Pinto or Gardy

[jokin]

While I agree that playing time for Pinto will only help his development.

 

I also believe... His playing time during September 2014... 

 

1)..... Isn't going to revive or kill him.

 

I think Pinto is potentially an offensive talent. I'm with the (what seems to be) majority. I await his full time deployment and it's hard to wait for it.

 

2) However... this month isn't going to kill him.

 

Gardy is pretty consistent... He's gonna put his best lineup on the field in any game that has implications and it seems obvious that he thinks Suzuki is part of the best lineup and based on what Suzuki has done in 2014. I'm not going to argue that.

 

Last year... With Joe out... Pinto was our best option and he got 76 at bats.

 

This year... (With due respect to those Who want to look at Suzuki from the past) Suzuki did a hell of a nice job for us.

 

3) Anyway... September won't revive or kill him.

 

There is other stuff I might lay at Gardy's doorstep. This ain't one of them.

 

Not much to say when it is agreed upon that September for a losing and rebuilding team is time for development of future less-experienced options, and that "playing time will only help his development"...

 

but then,

 

embedded in that same counterpoint opinion there is a need to be driven home, THREE separate times, that playing him OR not playing really doesn't makes any difference.  (Or does that mean that there's some shaky uncertainty in the counterpoint opinion?  )

[gunnarthor]

I'm honestly curious, what do people think Pinto can be?  He was a somewhat divisive prospect - Jason Parks at baseball prospectus loved him and ranked him #56, but that was the only list he made.  Other prospectors were less kind.  Klaw called him a AAAA guy, who couldn't catch at the ML level and didn't have enough bat for 1b/DH. 

 

My view is that, at best, he could be a slightly above avg hitter - say something in the 105 OPS+ range and a minus behind the plate.  But, over the course of a full season, something around a solid 2 WAR player. 

 

Suzuki, from 08-11 and again this year, has been a more or less reliable 3 WAR player.  The concern, I imagine on him, is the 12-13 years where he wasn't very good.  If this year is an illusion and he reverts to a .220/.280/.310 hitter, clearly Pinto is the way to go.  I'm a bit more optimistic on Suzuki remaining in the 2-3 WAR level next year, partly b/c I think he's batting style plays better here than in Oakland.  The Twins have apparently also made that bet since they are committed to him for two more years.  So I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong by keeping Suzuki as the main catcher these last few weeks.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm bullish on Pinto, his bat looks to be above average for his position as is. The Girardi/Posada comp is interesting because part of why I'm down on Suzuki is a function of career production but it's also his age and high workload this year.

 

He seems like the perfect storm for a disaster and I'd like plan B to be well prepared.

[Riverbrian]

Not much to say when it is agreed upon that September for a losing and rebuilding team is time for development of future less-experienced options, and that "playing time will only help his development"...

 

but then,

 

embedded in that same counterpoint opinion there is a need to be driven home, THREE separate times, that playing him OR not playing really doesn't makes any difference. (Or does that mean that there's some shaky uncertainty in the counterpoint opinion? )

Oh Jokin.... You got me.

 

LOL... A dime will make you richer... no doubt about it... You got me. ;-)

[Riverbrian]

I'm honestly curious, what do people think Pinto can be?  He was a somewhat divisive prospect - Jason Parks at baseball prospectus loved him and ranked him #56, but that was the only list he made.  Other prospectors were less kind.  Klaw called him a AAAA guy, who couldn't catch at the ML level and didn't have enough bat for 1b/DH. 

 

My view is that, at best, he could be a slightly above avg hitter - say something in the 105 OPS+ range and a minus behind the plate.  But, over the course of a full season, something around a solid 2 WAR player. 

 

Suzuki, from 08-11 and again this year, has been a more or less reliable 3 WAR player.  The concern, I imagine on him, is the 12-13 years where he wasn't very good.  If this year is an illusion and he reverts to a .220/.280/.310 hitter, clearly Pinto is the way to go.  I'm a bit more optimistic on Suzuki remaining in the 2-3 WAR level next year, partly b/c I think he's batting style plays better here than in Oakland.  The Twins have apparently also made that bet since they are committed to him for two more years.  So I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong by keeping Suzuki as the main catcher these last few weeks.

I really like his bat... Probably more than I should. I'd be happy with 105 but I think he could easily go North of that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'm honestly curious, what do people think Pinto can be?  He was a somewhat divisive prospect - Jason Parks at baseball prospectus loved him and ranked him #56, but that was the only list he made.  Other prospectors were less kind.  Klaw called him a AAAA guy, who couldn't catch at the ML level and didn't have enough bat for 1b/DH. 

