Berardino: Gardy's Comments on Attitude

[TheLeviathan]

Silly unwritten rules, imo. Jog around. Smiling and being happy should not make the other team mad. Not sure why it does, frankly. How, exactly, is it disrespectful to flip your bat? What actual harm is done?

 

Apparently millions of dollars aren't sufficient to assuage your ego because you made a mistake. You have to hit people with 90 mph objects to do that.

 

Or so I've been told thanks to the unwritten rules.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm glad to see that some personality is welcomed in the Twins locker room.

 

I don't know that I like the talk about a "line" that may or may not be toed though. A line is pretty subjective, who's in charge of setting the "line" that should not be crossed? And is that line consistant for all players or does it get moved depending on the players skill level or frequency of instances of "attitude"?

 

This is so salient.

 

Like Gardy or hate him, anyone who suggests his clubhouse rules/expectations have been consistent for all players is simply not dealing in reality. Over his tenure he has always shown a bias against young players and made their path more difficult. Not as bad as Kelly did, but from the same family of management.

 

Just from my experience, I think that's an awful quality in a manager and a tendency that does far more harm to morale than people realize.

[old nurse]

Garza, Lohse, Hardy and Gomez?

 

3/4 traded by Smith

[old nurse]

This is so salient.

 

Like Gardy or hate him, anyone who suggests his clubhouse rules/expectations have been consistent for all players is simply not dealing in reality. Over his tenure he has always shown a bias against young players and made their path more difficult. Not as bad as Kelly did, but from the same family of management.

 

Just from my experience, I think that's an awful quality in a manager and a tendency that does far more harm to morale than people realize.

 

In the world I don't recall ever seeing a workplace that did not have some people more equal than others.

The path may have been made more difficult, but not blocked nor hamstrung.

[Dman]

Apparently millions of dollars aren't sufficient to assuage your ego because you made a mistake. You have to hit people with 90 mph objects to do that.

 

Or so I've been told thanks to the unwritten rules.

 

Yeah I don't really understand the unwritten rules either. If someone could enlighten me that would be awesome.

[TheLeviathan]

In the world I don't recall ever seeing a workplace that did not have some people more equal than others.

The path may have been made more difficult, but not blocked nor hamstrung.

 

Some minimal level is probably impossible to avoid. Significant and consistent inequality? I've certainly seen that avoided. Gardy has entrenched a very inconsistent set of expectations on this team for a very long time. Kelly did too, especially in his latter years.

 

Gardy brings many positives things to the managerial role, but his consistency in treatment and his encouragement of unique personalities is not among them.

[h2oface]

Which ones got traded away?

 

jokin took care of the answer for me...... I just figured Twins' fans would know.

[Heimer]

Being cocky and having attitude are two different things. Imo cocky is another word for show boating. And showing attitude is getting mad when a pitcher hits a batter, or having a week long losing streak and telling your teammates it's unacceptable and throwing water coolers around

[Thrylos]

It may surprise some, but these Gardy comments don't surprise me at all. He's always managed with a fire and liked his players to show the same.

 

I don't know where you see the fire in Gardy Seth...

 

The last few seasons Gardy has been hanging off the top rail of the dugout with his arms down on a daily basis it seems. I see defeat in him and not fire. He used to have it at some point, but now, like his team, it seems that he lost it...

 

Maybe he does not like that any more. I hope that this is true and he and the team changes. Really I do.

 

You know the pose I am referring to:

 

http://tripleinthegap.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ron-gardenhire.jpg

[ashbury]

Yeah I don't really understand the unwritten rules either. If someone could enlighten me that would be awesome.

[Thrylos]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6651[/ATTACH]

 

Thus, from now on they should be referred to as "the rules formerly known as Unwritten"

[Seth Stohs]

I don't know where you see the fire in Gardy Seth...

 

The last few seasons Gardy has been hanging off the top rail of the dugout with his arms down on a daily basis it seems. I see defeat in him and not fire. He used to have it at some point, but now, like his team, it seems that he lost it...

 

Maybe he does not like that any more. I hope that this is true and he and the team changes. Really I do.

