) To Terry Ryan, he may provide the recommendations (and familiarity) necessary to poach good scouts, analysts, etc from the other team's front office.

 

Allen and Glynn may provide a small potential for growth, but they have two limitations for effecting change: first, their suggestions/requests will not have the weight as coming from the manager; second, they were AAA coaches, not MLB, and quite possibly were only privy to a subset of what the other organizations were doing a the big league level.  

 

Overall, I think Molitor and the staff he has collected is a definite step in the right direction, and I am fairly confident it will be better than the status quo. However, I think it could have been a lot better, which is why I'm still disappointed.