 

My view is that, at best, he could be a slightly above avg hitter - say something in the 105 OPS+ range and a minus behind the plate.  But, over the course of a full season, something around a solid 2 WAR player. 

 

Suzuki, from 08-11 and again this year, has been a more or less reliable 3 WAR player.  The concern, I imagine on him, is the 12-13 years where he wasn't very good.  If this year is an illusion and he reverts to a .220/.280/.310 hitter, clearly Pinto is the way to go.  I'm a bit more optimistic on Suzuki remaining in the 2-3 WAR level next year, partly b/c I think he's batting style plays better here than in Oakland.  The Twins have apparently also made that bet since they are committed to him for two more years.  So I don't think Gardy is doing anything wrong by keeping Suzuki as the main catcher these last few weeks.

Suzuki, a reliable 3 WAR player?  He hasn't hit that mark since 2009.  Even this year, with a career high BABIP, career low K%, and no playing time lost to injuries, he will not reach that level by either B-Ref or Fangraph's accounting.  In fact, the only time he reached those levels (2008-2009), he caught ~135 games each season, which he is unlikely to repeat.

 

Meanwhile, you don't see the need for even marginal playing time investment in Pinto, who you suggest could be a "solid 2 WAR player".  Suzuki was an all-star and team leader with a 2.2 fWAR / 2.5 rWAR this year.  If Pinto's upside is to be a younger, cheaper equivalent to that, that's a fantastic option as a backup, replacement, or even time-sharing catcher, or a very interesting trade chip to other teams in need of a catcher, and certainly worth some extra looks at the position in the final months of a lost season, if only to make him more familiar with our pitchers in the event he is needed as a starter, and to keep Suzuki fresher.

 

What exactly is the upside to playing Suzuki now over Pinto?  I know a few late season games won't make a huge difference either way, but it's a little frustrating to watch a team and a manager operate like this -- you'd think after 2011-2013, they would have learned something about the importance of catching depth.  I see a manager, slightly unhealthily, falling in love with his first "full-time" catcher since 2010, and also a manager desperately trying to avoid yet another September swoon, although I would like to remind him that Pinto has had very little to do with those, and could very well play a part in our hopeful full season return to relevance in 2015-2016.

[TheLeviathan]

That post absolutely hit the nail on the head, wow.  Well done spycake.

[USAFChief]

That post absolutely hit the nail on the head, wow.  Well done spycake.

concur.

[Kwak]

Suzuki, a reliable 3 WAR player?  He hasn't hit that mark since 2009.  Even this year, with a career high BABIP, career low K%, and no playing time lost to injuries, he will not reach that level by either B-Ref or Fangraph's accounting.  In fact, the only time he reached those levels (2008-2009), he caught ~135 games each season, which he is unlikely to repeat.

 

Meanwhile, you don't see the need for even marginal playing time investment in Pinto, who you suggest could be a "solid 2 WAR player".  Suzuki was an all-star and team leader with a 2.2 fWAR / 2.5 rWAR this year.  If Pinto's upside is to be a younger, cheaper equivalent to that, that's a fantastic option as a backup, replacement, or even time-sharing catcher, or a very interesting trade chip to other teams in need of a catcher, and certainly worth some extra looks at the position in the final months of a lost season, if only to make him more familiar with our pitchers in the event he is needed as a starter, and to keep Suzuki fresher.

 

What exactly is the upside to playing Suzuki now over Pinto?  I know a few late season games won't make a huge difference either way, but it's a little frustrating to watch a team and a manager operate like this -- you'd think after 2011-2013, they would have learned something about the importance of catching depth.  I see a manager, slightly unhealthily, falling in love with his first "full-time" catcher since 2010, and also a manager desperately trying to avoid yet another September swoon, although I would like to remind him that Pinto has had very little to do with those, and could very well play a part in our hopeful full season return to relevance in 2015-2016.

I shall respond to the bolded statement.  Recall that thread that raised the rhetorical question about hether the Twins should play to maximize winning or losing?  I responded winning.  I wanted to see what this team can/will do with a huge bench and with most players needing to showcase their positives.  If playing Suzuki is part of maximizing wins in September--then fine--provided that a failed end result will be used to management changes.  If everybodies job is secure (and by now only arrogance would support that), then playing to win meaningless games at the expense of youth development/challenge testing is counterproductive and foolish.  I guess  will have my answer in a few weeks.

[gunnarthor]

 I know a few late season games won't make a huge difference either way

But we'll create a ton of threads expressing absolute outrage over it. How long was the Joe Benson thread? 

