It's Time for the Twins to Promote Alan Roden

[jmlease1]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I love the idea but where exactly are we playing him?  Fedko may or may not have been superglued to the bench somewhere and we forgot him on the road trip.

This team needs to dump Larnach or Bell at the deadline or Roden is going to hit twice a week and not be able to get enough consistency for it to matter.

This is the basic problem with the Bell signing in the first place: it really reduces the roster spot availability for the bats that are the most ready in AAA. Without Bell, Larnach DH's much more and there's playing time available in the OF for Roden (or Mendez, or GG, or Jenkins, or E-Rod, etc). It was the biggest issue against keeping Larnach (which I was against; clearly I was wrong) or signing Bell (I was ok with...but I also wanted Larnach gone, so in my formulation the roster spot would have been available. Probably wrong on that one as well).

Going into the season the Twins clearly favored keeping/adding veterans over turning over more roles to inexperienced players. It's mostly worked out...for now. But there's little chance Larnach is with the Twins in 2027; he'll be in line for a bump to $8M+ in arbitration I would think and how is this team going to pay that for a platoon-ish corner OF/DH who is merely ok defensively and adds little else? Bell won't be back either, especially with Royce fitting in at 1B. But Larnach is hitting very well and they need that production, and Bell is on one of his hot streaks and mashing away. If we were 10 games back of the division/WC they'd be easy sell candidates...and might even bring things back of real value, not just A-ball lottery tickets. But selling to open things up for an unproven Roden is a lot harder when the team is only 4 games back of the division (which isn't much) and 1.5 in the WC with only other 1 team ahead of them (a team the Twins just took 2 of 3 from on the road).

I think you still move Roden up, but unless Buck goes on the IL it'll be hard to find a lot of ABs for him, which isn't great. But I'd much rather have Roden in CF than Kreidler, who I would prefer take all the SS innings and sit Gray down until Culpepper is ready.

There's a lot of CW in what I'm saying, and little of it new. So what's holding up the Twins front office? What don't we know?

[Possumlad]

29 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

This is the basic problem with the Bell signing in the first place: it really reduces the roster spot availability for the bats that are the most ready in AAA. Without Bell, Larnach DH's much more and there's playing time available in the OF for Roden (or Mendez, or GG, or Jenkins, or E-Rod, etc). It was the biggest issue against keeping Larnach (which I was against; clearly I was wrong) or signing Bell (I was ok with...but I also wanted Larnach gone, so in my formulation the roster spot would have been available. Probably wrong on that one as well).

Going into the season the Twins clearly favored keeping/adding veterans over turning over more roles to inexperienced players. It's mostly worked out...for now. But there's little chance Larnach is with the Twins in 2027; he'll be in line for a bump to $8M+ in arbitration I would think and how is this team going to pay that for a platoon-ish corner OF/DH who is merely ok defensively and adds little else? Bell won't be back either, especially with Royce fitting in at 1B. But Larnach is hitting very well and they need that production, and Bell is on one of his hot streaks and mashing away. If we were 10 games back of the division/WC they'd be easy sell candidates...and might even bring things back of real value, not just A-ball lottery tickets. But selling to open things up for an unproven Roden is a lot harder when the team is only 4 games back of the division (which isn't much) and 1.5 in the WC with only other 1 team ahead of them (a team the Twins just took 2 of 3 from on the road).

I think you still move Roden up, but unless Buck goes on the IL it'll be hard to find a lot of ABs for him, which isn't great. But I'd much rather have Roden in CF than Kreidler, who I would prefer take all the SS innings and sit Gray down until Culpepper is ready.

There's a lot of CW in what I'm saying, and little of it new. So what's holding up the Twins front office? What don't we know?

Roster logjams tend to work themselves out. Some combo of the IL + Trade deadline will give Roden an opportunity soon.

[thelanges5]

1 hour ago, CRF said:

Dump Gray and get Roden up here. 

💯 Gray down, Roden up to play CF, Kreidler plays SS. 

[LA Vikes Fan]

2 hours ago, Jack207 said:

They need to replace Fedko with Roden.

I would agree but them who does Jeffers replace when he's ready to go, hopefully today. Jackson is out of options and will be claimed on waivers because of the real dearth of catching available as injury replacements (and there's always injured catchers) and because he's playing well. I think the plan all along has been to replace Fedko with Jeffers and keep 3 catchers until Jeffers is traded. 

I really think that Roden needs to come up and it should be now. There's only 3 choices that I see to make that happen. First, IL Buxton. Bad choice unless you're sure he can't help us against Cleveland. Famous last words, but we shouldn't need him against the Angels so if he can't play by Thursday put him on a 10 day Il and use next week at 4 of the 10 days. That means he doesn't get to play in the AS game though so he isn't going to like that idea. Second, replace Fedko and Martin with  Roden and Jeffers, Another bad choice. Martin is starting to play well again and makes a very good natural platoon with Larnach in left. Don't do this to force Roden onto the roster. If this is the only choice, Roden waits.  

Best choice is to option Gray (he has one left) for Roden. It's risky because now you have no utility IF if someone gets hurt or needs a day. If someone gets hurt, your only option is to move Lewis to the open spot if it's 2B or 3B, with Bell at 1B, or Lewis to 3B if you need a SS and Lee goes back to SS, also with Bell at 1B. Defensively pretty ugly. Still, the best choice available to get Roden up now. 

