Pinto or Gardy

[SheboyganBrats]

I'm a little confused about the topic.  I thought the topic had to do with why Pinto was not brought into Friday's game to catch the 10th inning.  In that game, in the bottom of the ninth, Suzuki had doubled with one out, and Nunez was brought in to pinch run.  Nunez scored on Arcia's single to tie the game.  Fryer was brought in as a defensive replacement to catch in the top of the 10th and made a nice block on a pitch in the dirt with a man on first base.  I'm not saying that Pinto wouldn't have made that play, but I'm not sure I can say that Gardy mishandled his players in that game, particularly since he still had Pinto available as a pinch hitter if they needed him.  As it turned out, the Twins won the game in the bottom of the 10th and Pinto did not pinch hit.   

 

If the topic is "Why isn't Pinto starting more games at catcher?", I'd agree that he should be catching more.

[Mike Sixel]

If it is not clear this is about Gardy and Pinto overall, that is my fault.

 

For those saying Gardy is doing nothing wring, are you suggesting they keep Punto, and never play him, or trade him? That was the question.

[gunnarthor]

If it is not clear this is about Gardy and Pinto overall, that is my fault.

 

For those saying Gardy is doing nothing wring, are you suggesting they keep Punto, and never play him, or trade him? That was the question.

Pinto should be the backup catcher, which is what he's been since the call up.  I don't think he has much trade value.

[gunnarthor]

The Twins could just award Suzuki his incentive money and not play him.

Actually, I believe that is a violation of the CBA.  And even if it isn't, it would set a horrible precedent that the other owners and commissioner would certainly not allow.

[TheLeviathan]

It does seem that Pinto's actual talent level at catching doesn't enter into this conversation as often as it should.

 

Well, it's hard to talk about someone's level of catching when they, you know, aren't allowed to pay catcher much.

 

Another point against the "Pinto isn't playing because his defense is still bad" idea is that we also just recently heard from an ump and Gardy that he's been night and day better behind the plate and saw some of that with Nolasco.

 

This appears to be more about "the veteran should start against playoff teams" and to that logic I say: blech.

[Monkeypaws]

If it is not clear this is about Gardy and Pinto overall, that is my fault.

 

For those saying Gardy is doing nothing wring, are you suggesting they keep Punto, and never play him, or trade him? That was the question.

 

Freudian slip?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This appears to be more about "the veteran should start against playoff teams" and to that logic I say: blech.

Agree. The Twins repeat that argument enough and they'll begin to overstate its importance. I personally don't consider Cleveland a playoff contender at this point but be my guest. I doubt Cleveland is quivering over facing our veterans. If anything they might have more trouble with a bunch of young guys they don't have a book on.

[jokin]

Pinto should be the backup catcher, which is what he's been since the call up. 

 

I don't think he has much trade value.

 

And not playing him assures that to be the case.

 

This shouldn't be about "roles", but about what's best for the Twins in the long run

[Squirrel]

And not playing him assures that to be the case.

 

This shouldn't be about "roles", but about what's best for the Twins in the long run

And we all share different opinions on what is best for the Twins going forward.

[gunnarthor]

And not playing him assures that to be the case.

 

This shouldn't be about "roles", but about what's best for the Twins in the long run

I was responding to Mike's suggestion that they trade him in the offseason.  If we started him every game in the final week, it wouldn't change things.

 

Longterm, it's very likely that Suzuki is the better option.  I'm not sure Pinto isn't showing us more or less who he is.  He's a low avg guy with good pop who can take a walk.  That's a solid player but not an all star.  His OPS+ is about 100.  His iso walk rate is about .100 and his iso power is about .200.  Over the next two years, he may supplant Suzuki behind the plate.  But I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong playing Suzuki, who the team is committed to, over Pinto.

[Rosterman]

Pinto has to be in a vacuum. Someone may be in the wings that will be the Twins catcher of 2016 or 2017 and beyond. Shades of Wilson Ramos, who should've been the heir to Mauer, if the Twins knew Mauer WAS going to stop catching. But right now, today, Pinto is a guy without a posiion and his best bet it to develop catching skills that will make him more valuable to another organization or to be more valuable to the Twins, but aside from an injury to Suzucki, he will be stuck at AAA next season developing those skills, if he can. If he was the catcher of the future, he would be catching, at least 1/3 of the game if nothing else, working with any of the Rochester bullpen guys. But the Twins seem to like him even less than Suzucki, who is not all that great behind the plate, either.

 

As for pitcher ERAS, when you catch the new guy on the block or certain other pitchers, and the otehr guy catches the aces, there will be a difference.

 

Why Fryer is getting any innings behind the plate is beyond me. And Chris Herrmann is nothing right now. Easily two 40-man roster spots to open. Rohlfing, for his abcd 2014, is just a clone of Herrmann and younger, so we are set in THAT position. And AAA catchers are a dime a dozen. You can always bring back Rene Rivera, Jair Fernandez, Corky Miller or Eli Whiteside. Probably even Henry Blanco. And be glad we don't have Drew Butera, getting lots of at bats and innings in L.A., so many that his lifetime batting average has decreased!