 

You know the pose I am referring to:

 

http://tripleinthegap.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ron-gardenhire.jpg

 

I'm not sure what how he sits and watches a game has to do with anything. When I say he has a fire, it has nothing to do with how he watches the game. I don't expect him to rant and rave and run around the dugout all game. And even this pitcher shows a manager that is closely watching something...

 

And yes, I think that this "fire" thing that so many want is vastly overrated. Joe Mauer would not be a better player if he played some other way. Tony Dungy would not have been a better coach if he had been another way. Tom Kelly didn't have some sort of irate fire. He was pretty calm in games.

 

Gardy has always backed his players, and as a player that's all you can hope for in a manager. Few know the game better than Gardy.

[Mike Sixel]

Wait, Gardy has always backed his players? Like when he constantly threw some under the bus publicly in the past, for things that don't matter? I like Gardy as a human, and I think he does something right in the clubhouse, otherwise they might not have won as much as they did. But to say he "always backed his players" is an exaggeration, imo. We all remember quotes about certain players being ripped publicly. Usually college educated or young players.

[TheLeviathan]

Wait, Gardy has always backed his players? Like when he constantly threw some under the bus publicly in the past, for things that don't matter? I like Gardy as a human, and I think he does something right in the clubhouse, otherwise they might not have won as much as they did. But to say he "always backed his players" is an exaggeration, imo. We all remember quotes about certain players being ripped publicly. Usually college educated or young players.

 

Yeah, I read that and had the same response.

 

The guy consistently beats up young player's for their mistakes in the press and gives passes to veterans. It's a major part of his inconsistent expectations. He's entitled to do it if that's what he feels will help. But it completely flies in the face of the notion that he has everyone's back.

[alskntwnsfn]

It's all context. You can show some attitude if you're a really good player or you play on a good team. It's like in football. Say a team is up by 21, and a DE hammers a back for a loss then showboats after the tackle, we all say "Go ahead and enjoy it, you're crushing them". But doing the same thing if you're down by 21 is a big no-no.

 

Gardy's probably just excited to have some players who can back up their attitude. Time will tell if they can do it in the show.

 

However, there's no way this coaching staff should NOT have been brought back after last year. Gardy continually ripped on players for mental mistakes but offered no examples of what the coaching staff was doing to fix the situation. And the hitting! When Tony Oliva has to call Colabello to tell him he's too far off the plate to cover the outer half of the plate, something is deeply wrong with your coaching staff. That shows that the staff was not going back to the tape to identify problems and fix them. I remember before the AS break seeing Justin hit, he was starting to keep his head more still, I said to my friend "watch, he's going to get hot" and he did for awhile. That's always been Justin's problem. These things are on the players as much as the coaches, they're grown men too who should know their bad habits better than anybody. But still... Tony O calling in hitting advice on a struggling hitter that was so obvious? I heard on the radio yesterday about how Bruno lost a lot of sleep because guys were striking out so much last year, maybe he should have used that time to watch some film or breakdown how opposing pitchers were attacking our hitters.

 

Questions I'd like to hear reporters ask this year:

 

"What types of things are you doing in spring training to improve the baserunning this year?"

"Do Twins hitters have the ability to view swings from their past (successful stretches) side by side with current footage, is that something that players/coaches review on a weekly or daily basis?"

"This year Target Field will be equipped with new technology allowing a much better understanding of batted balls and defensive outcomes. This data stream could be a big advantage since its only available in a few venues in 2014, which should give the Twins an advantage over other clubs in understanding their own players. Specifically, how will the coaching staff use this and Pitch f/x data to improve our club?"

[Boom Boom]

I don't know where you see the fire in Gardy Seth...

 

The last few seasons Gardy has been hanging off the top rail of the dugout with his arms down on a daily basis it seems. I see defeat in him and not fire. He used to have it at some point, but now, like his team, it seems that he lost it...

 

Maybe he does not like that any more. I hope that this is true and he and the team changes. Really I do.

 

I've seen that look on Gardy a lot. How many runs were the Twins down when that picture was taken?

 

I don't think Gardy has the patience to deal with young and inexperienced players anymore, if he ever had it to begin with. Now that he's got a contract extension and the Twins have lots of minor leaguers close to making the jump, he'll have to deal with them.

