Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"

[Reider]

Fun fact:

 

Brian Dozier's lowest single season batting average is .234.

 

Pedro Florimon's highest single season batting average is .221.

 

Oh I see what you did there..

 

Pedro Florimon's batting average last year was .221

 

Brian Dozier's batting average this year is .180

 

You guys are hilarious. It seems like whenever we get someone good, people want to get rid of them ASAP. Florimon is the best defensive SS we've had in years and people are in a panic in the middle of April to replace him. Dozier had a good year last year and people are talking about trading him away. Wait until June before getting too excited.

[Reider]

Sure, BUT after today's game, Dozier's batting average is less than twice as high as Florimon's!

 

(On a side note--Jose Bautista, center field? His "play" on Florimon's "triple" single-handedly raised Florimon's SLG 50 points for the season.)

So what do you want to do about it? Send Florimon down to the minors and replace him with the worst defensive SS in the league last year? I think people just need to relax. The Twins are probably going to have to trade for someone better than Nunez (e.g. JJ Hardy) or wait until the off season and sign a SS (e.g. JJ Hardy).

[cmathewson]

Same idea. Why not flip the roles of Escobar and Florimon?

 

Good question. I think the answer is Escobar has versatility while Florimon does not. This, I take it, is a key aspect of the Nunez deal. He isn't particularly good at any position, but he has played most of them.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You guys are hilarious. It seems like whenever we get someone good, people want to get rid of them ASAP. Florimon is the best defensive SS we've had in years and people are in a panic in the middle of April to replace him. Dozier had a good year last year and people are talking about trading him away. Wait until June before getting too excited.

 

You really need to stop rebutting my posts with arguments I haven't made. Refer to the forum rules, that is clearly against TD commenting policy. I have not advocated trading Dozier. Not once. I think it's ridiculous to even consider trading him at this point and I've said as much. If Rosario comes on strong next season and can stick at second, then it's a different argument.

 

Florimon may be the best defensive shortstop in years but he's also the worst offensive shortstop we've seen since Juan Castro.

 

Combine those two elements and you have a not-very-good baseball player.

 

Oh I see what you did there..

 

Pedro Florimon's batting average last year was .221

 

Brian Dozier's batting average this year is .180

 

It's impossible to not see the logical fallacy in this argument.

[stringer bell]

Good question. I think the answer is Escobar has versatility while Florimon does not. This, I take it, is a key aspect of the Nunez deal. He isn't particularly good at any position, but he has played most of them.

I think the versatility thing is key. Escobar has a major league future as a utility player, while Florimon is a shortstop and shortstop only. If Florimon is optioned, what do the Twins do with him--send him to AA? They want Santana to get reps in Rochester. I would think that if they decide he is a hopeless case with the bat, that they will release him. Escobar and Nunez are both utility guys, but one can slide into being the regular SS and if it doesn't work out, they can give the other guy a chance. I don't see either with having more more upside than Florimon, but at least they can be replacement players at several positions.

[strumdatjag]

The Twins' Steve Lombardozzi was viewed as a light hitting player, but he had a .233 batting average. That would be the Lombo Line!!!!!

[jimbo92107]

Not quite ready to give up on Florimon. Late last season his stance and decision making started looking better at the plate. This season he got a slow, delayed start because of his appendicitis. I had mine removed a long time ago by a monkey with a dull spoon. Yes, having your appendix removed can screw you up. I was physically useless for about a month, and I wasn't trying to swing a 32-ounce bat suddenly at a major league fastball. Florimon's swing might not be "normal" even for him, until mid-season. A hole in your stomach can do that to you.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

There are 27 or 24 outs for each opposing team in a game (24 if the Twins are ahead after the top of the 9th and assuming the Twins are playing at home). He bats 1/9 of the time. What stats are useful in evaluating his 4-5 AB per game vs. his number of fielding plays during a game? My non-statistical gut tells me his fielding is so good that it out-weighs his poor hitting...if only he could advance the runners by bunts or well placed ground outs, advancing runners. The strikeouts are not acceptable. He needs to immediately quit trying to ever hit home runs and learn how to make useful contact with the pitched baseball, learn how to bunt, learn how to walk, and steal bases. Easier said than done, but hey, today is an off day due to weather...let's practice.. How about incentives for every walk, for every time he advances a runner, for every successful bunt. His fielding is so good, we must have these discussions. Good article and good comments.

[Reider]

I have not advocated trading Dozier. Not once. I think it's ridiculous to even consider trading him at this point and I've said as much.

I know, that's actually something we agree on. At some point we need to keep our good players. I'd say year 4 of our rebuilding phase is a good time to start doing that.

 

Florimon may be the best defensive shortstop in years but he's also the worst offensive shortstop we've seen since Juan Castro.

 

Combine those two elements and you have a not-very-good baseball player.

Yeah, I know. I really wish Pedro was a better hitter. We'd have one heck (am I allowed to use that word on here?) of a baseball player if he could hit better.