 

Suzucki has made Pinto somewhat expendable. Vargas has made him totally expendable. 

[jokin]

I was responding to Mike's suggestion that they trade him in the offseason.  If we started him every game in the final week, it wouldn't change things.

 

Longterm, it's very likely that Suzuki is the better option.  I'm not sure Pinto isn't showing us more or less who he is.  He's a low avg guy with good pop who can take a walk.  That's a solid player but not an all star.  His OPS+ is about 100.  His iso walk rate is about .100 and his iso power is about .200.  Over the next two years, he may supplant Suzuki behind the plate.  But I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong playing Suzuki, who the team is committed to, over Pinto.

 

It isn't about the final week, it's about the final month, and the point of September call-ups on a rebuilding team.  And heavy on the operative phrase, "I'm not sure". We sure won't know much....and he has no shot at improving... if he's not playing.  Playing Suzuki all of these games in September tells us nothing about the future and accomplishes little more than that, and everything about Suzuki's resume tells us that this year is the anomaly, and that, as he turns 31 two weeks from today, he in all likelihood, reverts to his pre-2014 career OPS+ of 86.

[Otto von Ballpark]

But I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong playing Suzuki, who the team is committed to, over Pinto.

Arguably, he's doing something wrong with Suzuki, regardless of Pinto.

 

Here's a catcher, who by many accounts was overworked in his early career, was reduced to backup status (and quality) for multiple seasons, finally looked rejuvenated at the plate this year to get a 2-year contract extension... and we've done nothing to reduce his workload in August and September of a lost season.

 

Heck, even if you don't think Pinto is a future starter or trade chip, right now he's the most likely 2015-2016 backup or long-term replacement starter in case of Suzuki ineffectiveness or injury, so it probably behooves the team to get him some game reps with our pitching staff (not to mention MLB game reps, period) in what is, effectively, a fall version of spring training for the non-contending Twins.

 

I get that Gardy is finally excited to have a "full-time" catcher again, for the first time since 2010, but pushing starting catchers and ignoring the need to have/develop capable backups is kinda one of the reasons we (and Suzuki) got into their 2011-2013 catching funk in the first place.

[TheLeviathan]

.  I'm not sure Pinto isn't showing us more or less who he is.  He's a low avg guy with good pop who can take a walk. 

Not everyone can be an allstar....what you just described can easily be a good player. See: Brian Dozier. So I'm not sure why him being only solid is a justification not to play him more. Especially since there is a good chance "solid" is better than Suzuki sooner rather than later.

[gunnarthor]

Especially since there is a good chance "solid" is better than Suzuki sooner rather than later.

Probably not. 

[bird]

So basically the argument is that, a young guy should not be playing in a lost season? Got it. And catcher ERA might be worse than pitcher wins as a predictive stat......

No, the argument is to play the young players just like they have been doing. Do you have a complaint about playing time given to May or Vargas or Santana? Pinto is not young. He's in his 9th year. Perhaps your disconnect is is failing to recognize that Gardy isn't delusional about who Pinto is as a player. 

 

Pinto is not the long-term answer you might want him to be, as a starting catcher OR a back-up catcher, or as a DH. He's in the same boat as Parmelee was, and remember, there were a lot of people ready to fire Gardy over denying playing time to Parmelee. Well, and of course, for any other reason.

[bird]

That ERA was an argument in Pinto's favor. 

 

It is not a predictive stat.  But it works to describe how effective the pitchers were in surrendering earned runs when each of the three catchers worked with them.   Based on that, the pitching staff is as effective in avoiding opponents runs, when Pinto is catching as it is when Fryer is catching and just less than when Suzuki catching.  (Small sample not withstanding)

 

Add the fact that Pinto will improve with more reps, and is in the part of his career to improve, and I think that it is ridiculous that he is not catching meaningless games...   (But big Pinto fan here, so my position should not be a surprise; like that on Gardenhire   )

 

Lots of defensive matters (and opinions from certain pitchers and coaches) about the effectiveness of a catcher to call a game, but nothing as factual about how many runs does a pitching staff give up when someone is catching them.

It is NOT a fact that Pinto will improve with more reps. It is also doubtful, at best, that Pinto, finishing his 9th year, is "in the part of his career to improve". It's completely reasonable that he's being used as he is right now.

[stringer bell]

I wanted to see Pinto catch more. I. don't like that Suzuki has played as much as he has. I think the conversation has veered way beyond reality. Pinto isn't the best receiver, but he's not a complete butcher. Gardenhire's decision to play Suzuki could be wrong, but it is defensible. Suzuki isn't Johnny Bench, but he isn't Drew Butera.

[drjim]

Well, it's hard to talk about someone's level of catching when they, you know, aren't allowed to pay catcher much.

 

Another point against the "Pinto isn't playing because his defense is still bad" idea is that we also just recently heard from an ump and Gardy that he's been night and day better behind the plate and saw some of that with Nolasco.

 

This appears to be more about "the veteran should start against playoff teams" and to that logic I say: blech.

