Pinto or Gardy

[bird]

I'm bullish on Pinto, his bat looks to be above average for his position as is. The Girardi/Posada comp is interesting because part of why I'm down on Suzuki is a function of career production but it's also his age and high workload this year.

 

He seems like the perfect storm for a disaster and I'd like plan B to be well prepared.

I'm hoping Plan B is a young catcher from outside the system that projects to be be better than Suzuki, acquired via trade or FA, this off-season. If Pinto ends up being a money player, great. See ya, Suzuki.

[Mike Sixel]

It isn't just about Detroit. He isn't playing AT ALL. This isn't about three games.

 

Since people ask "why do you think the manager isn't good with young players" all the time, it seemed like, I should answer the question with this as an example. 

 

It isn't that I want Pinto playing every day. It isn't that he didn't play vs. Detroit, he is not playing at all. 

 

That, imo, is no way to prep for next year. Part of his job is to teach young players, and make them better for this year and next year. If it is happening with Pinto, it is hard to see.

 

If people don't want to know why some of us have doubts about Gardy......they probably shouldn't ask, or probably shouldn't read a thread entitled "Pinto or Gardy?". 

 

I have no idea if Pinto is any good or not, but I don't think the Twins know either. And before you say "you need to trust them, they have x job", they are the ones that planned on Hicks two years in a row, signed Bartlett, cut Worley for no reason, and signed Kubel. They are not w/o mistakes. 

 

IMO, in a lost season, not gathering in game MLB data on young players is one of those mistakes. YMMV. 

[bird]

I'm sorry guys, but I think those of you who believe that Gardy is playing Suzuki over Pinto to avoid a September swoon and keep his job are being cynical.

 

Exactly what is it that akes you cringe at the thought that Gardy's doing what most managers do when facing contending teams at the end of a lost season?

Are all managers self-serving then?

[Otto von Ballpark]

I REALLY enjoyed seeing Plouffe have a LONG conversation with Schafer when Schafer got thrown out at second base. It looked like Schafer needed a vet to prospect talk ATM and he got it from a source I did not expect it from.

Uh, Schafer and Plouffe are the same age.  Schafer actually has almost a full year more MLB service time.  It might be great that Plouffe is being a "mentor" vet, but we should probably get better/younger "prospects" than Schafer for him to mentor.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Exactly what is it that akes you cringe at the thought that Gardy's doing what most managers do when facing contending teams at the end of a lost season?

Huh, I swore that Suzuki started 2 of 3 against the White Sox last weekend, with Pinto not getting a single start behind the plate that series.

 

I guess I look forward to Pinto starting 2 of 3 against the Diamondbacks this week.  Should be starting tonight, so he can then start the day game on Wednesday behind the dish.

[tobi0040]

I'm sorry guys, but I think those of you who believe that Gardy is playing Suzuki over Pinto to avoid a September swoon and keep his job are being cynical.

 

Exactly what is it that akes you cringe at the thought that Gardy's doing what most managers do when facing contending teams at the end of a lost season?

Are all managers self-serving then?

 

How many contenders have we played this season?  

 

We are on pace for Suzuki catching 135 games and Pinto 25, assuming he catches another two which may not happen.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think the Doumit comparison for Pinto might not be far off the mark -- but the proper comparison would be Doumit at age 25 and cheap, just coming into his prime hitting years (111 OPS+ from ages 26-30 before hitting FA).  Even with negative fielding, baserunning... basically negative everything other than hitting, Doumit was a 2.2 bWAR player per 500 PA those years -- just about exactly what Suzuki has provided this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, it's not so much that Suzuki or Pinto is starting this particular handful of games, but the usage of Pinto strongly suggests one or more of the following:

 

A) The Twins are under-rating their need for catching depth in 2015-2016

They will never consider Pinto much of a catcher (and thus consider him a player without a position)

C) They will likely unload Pinto cheaply (or bury him at AAA before unloading him).

 

As I have mentioned before, shades of 2010 and Wilson Ramos ("we have a commitment to Mauer, why do we need Ramos?").

 

And even if the fault lies in Pinto's catching ability (or lack thereof), it's bad news for the Twins going forward, to have no real depth at the position.

