Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"

[Shane Wahl]

I don't understand why Florimon wasn't DL-ed given the appendectomy. He clearly is not healthy enough to hit. He is a bad hitter, but not this bad. And last year he did flash a little power and that isn't happening. Get him an injury and get him down to rehab. Escobar is perfectly fine and the Twins could add Nunez's bat or Beresford's glove (and singles bat?) if they want.

[PopRiveter]

Shane's probably just described the best plan.

 

When he came onboard with the club, I was opposed to the idea of a no-hit SS. Then I watched him play. Honestly, his D is such an asset that his bat don't bother me none at all.

 

The step from a .220/9 HR hitter with an excellent glove to a .260/12 HR hitter with a weak glove doesn't appeal to me and fans who are calling for his replacement would eventually be calling for Nunez's head, Escobar's head, Santana's head, Beresford's head, etc.

 

I think it was wrong to work off the rust with the big club, but we can reasonably expect that he'll produce at 3x the rate he is so far (which would put him in line with historic averages) and that is not unforgivable at short.

 

Jason Bartlett got MVP votes in 2008 when he posted a .690 OPS at short!

 

PeeFlow's history is that of a low-mid .600's OPS. That is fine when paired with his glove.

[puckstopper1]

I have been in the pro-Florimon camp, believing that defense is crucial and that P-Flo could raise his OBP a bit just by making contact a bit more and perhaps bunting successfully a few more times. So far (and it is really early), it looks like he doesn't have a clue at the plate. I do think that in order for Florimon to continue with the Twins 1) he needs to hit at least as well as he did last year and 2) that either he is a starter or he is relegated to the minor leagues or release.

 

Stinger makes a good point. How many times has Pedro tried to bunt for base hits this year? That was supposed to been part of his "aresenal" this year.

[edavis0308]

I wonder what it would take to trade for JJ Hardy.

 

....too soon?

[cmathewson]

I don't understand why Florimon wasn't DL-ed given the appendectomy. He clearly is not healthy enough to hit. He is a bad hitter, but not this bad. And last year he did flash a little power and that isn't happening. Get him an injury and get him down to rehab. Escobar is perfectly fine and the Twins could add Nunez's bat or Beresford's glove (and singles bat?) if they want.

 

I think he's the kind of hitter who needs to really work hard and long in the cage to have a chance. Losing the first three weeks of spring training made it almost impossible for him to be in good form out of spring training. So why not start him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment in extended spring until he can get his swing back? I don't understand why they didn't do this.

[reinhardt_nation]

Is anyone else interested in seeing if BullDozier can remedy the shortstop situation?

 

The BulldDozier of today is much different from the prospect who was rushed to the bigs, never looking settled defensively or offensively as a result.

 

I'm ok with Florimon for now - I pretend the Twins are in the National League and a pitcher has to swing every 9

[twinstalker]

The only reason the Twins should EVER bunt is 1. traditional bunting situation, and 2. Florimon is up, and pinch-hitting isn't an option (e.g. the stud hitter who would win the game for you is your back-up catcher).

 

But, of course, bunting would even be stupid if Florimon were even a AAA light-hitter. He's not. His defense is okay, but it can be replaced. His bat can be replaced by me, and I can't even hitting a 90 mph batting cage ball.

[Seth Stohs]

I think he's the kind of hitter who needs to really work hard and long in the cage to have a chance. Losing the first three weeks of spring training made it almost impossible for him to be in good form out of spring training. So why not start him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment in extended spring until he can get his swing back? I don't understand why they didn't do this.

 

What was the injury? By opening day, he had played in 3 weeks of games and was playing as much as the starters in the last week to 10 days.

[edavis0308]

Is anyone else interested in seeing if BullDozier can remedy the shortstop situation?

 

The BulldDozier of today is much different from the prospect who was rushed to the bigs, never looking settled defensively or offensively as a result.

 

I'm ok with Florimon for now - I pretend the Twins are in the National League and a pitcher has to swing every 9

 

No. Then we have a hole at 2nd, and someone else has to bat second.

 

/rim shot.

[Alex]

The limbo line for me is when he hits bad enough that you'd prefer to DH him over the pitcher.

The Hicks comparison, while valid from small sample size standpoint doesn't hold up in other ways, like the fact (already mentioned) that he just hasn't hit -- ever. The other reason it's bad is that Hicks was 23 last year and Florimon is 27 this year and this isn't his first exposure to major league pitching (though he doesn't have 1000 plate appearances yet).

 

Is Escobar really that bad defensively? I realize his numbers don't look much better, but he wasn't getting regular at bats and he has a smaller number.