 

At the end of the day, I don't get the anger on this but I think Suzuki is pretty clearly the better option and he's not blocking anyone as the team has made the commitment to him over Pinto. 

[LaBombo]

Is that Pinto automatic or manual?  Four or six?  Hatchback or station wagon?

 

J/k.  Answer is Pinto in any combo.

[Mike Sixel]

Why are we so sure playing Pinto is playing to lose? 

[tobi0040]

Bottom line, Pinto not catching this year is just another thing we are going to have to accept until we get a new manager.  It doesn't make sense, it never made sense, and it is hurting the future of the team. None of us can make sense of it. 

 

File this in the same folder as the third catcher, the lineup, Santana in CF, etc.

[goulik]

I went to Saturdays game. With Pinto on the bench, We had Nunez, Schafer, and Arcia in the OF, Santana at SS and Vargas as DH. I observed the "Seasoned veterans" (Plouffe and Dozier) giving on the field direction to all that youth while Suzuki managed the rookie pitcher (May) While this topic has swayed me closer to wanting to see Pinto more behind the dish, I don't want him catching young pitchers and I do like seeing veterans out there helping the young guys come along.

I REALLY enjoyed seeing Plouffe have a LONG conversation with Schafer when Schafer got thrown out at second base. It looked like Schafer needed a vet to prospect talk ATM and he got it from a source I did not expect it from. There just were not many older guys on the field to give it and this too is an argument for NOT starting Pinto as much as we would like.

 

PS the relievers were Oliveros, Darnell, Achter, and Thielbar...

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think anyone is asking Pinto play every game. How about one game a week? That would be a start.....

[Linus]

First off, I would play Pinto a whole bunch right now.

 

Having said that, i think it is somewhat ironic that we are so upset about this as the guy is basically Ryan Doumit, except he hasn't even proven to be as good a hitter as Doumit.  And we wanted to run Doumit out of town on a rail.

 

Listening to the Gardy / TR shows yesterday, both were asked explicitly about Pinto and both essentially said, although is working hard at it, his work behind the plate is not good enough.  Because of the work ethic, both seemed open to the idea that he can get better but the burden of proof is on Pinto at this point.  It also seemed like both were of the opinion that his work on the side was the best way for him to improve right now.

[Mike Sixel]

doumit was a veteran, that had proven what he was in the majors. Pinto is a rookie, that needs playing time to get better. I'm not sure why the distinction isn't clear.

 

How does he show he is better or not, if he does not play?

[gunnarthor]

 

 

How does he show he is better or not, if he does not play?

As noted above, he works on the side.

[TheLeviathan]

As noted above, he works on the side.

 

I'm genuinely curious if you think this can be as effective.  I'm sure some of it can be simulated to a degree, but isn't there a lot missing to that sort of work?

 

Plus, it doesn't seem like there is disagreement that he is better.  What seems to be getting in the way has nothing to do with his ability and much more with his experience.

[Mike Sixel]

Lots of players look great in practice, not in games. Lots look great in games, but not practice. I am no expert, but I'd think seeing a player in a game is very different than a bullpen session......

[gunnarthor]

I'm genuinely curious if you think this can be as effective.  I'm sure some of it can be simulated to a degree, but isn't there a lot missing to that sort of work?

No idea, but I'm just some idiot on a message board.  More importantly, the quotes above from Gardy and Ryan seem to think it does.  And I imagine he'll be working on it in winter ball as well.

 

Also, I'm not as high on Pinto as some are.  And I certainly could be wrong - I thought Arcia wouldn't make it to the majors.  (Although I was right on Benson/Revere arguments).  

[TheLeviathan]

No idea, but I'm just some idiot on a message board.  More importantly, the quotes above from Gardy and Ryan seem to think it does.  And I imagine he'll be working on it in winter ball as well.

 

Also, I'm not as high on Pinto as some are.  And I certainly could be wrong - I thought Arcia wouldn't make it to the majors.  (Although I was right on Benson/Revere arguments).  

 

They do seem to believe it helped in AAA (since he didn't play catcher much there), but I'm not sure the problem is his catching ability.  At least Gardy has spoken publicly to the contrary.  

 

The issue here to me is why someone with potentially more talent (or at least roughly similar ability to contribute but cheaper and younger) is being pushed down simply because of his non-veteran status.  It's easily one of my biggest issues with Gardy.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

No idea, but I'm just some idiot on a message board.

Disagree.

 

I concede Suzuki has played well enough to stay in the lineup and I'm not angry about Pinto's lack of playing time, but there's no way to know if Pinto can make that final step unless we let him play. Nolasco pitches tonight, and Pinto has successfully called one of Nolasco's recent wins, we're playing a non contender, so expect Pinto to start tonight, right?

