5 for 20

[jokin]

Yeah, I hate the Pohlads but if they wanted to sell, they just as likely find a rich owner that would keep the team in MN. And other teams have territorial rights that make moves that much harder to do. So yeah, the Twins will still be in MN in 2025 even if they have losing seasons every year.

 

How did those territorial rights go for Baltimore when the Nats moved in?

[Badsmerf]

After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization.

 

Is this a bit? Terry Ryan has been the GM of the Twins since 1995. Gardenhire has been the Manager since 2002 with Rick Anderson his pitching coach. Lets see how they have done.

 

Ryan: 9 losing seasons as a GM (and counting), 6 winning seasons, 4 playoff berths, 1 playoff series win. After an 8 year stretch of competitive baseball (which he was only the GM for 5) the Twins have been a bottom dweller for 3 straight years with no indication of this changing for next year. Tried and true? Maybe 5 years ago you could say that, not today.

 

Gardenhire: 8 winning seasons, 4 losing seasons. 6 playoff births, 1 series win. Lost last 6 playoff series, with the last 3 series being swept. You can argue Gardy has been a pretty good manager during the regular season. He has done pretty well with what he has been given, but has bombed in the playoffs... even when he had pretty talented teams. I'm not a huge fan of Gardy, but I also don't think all this losing is on him (the playoffs, however, are).

 

Anderson: Looking at combined stats for the pitching staff for his entire career and the Twins are pretty much average in everything. I'm not sure how else to evaluate him as a coach otherwise. His notable trait is not pitching for strikeouts and avoiding walks. Guys with good movement can excel with this approach (like Santana), guys that don't have much stuff can struggle (like Hendriks).

[gunnarthor]

How did those territorial rights go for Baltimore when the Nats moved in?

 

Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.

Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun

Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles

 

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

[gunnarthor]

Is this a bit? Terry Ryan has been the GM of the Twins since 1995. Gardenhire has been the Manager since 2002 with Rick Anderson his pitching coach. Lets see how they have done.

 

The problem with a quick look like this is it doesn't really tell the whole story. The mid and late 90s Twins had significant payroll problems that factored deeply into their problems. And I think it's also fair to say that people - GMs, managers, lawyers etc - improve. So if Terry Ryan was or wasn't a good GM in 1996 isn't particularly relevant to whether or not he's a good GM now. We have seen that Ryan was the only small market GM in baseball that was able to change his teams nucleus of players on the fly and still make the playoffs. That's pretty impressive. And since he's come back he's made a number of strong trades so it doesn't seem like he's a confused old grandfather walking around.

 

He has shown the ability to rebuild a losing team and keep it good on a small budget. He's still doing things like that.

[jokin]

Twins have a more loyal fanbase than Cleveland - we actually out drew them this year. Red Sox dropped some bad contracts but still had significant $$ to throw out and had players returning from injuries. The Twins problems weren't the same.

 

IIRC, Cleveland's former GM Shapiro (who had a great run) was promoted to President after the 09 season. Chris Antonetti (who had been Shapiro's second in command) took over. And they've had the same owner since 2000. So not really a change in ownership or new ways of thinking. Just building up from a farm system and trades.

 

You left out the fact that Shapiro lured Terry Francona to Cleveland. And he linked his contract with Francona's. If one goes, they all go, giving him huge new leverage in changing the dyanamic and commitment to winning now in Cleveland. This was reflected in the vast retooling of the team over the winter, as documented by Seth Stohs in his article from this morning.

 

Here's a good quote from what actually went down last October:

 

Why would the Dolan family agree to include such a provision -- let's call it the "Three Musketeers Clause" -- in Francona's contract?

Because he's Terry Francona!

He's the embodiment of everything the Indians, and their managers haven't been for most of the last 10 years: big winners, big spenders, big names.

 

At this particular juncture in both their histories, the Indians need Terry Francona more than he needs them. He brings instant credibility, relevancy and leadership to a franchise desperate for all three.

 

Oh for the Twins ownership to do something similar to shake up this sclerotic franchise.

[jokin]

Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.

Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun

Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles

 

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

 

OK City has been a fabulous success for the NBA. San Antonio would be a great market for MLB, as would Charlotte, Nashville or Vancouver. They are all growing much faster than the Twin Cities, and with better demographics.