 

It's impossible to not see the logical fallacy in this argument.

Oh relax Brock. I'm just joking around. I know exactly what Dozier brings to the table. I like him as much as everybody else does. I just wish people would get off of my ass about Florimon already. Everyone knows that he's historically a below average hitter and off to a poor start this season.

 

However, you have to admit, he's been pulling his weight the last couple of games. His defense is a given, but he's also made some key contributions offensively. I know it's only a couple of games, but perhaps he's now on his way back to last year's numbers?? Perhaps he'll overshoot those numbers a bit and we will be pleasantly surprised?

[Reider]

I think the versatility thing is key. Escobar has a major league future as a utility player, while Florimon is a shortstop and shortstop only.

I actually very much disagree with you sir. Florimon is a shortstop because of his skill set. It takes a special person to play the position at a high level and he has that skill set.

 

Can you please give me one reason why he couldn't play 2nd or 3rd base?

 

Also, if you consider Pedro's speed and arm, and his ability to go back, forward, and side to side for balls (remember that ball earlier this year that Pedro went all the way into foul territory to catch after the strong wind blew it over?) The guy can cover some ground. He has tools to potentially be converted into a corner outfielder?? Maybe I'm wrong, I've never seen him play outfield before, but he seems to get a good read on pop fly's. Combine that with his range and strong arm and I don't see why he couldn't possibly play elsewhere?

 

I think the only thing holding Florimon back is his poor hitting. The reason why he's primarily a SS and hasn't been tried anywhere else (e.g. utility role) is because is defensive skill set is superior to most others. The Twins don't have to even attempt to try and use him as a utility player because defensively there's nobody as good or better than him at the moment. SS is where he belongs due to his superior skill set.

[Reider]

Not quite ready to give up on Florimon. Late last season his stance and decision making started looking better at the plate. This season he got a slow, delayed start because of his appendicitis. I had mine removed a long time ago by a monkey with a dull spoon. Yes, having your appendix removed can screw you up. I was physically useless for about a month, and I wasn't trying to swing a 32-ounce bat suddenly at a major league fastball. Florimon's swing might not be "normal" even for him, until mid-season. A hole in your stomach can do that to you.

Thank you for sharing your point of view. I've never had to go through what you and Pedro went through, so it's good to hear from someone who's went through something like that.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Florimon's dWar was 2.1 in 2013, that's not going to change much this year. His defense and the impact of being involved in many more defensive plays as a SS more than his 4-5 plate appearances per game, defense will be a much larger impact on the outcome of more games over the course of the season. However, this Twins team can't afford 3 wasted spots in the lineup over the whole season. Suzuki has hit well, but won't keep it up over the whole season. So far Hick's stats look eerily similar to 2013, but he started slow last year (much slower than this year) maybe he'll get stronger over the season.

 

my point is Florimon is less the problem, than the combination of his, Hicks, and Sukuki's bats. Hicks may be self correcting, Suzuki should be a smaller part of the lineup as the season goes on, so the problem should be solved over time.

[DocBauer]

But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.

 

Point: Never had my appendix removed. While not a "serious" issue medically, nonetheless, it was time away from the field, conditioning, routine, practice, batting practice, etc. Im not certain the 3 weeks he had to close out the spring was fair to him, and I still believe he may have been better served getting a little rehab time.

 

That being said, 13 games or so is not enough time to evaluate anyone really, pro or con. But it is the almost complete lack of being able to help in any way that is frustrating. Not even successful bunts or hitting behind the runner is painful. However, we did see some of those positives last season, especially the first half.

 

With due respect to Guzman, I believe Florimon is the best defensive SS the Twins have had since Gagne. And defense remains his primary asset as well his primary responsibility. As such, the Twins can very much afford a weaker hitter at 9 if they can continue to produce offense even close to what they have been producing so far. Some will regress, but others will escalate.

 

So what IS acceptable for production from Florimon is the question?

 

Career milb numbers don't tell a complete story. Some players maintain, others advance, others regress. But if you took Florimon's milb numbers and projected them over 500 ab's, you would have the following:

 

.249 Avg/ .323 OB/ .672 OPS/ 26 Dbl's/ 3.5 triples/ 6 HR's/ 19.5 SB's

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend he can achieve those numbers at a ML level. With his defense and numbers like that he'd not only be a stalwart, but possibly an all-star.

 

But a regression to .240/ .310 & .650 ish with similar XB and SB numbers would be very acceptable. In other words, pretty much a full season of what he did the first half of last season.

[DocBauer]

The one thing that frustrates me about the Twins SS position is a seeming stubborness against trying anything/anyone else.

 

I understand Santana's athleticism and potential, but he's just not ready yet it appears.

 

I understand Florimon is an excellent fielder, and the Twins hope he can hit like he did last year, at least in the first half. He doesn't really have to "improve" as a hitter really. Just do what he did the first half of last season but over a full season. That in itself would show improvement and progression.