[Mike Sixel]

Apparently millions of dollars aren't sufficient to assuage your ego because you made a mistake. You have to hit people with 90 mph objects to do that.

 

Or so I've been told thanks to the unwritten rules.

 

 

I totally read this incorrectly the first time....that you were saying my ego was too big (missing the millionaire part).

[BHtwins]

I think fire and attitude and especially demeanor are over-rated. Which isnt to say that it does not matter, but that their not as important as most people think. Pete Rose didnt get 4000 hits because he sprinted out to his fielding position every inning. He did because he had the inate ability to hit major league pitching.

 

All those positive abstract qualities probably make some difference which should end up in the statistical record. Paraphrasing Bill James, it's not that they do not matter it's that they are impossible to quantify.

 

As it is though, Ill take a team full of Joe Mauer's and Stan Musials and beat the snot out of a team of Nick Puntos and AJ Pierszinkis

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Apparently millions of dollars aren't sufficient to assuage your ego because you made a mistake. You have to hit people with 90 mph objects to do that.

 

Don't settle for anything less than a million, Mike. Don't let him do that to you. :-)

[TheLeviathan]

I totally read this incorrectly the first time....that you were saying my ego was too big (missing the millionaire part).

 

 

Ha! Yeah, not "you" as in you. But "you" as in "whiney baseball players who hide behind unwritten rules".

[Willihammer]

As crazy as it sounds players aren't just exorcising their demons out there. If a hitter showboats after a HR, specifically after a HR on a pitch to the outer half of the plate, what that tells the pitcher is that he's too comfortable up there and needs to be brushed back in order to re-claim the outer half. Its about the mental game within the game, not about whining

[Riverbrian]

I have no idea what is happening in the clubhouse. I just know what I saw in 2013 on the field.

 

In 2013... I don't believe that Twins fans got full value of the tickets they purchased. I don't believe they got 100% from all members of the squad and 100% should be implied in the price of the ticket. Make a play... You are good enough to make the majors... You are good enough to make a play!!!

 

2013 was non aggressive base running... get out of the way of the turning double play... station to station baseball.

 

2013 was make the routine defensive play and that's it!!! Apart from 2B and SS... I have no complaints watching Florimon and Dozier do what they did with the glove and arm.

 

2013 was Non Focused unprepared for the pitcher tendencies plate appearances... Hitting the pitchers pitch instead of your pitch... Throwing away at bats and walking back to the dugout wondering what happened.

 

I have no idea what is happening in the dugout but I assume based on the lolligagging nature of what I watched in 2013. Tude needs to be addressed. Go get em Gardy.

 

If the Tude gets better... The Stats get better and the Wins get better. If the Tude doesn't get better. Get new players.

[Dman]

As crazy as it sounds players aren't just exorcising their demons out there. If a hitter showboats after a HR, specifically after a HR on a pitch to the outer half of the plate, what that tells the pitcher is that he's too comfortable up there and needs to be brushed back in order to re-claim the outer half. Its about the mental game within the game, not about whining

 

Yeah I agree with that. I think that is more what this thread should be about. I think people are looking at passion and leadership and confusing them with the mental game that goes on in each players head.

 

Most athletes agree that confidence plays a key role in success. When you believe you are going to hit a home run it is more likely that you are going to hit a home run. If you believe you are going to hit a home run and strike out the next 10 times your confidence is going to go down and create doubt about hitting a home run the next time. The next time up you might not be aggressive at the plate. You might be afraid to strike out and just want to make contact. you might be afraid to swing at certain pitches. You might swing frantically at any pitch in an effort to just get a hit.

 

The psychology of a hitter is tough. You are considered successful if you make an out two thirds of the time (66%). You are considered marginally successful when you make an out 75% of the time. You are considered worthy of replacement when you make an out 80% of the time or more. There is 10% window you have to fit in to make it. Not much room for slumps in there.

 

If I had to guess the problem with many guys batting in the 200 range is that they are thinking too hard when they are up there instead of just reacting. They have lost confidence in their ability. No amount of leadership or passion can save them from themselves as they lose confidence and become their own worst enemy. You can work on mechanics and try to remove the demons but each player has to find there way to what works for them. What works for one guy doesn't for another.