 

Pinto has caught plenty this year. I certainly would be in favor of him catching more, but the Twins aren't going to bench regular players either. I thought it would be more 40/60, but it will probably end up more 30/65/5, with a DH start or two.

 

My primary complaint would be if Fryer caught an excessive amount, but if he ends up at one start and 4 PAs, that seems to be a minor quibble.

[drjim]

I wanted to see Pinto catch more. I. don't like that Suzuki has played as much as he has. I think the conversation has veered way beyond reality. Pinto isn't the best receiver, but he's not a complete butcher. Gardenhire's decision to play Suzuki could be wrong, but it is defensible. Suzuki isn't Johnny Bench, but he isn't Drew Butera.

 

A conversation on here veered way beyond reality? Perish the thought.

[stringer bell]

After reading Birdwatcher's comments, I think there is some truth to his rationale. I think that he might be one of the thirty best catchers, but that it is possible that he wouldn't be a good fit as a backup. He hasn't done well with sporadic playing time and he hasn't yet got a pinch hit.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

No, the argument is to play the young players just like they have been doing. Do you have a complaint about playing time given to May or Vargas or Santana? Pinto is not young. He's in his 9th year. Perhaps your disconnect is is failing to recognize that Gardy isn't delusional about who Pinto is as a player. 

 

Pinto is not the long-term answer you might want him to be, as a starting catcher OR a back-up catcher, or as a DH. He's in the same boat as Parmelee was, and remember, there were a lot of people ready to fire Gardy over denying playing time to Parmelee. Well, and of course, for any other reason.

 

Yes I do have a complaint about Vargas. I would prefer to see Vargas get 3/4 time at first base. 

[TheLeviathan]

Pinto has caught plenty this year. I certainly would be in favor of him catching more, but the Twins aren't going to bench regular players either. I thought it would be more 40/60, but it will probably end up more 30/65/5, with a DH start or two.

 

My primary complaint would be if Fryer caught an excessive amount, but if he ends up at one start and 4 PAs, that seems to be a minor quibble.

 

He caught a lot at the beginning, the staff saw a problem, and now are on record that he's much improved.  So citing his April starts is irrelevant to that current complaint.

 

I'd like to see if he really is improved.

[TheLeviathan]

Probably not. 

 

Considering Suzuki is a career 89 OPS+, there's a pretty darn good chance of it.  I'm not sure if people have just forgotten that Suzuki was a backup caliber catcher or what, but he's not an elite defender himself and has had a flukey good season relative to his career.

 

So yeah, I'd kind of like to see if Pinto can catch as well as the field staff says he can now.

[jokin]

It is NOT a fact that Pinto will improve with more reps. 

 

Other than except for the fact that both the coaching staff and neutral third parties have gone on record that Pinto has improved with more AAA reps, and that logically, getting actual MLB experience is what turns a rookie into more of an experienced veteran, this statement might have some validity.  

[jokin]

Pinto has caught plenty this year. I certainly would be in favor of him catching more, but the Twins aren't going to bench regular players either. I thought it would be more 40/60, but it will probably end up more 30/65/5, with a DH start or two.

 

My primary complaint would be if Fryer caught an excessive amount, but if he ends up at one start and 4 PAs, that seems to be a minor quibble.

 

In what world is 23 starts at Catcher "plenty"?   

[Bark's Lounge]

I'm not too worried about Pinto's future with the Twins. He definitely has the hit tool and although his stats this season in the bigs do not reflect that, the man will hit, I feel very confident about this.

 

Next season, I look at Suzuki as the 1997 Joe Girardi and Pinto as the 1997 Jorge Posada. Pinto will get 250PA's next season and come 2016 he will be the starting catcher, just like Posada took over for the Yanks in 1998. Pinto needs a little bit more time to shore up his defensive abilities, just like Posada did. Their ages are comparable in this scenario and I have no doubt this will be the end outcome.

[Riverbrian]

While I agree that playing time for Pinto will only help his development.

 

I also believe... His playing time during September 2014... Isn't going to revive or kill him.

 

I think Pinto is potentially an offensive talent. I'm with the (what seems to be) majority. I await his full time deployment and it's hard to wait for it.

 

However... this month isn't going to kill him. Gardy is pretty consistent... He's gonna put his best lineup on the field in any game that has implications and it seems obvious that he thinks Suzuki is part of the best lineup and based on what Suzuki has done in 2014. I'm not going to argue that.

 

Last year... With Joe out... Pinto was our best option and he got 76 at bats.

 

This year... (With due respect to those Who want to look at Suzuki from the past) Suzuki did a hell of a nice job for us.

 

Anyway... September won't revive or kill him.

 

There is other stuff I might lay at Gardy's doorstep. This ain't one of them.

[drjim]

In what world is 23 starts at Catcher "plenty"?   

 

So AAA doesn't count?

[USAFChief]

So AAA doesn't count?

He only got 34 games at catcher in Rochester. As far as I know, none of them were witnessed by the major league staff, came against big league pitching, were thrown by the big league staff, or were umpired by big league umpires.

 

So no, in this case, it doesn't count for much.