[Rosterman]

It is more of a question on how many nopn-batters you can carry in a lineup. How long can you keep Dozier, who will give you the occasional homerun, although giving you a leadoff homer is not something to cheer about. Can you also afford to have a cenetrfielder who also hit the Mendoza line. And can you carry a catcher than hits the Mendoza line, even with power. You CAN have one batting hole, always, in a lineup (which in the National League is usually the pitcher). You can also have a light-hitter in the outfield of he has speed (also on the basis). When you go beyond that, the poor bat ahs to be replaced by a better bat, no matter the outcome in the field. You can have the best fielding team in the league and still lose a lot of games 1 or 2-0. Let.s look at the Twins. Dozier: Has some punch, adequate at 2B. Mauer, can be perfect, but helps more if the people batting before him egt on base more than 33/40% of the time. Willingham needs to heal. Kubel ahs been a surprise. Colabello is a glorified bench player. You use him when he is hot. Suzuki will put the ball in play, but unless he can outhit Pinto, and unless Pinto can outhit Suzuki, we have a weakness behind-the-plate. Hicks is a total work in progress. Can he just get on base. Floirmon suffer because of Hicks before him and Dozier after him. The guy will swing and push and thus not do anything because there is no need to pitch to him period. Plouffe just needs to show consistency. Bartlett isn't ultimately worth it, sadly. Herrmann is bench fodder, sad to say. Mastro has to make the most of his opportunity or we get Ramirez back. The Twins are suffering bigtime because of Hicks/Florimon/Dozier batting back to back, and this ultimately hurts Mauer.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It is more of a question on how many nopn-batters you can carry in a lineup. How long can you keep Dozier, who will give you the occasional homerun, although giving you a leadoff homer is not something to cheer about. Can you also afford to have a cenetrfielder who also hit the Mendoza line. And can you carry a catcher than hits the Mendoza line, even with power. You CAN have one batting hole, always, in a lineup (which in the National League is usually the pitcher). You can also have a light-hitter in the outfield of he has speed (also on the basis).

 

While I agree with the sentiment (that the Twins have too many empty hitters), Dozier doesn't belong anywhere in this conversation. He has been an above average hitter for a full season now.

[Seth Stohs]

It is more of a question on how many nopn-batters you can carry in a lineup. How long can you keep Dozier, who will give you the occasional homerun, although giving you a leadoff homer is not something to cheer about.

 

I guarantee it is something that I would cheer about. Whether it is Dozier, Mauer, Florimon, Santana, whoever.

[oldguy10]

Reference my earlier comment about pinch hitting for Florimon in the late innings - I said that is virtually impossible with thirteen pitchers on the roster. I think that is a misuse of the entire roster and I asked if any other MLB teams operates in such a manner, does anyone know and, if so, why do they do so?

[LaBombo]

Florimon isn't a starter on a contending team. So unless you believe the Twins are a contender in 2014, the only reason to worry about Florimon is that he's blocking a shortstop who will be a worthwhile starter when the Twins do contend. Given the reports and defensive stats on Nunez and the holes in Santana's game, that would leave Escobar, but it's almost as hard to see him help the Twins contend as a starter down the road as it is to see Florimon do so.

 

So if the Twins stick with Florimon if he hits like last year or even a little worse, he'll do his job just fine in my book. He'll help bail out the contact-friendly rotation, keep Gardy busy calling for bunts and steals, and hit in such a way that nobody in the front office worthy of a job can mistakenly believe that he's a starter on a major league contender.

 

Maybe Florimon just needs a new job title to enhance fan appreciation of the role he fills this year. Let's call him... the shortstopgap.

[Guest USAFChief]

"You CAN have one hole in the lineup...(like in the) NL." The difference is, in the NL, every team has one hole in the lineup. T

[Otto von Ballpark]

If we had a interesting replacement at 2B, I would try Dozier back at SS in a second. That is another frustrating aspect to the Rosario situation.

[OldTimeTwinkie]

I don't understand hy the twins let him switch hit. Arguably hitting is one of the most difficult skills in sports to master so why when his tract record is what it is (around .200) do you think he can master both sides. Why not put all his reps on one side so he can develop a sound batting stroke. It defies logic. Hewould be better off hitting from the same side no matter who is pitching. If he ever gets one side down maybe he can then think about going back.

[Thrylos]

The limbo line for me is when he hits bad enough that you'd prefer to DH him over the pitcher.

The Hicks comparison, while valid from small sample size standpoint doesn't hold up in other ways, like the fact (already mentioned) that he just hasn't hit -- ever. The other reason it's bad is that Hicks was 23 last year and Florimon is 27 this year and this isn't his first exposure to major league pitching (though he doesn't have 1000 plate appearances yet).

 

Is Escobar really that bad defensively? I realize his numbers don't look much better, but he wasn't getting regular at bats and he has a smaller number.

 

Escobar is not that bad defensively at SS. His metrics are close to Florimon's and he just got the SS gold glove in VWL this past winter. He should be starting at SS.

[Reider]

This is one that numbers cannot tell offensively. Florimon is a rally killer. If he made outs while making some contact and moved up (or scored) runners, a low slash line would be acceptable. But he is truly horrible. Below the Butera line and that says a ton.