[Thegrin]

When Doumit broke in with the Pirates he also played outfield.  Pinto can't do that.  The only thing he can do besides catch is DH or pinch hit.  Would you take at bats away from Vargas and give them to Pinto ? 

[drjim]

OK, I will admit tonight's lineup leaves me shaking my head. Pinto is not catching, which whatever, but also not DHing so Parmelee and Herrmann can be in the lineup while Mauer gets a day off.

[Otto von Ballpark]

When Doumit broke in with the Pirates he also played outfield.  Pinto can't do that.  The only thing he can do besides catch is DH or pinch hit.  Would you take at bats away from Vargas and give them to Pinto ? 

Doumit started 54 games in the outfield over 7 seasons with Pittsburgh, less than 10% of his total games there.  In only 2 seasons in Pittsburgh did Doumit start more than 3 games in the OF.

 

In the minors, Doumit is credited with only 7 games NOT at catcher.  He didn't come up with that versatility, he didn't provide much if any real value from it, and from the looks of his outfield play with the Twins, it may not have been much real versatility anyway.

 

Actually, Pinto's lack of opportunity elsewhere is another aspect of my worry here.  It increasingly looks like the Twins view him as a player without a position, which isn't good for him or the team.  And it feels like that judgement may be coming a little prematurely.

[Otto von Ballpark]

OK, I will admit tonight's lineup leaves me shaking my head. Pinto is not catching, which whatever, but also not DHing so Parmelee and Herrmann can be in the lineup while Mauer gets a day off.

Herrmann had one of those "flyball over a shallow outfield" doubles yesterday.  The Twins radio announcers gushed over it as a sign of hitting skill, and said it was an outcome which Gardenhire predicted if only he could get Herrmann some regular ABs.

[Boom Boom]

Not sure what it is that Gardenhire and Ryan think they're going to see out of Herrmann now... he's had several opportunities. 

 

Maybe he can be a functional player, but nothing he's done suggests that he should be a starting corner outfielder or a #2 hitter... if he isn't a backup catcher, he doesn't really have a role. 

[Mike Sixel]

Doug Bernier now has more starts in the last week, I believe......

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

It isn't that I want Pinto playing every day. It isn't that he didn't play vs. Detroit, he is not playing at all. 

 

 

Please do not question the integrity of the pennant race next year's amateur draft order.

[Willihammer]

Herrmann had one of those "flyball over a shallow outfield" doubles yesterday.  The Twins radio announcers gushed over it as a sign of hitting skill, and said it was an outcome which Gardenhire predicted if only he could get Herrmann some regular ABs.

That's not quite far.  Herrmann hit that ball high off the fence in front of the bullpen. It was not a cheap 2 bagger IMO.

 

I never thought I'd say it but I'm kind of intrigued by Herrmann. His approach has changed, higher hands. Seems to be swinging harder.

[bird]

How many contenders have we played this season?  

 

We are on pace for Suzuki catching 135 games and Pinto 25, assuming he catches another two which may not happen.

Who's talking about this season as a whole?

 

All thread long, we've been talking about these final games.

[Craig Arko]

I'm all in favor of playing Pinto. Although it may turn out Bluto or Flounder makes the better target.

[TheLeviathan]

Secondly, as someone noted, Suzuki has some incentives in his contract.  Gardy (and probably the FO) doesn't want the bad will (and potential grievances) by a player claiming the team is benching him so they could save money.  

 

I can at least understand the other two points, but I'm curious on this one - do we know what those incentives are?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

It is NOT a fact that Pinto will improve with more reps. It is also doubtful, at best, that Pinto, finishing his 9th year, is "in the part of his career to improve". It's completely reasonable that he's being used as he is right now.

I can't tell you that Pinto will improve with playing time, but I can assure you with 100% certainty that he will not improve without it. On top of that, how can you know what you have in Pinto without playing him? Further, how do you know that you need to find a replacement for him? Suzuki can't play every game forever. What then? Catchers aren't 4th outfielders or DHs, they don't grow on trees. At this point it seems the only plan at catcher for 2015 and beyond is Kurt Suzuki, when he should be a reliable plan B.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I can at least understand the other two points, but I'm curious on this one - do we know what those incentives are?

http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_24881011/twins-kurt-suzukis-maximum-salary-2014-is-3 he has bonuses at benchmarked starts at catcher goals according to the ppress

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Why are we so sure playing Pinto is playing to lose?