 

I think that is why managers are always saying we need to have fun out there etc. Always trying to keep players loose so that don't think too much. I think that is why managers continue to put guys out there that are struggling to try and help them re-gain their confidence. The mental game of baseball is very interesting.

[JB_Iowa]

Interesting that A.J. was the Twins' first choice for a catcher.

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/

 

“There’s no doubt A.J. was our No. 1 target going into the offseason,” Antony told the Pioneer Press. “He brings a lot to the table. He’s got a lot of intangibles. He’s got a little bit of that fire, that attitude that we thought would be a good thing in this clubhouse.

 

“We’ve got a lot of good guys. Sometimes it’s good to have somebody that will speak their mind and go out there. Plus, I think he can still hit. He’s still got some power. So there’s no question about that.”

[TheLeviathan]

Interesting that A.J. was the Twins' first choice for a catcher.

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/

 

“There’s no doubt A.J. was our No. 1 target going into the offseason,” Antony told the Pioneer Press. “He brings a lot to the table. He’s got a lot of intangibles. He’s got a little bit of that fire, that attitude that we thought would be a good thing in this clubhouse.

 

“We’ve got a lot of good guys. Sometimes it’s good to have somebody that will speak their mind and go out there. Plus, I think he can still hit. He’s still got some power. So there’s no question about that.”

 

Well, the Twins sure seem to think a diversity of personalities is a good thing.

[ashbury]

I have no idea what is happening in the dugout but I assume based on the lolligagging nature of what I watched in 2013. Tude needs to be addressed.

 

Approves:

[video=youtube;glpsy01TalU]

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't know where you see the fire in Gardy Seth...

 

The last few seasons Gardy has been hanging off the top rail of the dugout with his arms down on a daily basis it seems. I see defeat in him and not fire. He used to have it at some point, but now, like his team, it seems that he lost it...

 

Maybe he does not like that any more. I hope that this is true and he and the team changes. Really I do.

 

You know the pose I am referring to:

 

http://tripleinthegap.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ron-gardenhire.jpg

 

It seems to me that attitude is largely a perception based argument and not necessarily a reality. I'm not a fan of Gardy just to be clear, but I'm not sure any of us can reasonably argue that Gardy does or does not have attitude. You post this picture, but this is a slice in time for an attitude that will be observed from Gardy from time to time.... Of course this is the same manager who has consistently been at the top of the league in ejections, which to me says the opposite of what you are saying.

 

Willihammer posted 3 pictures earlier in this thread. One showed Gardy livid during a game where the Twins held a comfortable 6-0 lead. The other showed him having a nice chat during a 20-5 blowout of the Twins. He didn't comment on this, but I cannot help but notice that his attitude in each of those pictures was opposite of what some of us would "expect". I've seen plenty of shots where he's livid in a loss and pretty laid back in a win... or even a close game for that matter. While I don't want to put words in Willihammers mouth, I have to say that to me this enforces a very simple principle... attitude is a perception.

 

If you want to judge Gardy, it should be by his results. Personally, I think Levi hit the nail on the head here with his inconsistency towards rookies.... that's just me though.

[Willihammer]

Of course this is the same manager who has consistently been at the top of the league in ejections, which to me says the opposite of what you are saying.

 

I agree with your conclusion but I share Thrylos' perception. I probably should have clarified that earlier. Even when Gardy makes up his mind to get ejected, and does his ejection routine, I feel like everyone in the building rolls their eyes and says "here we go again." I doubt the players see it any differently, because even though he gets ejected all the time his players' fire has been questioned for seems like his entire tenure. Whatever Gardy thinks he's selling, nobody seems to be buying. After all these years he just looks sort of desperate and even defeated sometimes. JMO

[thetank]

When you are 30 games under .500 3 years in a row you aren't going to get that exhilarated.

[Thrylos]

When you are 30 games under .500 3 years in a row you aren't going to get that exhilarated.

 

When you are 30 games under .500 3 years in a row you should resign instead of being re-signed...