[gunnarthor]

 

 

The issue here to me is why someone with potentially more talent (or at least roughly similar ability to contribute but cheaper and younger) is being pushed down simply because of his non-veteran status.  It's easily one of my biggest issues with Gardy.  

I think there are a few points you aren't giving enough weight to.  First, Suzuki and the Twins have made a commitment to each other.  If Suzuki were leaving as a FA, I'd agree with you.  But teams don't generally bench starters who they expect to be starting the following years.  That's not just the Twins, it's all teams.

 

Secondly, as someone noted, Suzuki has some incentives in his contract.  Gardy (and probably the FO) doesn't want the bad will (and potential grievances) by a player claiming the team is benching him so they could save money.  

 

Lastly, I suspect guys in the locker room (young and old) want to see the team let players reach incentives in their contracts, so it's good on Gardy to make it happen.

[Linus]

doumit was a veteran, that had proven what he was in the majors. Pinto is a rookie, that needs playing time to get better. I'm not sure why the distinction isn't clear.

 

How does he show he is better or not, if he does not play?

The point is that Pinto projects to be a Doumit like player - below average defensively, above average offensively relative to the position he plays.  That earned Doumit the right to be the TD whipping boy while people are bothered that Pinto isn't playing.

 

As I said in my post, I would be playing him.  And no, I don't believe working only on the side is good enough.  But Gardy and Ryan made it pretty clear they are not nearly as impressed with him as most of us are.

[goulik]

Would you rather trade Pinto, or fire Gardy?

Simple answer? Yes!

 

Trade for best offer on Pinto, move on from Gardy.

[bird]

Yes I do have a complaint about Vargas. I would prefer to see Vargas get 3/4 time at first base. 

Because...?

[ericchri]

I think one question I'm not sure about yet is who's going to be the better hitter, Pinto or Vargas?  Vargas looks to have a higher upside, his power is ridiculous, but Pinto's no slouch and at the moment we're still on SSS for both.  There's probably only room for one of them unless someone else gets hurt/traded. If Pinto hits well and Vargas fades Pinto could still DH, but I have my doubts he's ever going to be considered a catcher for this team again.

 

I can't see how Pinto works his way into the lineup at this point, and I don't know that a new manager changes that, so I'd probably trade Pinto.  I'd probably let Gardy go as well, but I'm not sure all of this is Gardy specific (it seems fairly systemic in that everyone seems to be down on Pinto's catching ability, pitchers, coaches, front office) even if I'm disappointed in Pinto's lack of playing time.  Like many I've just reached the point where I don't think Gardenhire suits the team as we move forward, the Pinto situation is only one small part of that feeling.  I tend to believe sports teams are way too quick to make coaching changes, but I don't think that could be said in this case, Gardy's had a pretty long run now.

[tobi0040]

If you believe that people act out of their own self interests, doesn't it make sense that guy playing for a million dolar paycheck would want to win now and not really care about the future?  That is the fundamental issue.  Gardy believes Suzuki at catcher and Santana in CF gives our team the best chance to win now and that is the only thing that matters to him.

 

In a rebuilding mode and particulary in a season when you are going to lose 90 games, the ownership group needs to step in and tell Gardy who is going to play where.  Or they can step in and give the GM more say over who plays and and what position. Or they could fire him now and tell an interim guy how it is going to be. 

 

The structure of a manager that is insecure about his job, a GM that does not have any say in where guys play  and a hands off ownership group is a recipe for disaster.  I am not a Gardy guy, I want to see him let go, but the blame here goes to the top.

[bird]

Other than except for the fact that both the coaching staff and neutral third parties have gone on record that Pinto has improved with more AAA reps, and that logically, getting actual MLB experience is what turns a rookie into more of an experienced veteran, this statement might have some validity.  

Again, it is not a fact that Pinto will improve with reps. We may not like it, but the much much greater likelihood is that Pinto is close to his ceiling as a catcher. Like everyone else, I had been hopeful that he'd be more accomplished out of the blocks in 2014. And maybe, similar to Plouffe, he'll be a late bloomer defensively. But, at this stage of his career I would have no problem with the Twins taking another direction as soon as 2015. Frankly, I'm almost as concerned about counting on Suzuki as the starter as I am counting on Pinto as the backup. 

 

I understand the distaste for playing to win against Detroit and leaving Pinto on the bench, but I can see the logic of respecting the contenders by playing to win, too.

 

Either way, it's hardly a reason to get all whipped up on the manager.