A rally killer? Are you aware that last game, bottom of the 8th, Twins down 1. Florimon walks, steals second, then scores the tying run? Sounds like a gamer to me. The problem is, people look at stats, but they don't actually watch the games. People who watch the games would know that Florimon is playing with confidence and is battling at the plate, even if balls aren't missing gloves.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Reference my earlier comment about pinch hitting for Florimon in the late innings - I said that is virtually impossible with thirteen pitchers on the roster. I think that is a misuse of the entire roster and I asked if any other MLB teams operates in such a manner, does anyone know and, if so, why do they do so?

 

Another variation on that is starting a Nunez type guy who can hit, and then at the manager's discretion, use Florimon as a late inning replacement after a late Nunez at bat. The defensive substitution that Kelly liked to do. Florimon could also be used as a late inning pinch runner though Gardy's judgment on how and when to use the PR is less than stellar.

[Brock Beauchamp]

A rally killer? Are you aware that last game, bottom of the 8th, Twins down 1. Florimon walks, steals second, then scores the tying run? Sounds like a gamer to me. The problem is, people look at stats, but they don't actually watch the games. People who watch the games would know that Florimon is playing with confidence and is battling at the plate, even if balls aren't missing gloves.

 

I'm sorry, but that is painting an absurdly rosy picture of the situation.

 

Florimon isn't missing gloves, his bat is missing the ball. 10 strikeouts in 35 PAs.

 

One does not attain a -30 OPS+ through bad luck. One attains a -30 OPS+ through bad play.

 

And don't accuse the rest of us of not watching games. That's incredibly bad form, especially when the facts are directly opposing your argument.

[Reider]

While I agree with the sentiment (that the Twins have too many empty hitters), Dozier doesn't belong anywhere in this conversation. He has been an above average hitter for a full season now.

Dozier is hitting below the mendoza line this year (.191). Those are not "above average" numbers.

[Reider]

I'm sorry, but that is painting an absurdly rosy picture of the situation.

 

Florimon isn't missing gloves, his bat is missing the ball. 10 strikeouts in 35 PAs.

 

One does not attain a -30 OPS+ through bad luck. One attains a -30 OPS+ through bad play.

 

And don't accuse the rest of us of not watching games. That's incredibly bad form, especially when the facts are directly opposing your argument.

If you want to talk about bad form and painting pictures, then at least admit that Florimon's poor numbers are due to both hitting gloves and too many strike outs. It's not one or the other, it's a combination of the two, lets just be honest with ourselves here.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Dozier is hitting below the mendoza line this year (.191). Those are not "above average" numbers.

 

His OPS+ is 125. His OBP is .328. His SLG is .468.

 

Batting average tells only a fragment of the story, which is why it should never be used in isolation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If you want to talk about bad form and painting pictures, then at least admit that Florimon's poor numbers are due to both hitting gloves and too many strike outs. It's a combination of the two, lets just be honest with ourselves here.

 

A fine argument if his OPS was around .500 or better. It's not.

 

His LD% is a meager 15%. He's not doing anything right at the plate except taking some walks.

[Dantes929]

"Is anyone else interested in seeing if BullDozier can remedy the shortstop situation? " Not until a guy like Rosario is the one to replace him at 2nd. Then I would be really interested.

[big dog]

Reference my earlier comment about pinch hitting for Florimon in the late innings - I said that is virtually impossible with thirteen pitchers on the roster. I think that is a misuse of the entire roster and I asked if any other MLB teams operates in such a manner, does anyone know and, if so, why do they do so?

 

The Twins are not alone in this. I checked two divisions in the AL. In the East, Toronto has 13 pitchers. In the Central, both Cleveland and the Twins do. So that's 3 out of 10. If you want to check the other 20 teams the rosters are available at mlb.com. I have no idea why they do it, other than their pitchers are struggling.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Actually Brock I wasn't aware of K-Flo's leadoff walk that inning til after the fact. Heck I wasn't even aware that during that 2-run rally the only batted ball the Twins put in play the whole inning was Herrmann's ground ball to the pitcher. I'm usually willing to look back and see who the leadoff guy was and give him some credit for getting a rally started.

 

I think Florimon's BB+SB in question doesn't buy any slack from his skeptics but it does buy some slack from the folks who appreciate his glove and tolerate his failings as a hitter (if you can call him that).

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think Florimon's BB+SB in question doesn't buy any slack from his skeptics but it does buy some slack from the folks who appreciate his glove and tolerate his failings as a hitter (if you can call him that).

 

Hey, it helped win the Twins a game. That's great.

 

But it requires some pretty thick blinders to point out that moment and ignore the 30 other times he has failed to get on base that potentially cost the Twins a game earlier in the season.

 

Pedro Florimon hasn't only been bad at the plate, he has been an embarrassment. So bad that he has made Drew Butera look like a competent hitter. There's just no way one can ignore that.