[jokin]

The problem with a quick look like this is it doesn't really tell the whole story. The mid and late 90s Twins had significant payroll problems that factored deeply into their problems. And I think it's also fair to say that people - GMs, managers, lawyers etc - improve. So if Terry Ryan was or wasn't a good GM in 1996 isn't particularly relevant to whether or not he's a good GM now. We have seen that Ryan was the only small market GM in baseball that was able to change his teams nucleus of players on the fly and still make the playoffs. That's pretty impressive. And since he's come back he's made a number of strong trades so it doesn't seem like he's a confused old grandfather walking around.

 

He has shown the ability to rebuild a losing team and keep it good on a small budget. He's still doing things like that.

 

I don't recall the number of good trades he's made. One, was baked in the cake from 2010 (Span), and the only other one I can think that fits your parameters came out of the blue unexpectedly from the Phillies, and it's fair to say that the jury has yet to determine that it can be classified as a strong trade in the Twins favor. (And you certainly can't be calling the trades of Liriano, Morneau and Carroll as strong trades).

[jokin]

Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.

Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun

Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles

 

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

 

And yet the move still happened.

[gunnarthor]

And yet the move still happened.

 

There's a pro team in Tulsa?

[Steve Penz]

I have a bet rolling with a buddy. It is for dinner. At 68 wins or less he wins, at 69 its a push and at 70 I win. For the sake of filling my belly with a Blucy and some tator tots from the Blue Door I really hope they go 4-0. 2 weeks ago I appeared to be in good shape for this bet. I think I will be going hungry.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Really we just need to abandon this whole "Twins Way" deal. I can't stand it and believe the opposite of all of it. HRs and power trump small ball and defense, strikeouts over PtC, and the no Platoon policy discussed on the other page.

[Thrylos]

I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson.

 

This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.

 

Agreed with a couple of exceptions:

 

Subtract Brad Steil (he has already in a year started undoing the mess that Rantz has done in 50)

Add Deron Johnson and Vern Followell & Vavry & Scotty & Co

[Thrylos]

Ryan hate is ridiculous. He's a great GM, proven and has already made significant strides forward on the rebuild.

 

The only thing that Ryan has proven is to lead teams to worse records that his predecessors, twice. The MacPhail Twins had better record than the Ryan I Twins and the Smith (speaking about hate) Twins had better record than the Ryan II Twins. And this is an undisputed fact. Add the other fact of zero american league pennants and zero world series rings in way too many years of being a GM, and you got the whole of Ryan's tenure: awfulness to mediocrity to awfulness.

 

One can spin the truth any way he/she wants, but it does not change it. And if some wish to strive for and celebrate mediocrity, it is fine. Some of us want excellence. And Ryan has proven to not be capable of that.

[Winston Smith]

FYI:

The Twins signed a 30-year ironclad lease with the Minnesota Ballpark Authority during the summer of 2007.

[glunn]

One can spin the truth any way he/she wants, but it does not change it. And if some wish to strive for and celebrate mediocrity, it is fine. Some of us want excellence. And Ryan has proven to not be capable of that.

 

Moderator note -- this is borderline trolling. Please be more respectful of people who disagree with you.

[jokin]

FYI:

The Twins signed a 30-year ironclad lease with the Minnesota Ballpark Authority during the summer of 2007.

 

Historically, 30 year leases aren't worth the iron they're clad with, if the majority of the owners accede to a potential move to take place.

[DaveW]

This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

 

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

 

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

 

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc

[DaveW]

Additionally, the twins have very little commited money wise in 2014/2015, and have the best farm in baseball. It's not hard to see why a turnaround isn't going to be as hard as some folks believe, hell before Mauer went down (and morneau trade) it's likely the twins would have won 72-74 games this year,(an improvement over last)

[BHtwins]

I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

 

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

 

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

 

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. One thing that bothers me is Gardenhire's relationship with Aaron Hicks, after the Twins basically handed him the CF job. It's inexcusable instead of harnessing that confidence and coachability he publicly put him down at every opportunity for not being "old school" enough. A guy like Gardy needs to adjust to what the "kids these days" are like. Bottom line is Gardy may have been great with a group of veterans, give him his due, but (among other things) he's not a guy who has demonstrated patience with prospects.