 

But until, or unless, that happens, why is Escobar just sitting on the bench? He is a SS by trade, and since the day the Twins acquired him, Gardy has been very positive as to his fielding abilities. Don't the Twins owe it to themselves to see what he could accomplish on a daily basis?

[oldguy10]

After realizing some of the Twins' batting numbers (3rd in total runs scored in MLB for instance) I think it is time I reconsider on Florimon - any team that can score like that can surely carry a fielding whiz at shortstop regardless of how he hits. Colabello for A.L. MVP so far also!

[stringer bell]

I've followed this conversation for six pages and commented a couple of times. Here is my take on the "sub-issues" at hand: 1) Yes, the appendectomy slowed Florimon early, but he was fully healthy (but behind) well before the regular season started. He probably was the one starter that needed a full spring to get some semblance of comfortable at the plate. 2) There is no doubt in my mind that Florimon is the best defensive shortstop in the system and shortstop is a crucial defensive position. 3) It does appear that P-Flo is the most likely casualty when Eduardo Nuñez is recalled, so his leash is very short. 4) Florimon's hitting since he has been a Twin is poor and the prospects for more than marginal improvement are extremely small. 5) This season's poor start is fuel for the fire, but it is so early that a couple of good days (well maybe a week of good days) would make Florimon's numbers look OK.

[Brandon]

Since the April 10th day off, Florimon is 4 for 18 a .222 batting average with 3 walks for a .333 OBP and 2 of those hits were a double and triple for a .389 Slg% and a .722 OPS. Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year. He also has 4 stolen bases too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year.

 

That OPS would be more than tolerable from Florimon, it'd be downright good.

 

I just don't think he's capable of doing it.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I've carried the ball (so to speak) for Florimon since he first appeared. He was one of Ryan's first acquisitions when Ryan unretired and inherited Nishioka as the starting shortstop. But I heard that Florimon missed some balls in the Tampa series. Unacceptable for a major leaguer to misplay a ground ball in a dome. Maybe after effects from his appendicitis were affecting him. He has always passed "the eye test" by me but the fact is he has missed some plays and he has no margin for error. We will soon reach the point where he will have to bat league average .260-.275 for the remainder of the season, just to get back to last year's .221. Come on Pedro, show us something, and fast!

[Mike Sixel]

3-4 defensive plays a game, the VAST majority of which are makable by any SS, are more important than 4-5 at bats a game? I don't think so.

[Guest USAFChief]

Since the April 10th day off, Florimon is 4 for 18 a .222 batting average with 3 walks for a .333 OBP and 2 of those hits were a double and triple for a .389 Slg% and a .722 OPS. Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year. He also has 4 stolen bases too.

Last 7 days: .100/.182/.100. Oops, trend reversed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.

 

With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.

[Guest USAFChief]

I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.

I would go so far as to say it was indefensible to go into the season with Florimon as the primary SS option. It should come as a surprise to nobody to learn he's not going to hit enough to keep a job, or invest time into. He will eventually lose his starting SS job with the Twins--next week or next month or next year--and when he does he will never regain it, here or elsewhere. Lets just hope it doesnt take the Twins as long to realize their error as it did with Rivas and other similar players who went from starting jobs to part time players on their way out of the league the day they left the Twins.

[Brock Beauchamp]

At least Rivas had upside because of his MiLB performances and age.

 

Florimon, not so much.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Lets just hope it doesnt take the Twins as long to realize their error as it did with Rivas and other similar players who went from starting jobs to part time players on their way out of the league the day they left the Twins.

 

If only we could combine Rivas' bat (80 OPS+) with Florimon's glove, we'd have an acceptable starter!

[Otto von Ballpark]

At least Rivas had upside because of his MiLB performances and age.

 

Ah, I remember being excited about Rivas, circa 2001.

 

It's amazing how similar his MiLB and MLB batting lines are. He was like a .680 OPS chameleon -- no matter his age or level, he was posting a .680 OPS.

 

If he could have been even an average defender, he's probably useful as a utility guy if not a starter, especially at pre-arb salaries.

[Reider]

I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.

 

With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.

Was trading away J.J. Hardy defensible?

[twinsnorth49]

Was trading away J.J. Hardy defensible?

 

Not particularly in my opinion, what's your point?

 

.125/.208/.188 , where do you draw the line? Not even the greatest human baseball sucking vacuum of a SS in history can justify that line.

[Reider]

Not particularly in my opinion, what's your point?

 

.125/.208/.188 , where do you draw the line? Not even the greatest human baseball sucking vacuum of a SS in history can justify that line.

Instead of taking a baby or small step forward, he took a large step back. I am frustrated with his hitting. I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe give Escobar a few more starts than normal for the time being and see if he can get something going... At least until the Twins can bring someone in. I'm not convinced that Nunez is the answer. His defense is too frightening.

 

I want to give Florimon until June, but watching him strike out and hit duck snorts to the pitcher is scary. Get it together Pedro!