 

we have two types of lineups-- a "win now" lineup which we only use to overpower teams contending in the pennant race, and an automatic loss, black sox scandal, throw the game to the opponent, type of lineup. Pinto clearly belongs to the latter group.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Secondly, as someone noted, Suzuki has some incentives in his contract.  Gardy (and probably the FO) doesn't want the bad will (and potential grievances) by a player claiming the team is benching him so they could save money.  

 

Lastly, I suspect guys in the locker room (young and old) want to see the team let players reach incentives in their contracts, so it's good on Gardy to make it happen.

Grievance? Anyway, I happen to agree that Gardy is playing Suzuki primarily to help him get his $150k bonus. That doesn't seem like the best reason but it's a reason. It would sure be nice to hear a reporter come out and ask Gardy that question directly, just to let him answer the question for us. Especially in light of Ryan's claim that Pinto would get playing time.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That's not quite far.  Herrmann hit that ball high off the fence in front of the bullpen. It was not a cheap 2 bagger IMO.

 

I never thought I'd say it but I'm kind of intrigued by Herrmann. His approach has changed, higher hands. Seems to be swinging harder.

I admit, I didn't really see the play until now -- indeed it hit off the wall.  I had visions of Eric Fryer double bouncing on the warning track earlier this year.

 

Actually, I don't mind Herrmann either -- I've predicted he might survive the winter on the 40-man roster.  And obviously him getting ABs in the OF has nothing to do with Pinto getting reps at catcher.

[Otto von Ballpark]

All thread long, we've been talking about these final games.

Any thoughts on last night's lineup?  No Pinto despite playing a non-contender and Nolasco pitching.  I guess Arizona has LHP scheduled for tonight and tomorrow, but if the fairly strict criteria for playing Pinto is both A) playing a non-contender, and platoon advantage, that doesn't seem like a very good-faith effort to get him playing time this month.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the starting pitchers that Pinto has caught this year:

 

Hughes
Gibson
Pelfrey
Pelfrey
Correia
Pelfrey
Hughes
Johnson
Correia
Deduno
Correia
Deduno
Deduno
Deduno
Correia
Deduno
Correia
Deduno
May
Nolasco
Darnell
Nolasco
Swarzak

 

So he hasn't caught our #1 Hughes since April (nor our #2 Gibson since his first start of the season).

 

17 of his 23 games, he's caught Pelfrey, Deduno, Correia, Johnson, Darnell, or Swarzak... a lot of the same guys Fryer often caught too.

[tobi0040]

Who's talking about this season as a whole?

 

All thread long, we've been talking about these final games.

 

I was respondng to the assertion that Gardy i doing "what all teams do, play ther best players against contenders". 

 

The logic does not really hold weight now, or on July 1 when we knew we were not a contender.  Pinto has caught 23 games.

[The Wise One]

 

 

I have no idea if Pinto is any good or not, but I don't think the Twins know either. And before you say "you need to trust them, they have x job", they are the ones that planned on Hicks two years in a row, signed Bartlett, cut Worley for no reason, and signed Kubel. They are not w/o mistakes. 

 

. 

If they thought Pinto was going to be good he would be playing.  Suzuki would not have been extended. They have seen him for 9 years. Pinto's ceiling would appear to be backup catcher. Far different than other players. Hicks is viewed as a 5 tool sort of guy with a higer ceiling.

[USAFChief]

If they thought Pinto was going to be good he would be playing. .

If they thought Hardy was good they wouldn't have traded him.

 

If they thought Liriano was good they wouldn't have traded him.

 

If they thought Florimon wasn't any good they wouldn't have handed him the starting SS gig out of spring training.

 

The point..."the Twins are doing it, ergo its the correct decision" is an argument with little merit at best.

[TheLeviathan]

If they thought Hardy was good they wouldn't have traded him.

 

If they thought Liriano was good they wouldn't have traded him.

 

If they thought Florimon wasn't any good they wouldn't have handed him the starting SS gig out of spring training.

 

The point..."the Twins are doing it, ergo its the correct decision" is an argument with little merit at best.

 

That was an incredibly kind way to approach an argument that made my brain hurt.