[Shane Wahl]

Agreed with a couple of exceptions:

 

Subtract Brad Steil (he has already in a year started undoing the mess that Rantz has done in 50)

Add Deron Johnson and Vern Followell & Vavry & Scotty & Co

 

Fair enough about Steil. I don't like adding Deron Johnson to the list because I don't think he has done a bad job at all. I don't recall who Followell is at the moment and the other two were givens!

[howieramone1406390264]

I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

 

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

 

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

 

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up.

But they were competitive long term and 3 years of drafting high and they will be competitive again.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Historically, 30 year leases aren't worth the iron they're clad with, if the majority of the owners accede to a potential move to take place.

 

Local history itself shows this is not always the case.

[jokin]

TR wasn't GM in 2011.

 

Actually, he was the GM in 2011, becoming the new GM on Nov. 7, 2011.

[jokin]

This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

 

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

 

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

 

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc

 

 

The posters on Twins Daily have proffered close to a dozen high-quality names, both of the old school variety and the young and hungry up-and-comers whose pedigree and bona fides match or exceed Gardy's. The main point being, staleness and expired shelf life are a reality, and what was once a great fit no longer appears to be the case........

 

for a myriad of reasons it's time to clear the air and prepare with a fresh approach for the next wave of players.

[jokin]

Local history itself shows this is not always the case.

 

Let's see how it plays out. We have an owner who is far more passionate about winning and hoisting trophies and champagne bottles at the Cannes Film Festival than doing the same after a World Series championship. The owner's close friend, the Commissioner of Baseball, has announced his retirement in January, 2015. The timing for a sale most favorable to the Pohlad's may be more opportune under Selig's watch than after.

 

The Upper Midwest would be such an incredible market with a committed owner and forward-thinking management, a "St Louis North", if you will. I think it's reasonable not to trust that we can get that outcome with the former used car dealer as Commissioner, in conjunction with the Hollywood-producer son of the mortgage-forecloser, making that decision.

[Jerr]

This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

 

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

 

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

 

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc

 

Well stated and brought this thread back to the subject. Thanks!

[ashbury]

I don't recall who Followell is at the moment

 

Vern Followell only has the most awesome name for a Pro Scouting Coordinator I could ever hope to encounter, unless there exists a Sign M. McAllstar.

[jokin]

 

This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

 

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

 

 

 

 

 

Well stated and brought this thread back to the subject. Thanks!

 

The topic is the dreadful state of the Twins. There is blame to share all around for this ongoing 3- and soon-to-be 4-year disaster. And there are consequences for this incredible ineptitude, from ownership on down to the bullpen coach. The ramifications for this disaster on the future of the Twins franchise are also germane to the topic. The owner has demonstrated his disinterest in the team, other than in terms of a vehicle to make a very decent high return with low-risk on his investment. Their first instinct during the 2011 debacle was to make it known that they would be aggressively shedding payroll and dismantling a team that had had the 4th best record in baseball and record-setting attendance just one year before. No one said the Twins are on "the chopping block", they've used that tactic once before, been there, done that. But there is a very real possibility that the Twins could be sold; from the beginning of their ownership tenure, it has been documented that the junior Pohlad's would rather be involved in almost anything other than baseball. Their disinterest has resulted in a sclerotic and insular organization, that essentially runs dangerously on a set of outmoded auto-pilot rules thought-up in a manual written 20 years ago.

 

Miami, Tampa and Oakland are the beneficiaries of revenue-sharing, different animals from the Twins altogether, just because those issues need addressing, it is irrelevant to what the Pohlad's might opt to do with their franchise. I'm guessing that Pohlad has learned to not appreciate being, literally, on the other side of the coin, in having to write checks to support the have-nots, instead of being the past beneficiary of those subsidies. It really isn't that hard to envision a sale of the team if the number-crunchers say it's the most logical course of action. And with their close ally, Commisioner Selig, retiring in 2015, the Pohlad's might decide their best deal could be had with Selig still in charge. A succesor out-of-town ownership group is a problematic proposition, to say the least.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

 

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

 

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

 

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up.

 

No votes for Bobby Cuellar?