I suspect that unless there's an injury Roden is going to have to wait until Jeffers is traded to create a spot to come up. If Buxton can't go in CF this week, then maybe you option Fedko and Gray for Jeffers and Roden if Jeffers is ready, Roden for Fedko if Jeffers needs another couple of days and then Jeffers for Gray. I don't see why Jeffers needs more time though so to me the choice is Gray or Roden. I would pick Roden, but I get why they may want to stick with Gray , Arcia, or Ross, to have some kind of a utility IF on the roster. I love Bell as a hitter but this is what happens when you have a full time DH. 

[D.C Twins]

49 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Actually... Outman is currently the starting CF in Detroit. He has started the past 10 games. Including 1 game against a Left Handed Pitcher. Somebody by the name of Malgeri appears to playing that role for the Tigers. 

Outman is still not hitting the ball but playing every day. Outman's tool gives him multiple chances to become what everyone seems to think he can become. The Dodgers didn't take him off the 40 man, The Twins traded for him. The Tigers scooped him up. He didn't clear waivers. Multiple front offices see value in Outman despite no performance. 

With Roden... I'm ok with calling him up as long as he gets some playing time.

He can have Fedko's roster spot.  

Good for Detroit... win/win... we get rid of him AND he hurts a team in our division on a daily basis!

[rdehring]

1 hour ago, EGFTShaw said:

Poll asks: "Which team do you dislike the most in the AL Central?"
The Yankees. 😄

Reminds me of a time when my son was going to school in Boston and the Patriots won, I believe their first Super Bowl.  They had a big parade and as the team was nearing the end, a large group of fans broke out chanting, "Yankees suck!"

[rdehring]

32 minutes ago, LA Vikes Fan said:

I would agree but them who does Jeffers replace when he's ready to go, hopefully today. Jackson is out of options and will be claimed on waivers because of the real dearth of catching available as injury replacements (and there's always injured catchers) and because he's playing well. I think the plan all along has been to replace Fedko with Jeffers and keep 3 catchers until Jeffers is traded. 

I really think that Roden needs to come up and it should be now. There's only 3 choices that I see to make that happen. First, IL Buxton. Bad choice unless you're sure he can't help us against Cleveland. Famous last words, but we shouldn't need him against the Angels so if he can't play by Thursday put him on a 10 day Il and use next week at 4 of the 10 days. That means he doesn't get to play in the AS game though so he isn't going to like that idea. Second, replace Fedko and Martin with  Roden and Jeffers, Another bad choice. Martin is starting to play well again and makes a very good natural platoon with Larnach in left. Don't do this to force Roden onto the roster. If this is the only choice, Roden waits.  

Best choice is to option Gray (he has one left) for Roden. It's risky because now you have no utility IF if someone gets hurt or needs a day. If someone gets hurt, your only option is to move Lewis to the open spot if it's 2B or 3B, with Bell at 1B, or Lewis to 3B if you need a SS and Lee goes back to SS, also with Bell at 1B. Defensively pretty ugly. Still, the best choice available to get Roden up now. 

I suspect that unless there's an injury Roden is going to have to wait until Jeffers is traded to create a spot to come up. If Buxton can't go in CF this week, then maybe you option Fedko and Gray for Jeffers and Roden if Jeffers is ready, Roden for Fedko if Jeffers needs another couple of days and then Jeffers for Gray. I don't see why Jeffers needs more time though so to me the choice is Gray or Roden. I would pick Roden, but I get why they may want to stick with Gray , Arcia, or Ross, to have some kind of a utility IF on the roster. I love Bell as a hitter but this is what happens when you have a full time DH. 

Totally agree with your take on the situation.  You missed one player who could fill in at second should an injury occur, Keaschall.  Yes, I love how he looks in the outfield, but in an emergency he would offer a better option than not bringing Roden up tomorrow.

[Riverbrian]

7 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

Good for Detroit... win/win... we get rid of him AND he hurts a team in our division on a daily basis!

Yeah... I'm fine with the Tigers struggling. 

Outman isn't the Tigers biggest problem. Vierling, McKinstry and Jahmai Jones are the bigger problems. They have been performing at an Outman level all season and the Tigers are going to give Outman a run. 

Injuries to Baez, Meadows and Perez isn't helping but it's not like those three players were gold standard either. 

Here's the thing about the 26 man roster. If you get placed on the 26 man roster. You are an injury away from being counted on and injuries are coming... they are always coming. 

You can't keep them in the dark because they won't get used to the light and the limelight is just an injury away. 

Picking a starting 9 only works if everyone stays healthy and performs to the expectation expected of them. This never happens. 

The Twins have been for the most part healthy compared to most teams. The Twins roster has been pretty static this year but fluid is coming. Bet on it. Are you throwing Fedko in cold to replace Buxton? Are we going to stick Martin in CF every day with his Low OPS. Are you throwing Roden on to the 26 man and into the lineup to replace Buxton? Will we be patient with Roden if he doesn't hit the ground running? We all talk about the jump from AAA to the majors being a difficult transition. Will Roden be allowed to transition? 

Outman wasn't and perhaps rightfully so. Fedko isn't and perhaps rightfully so. It's July and these two players are just wasted months of prep time for someone who can help us now and in the future.  

 

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Actually... Outman is currently the starting CF in Detroit. He has started the past 10 games. Including 1 game against a Left Handed Pitcher. Somebody by the name of Malgeri appears to playing that role for the Tigers. 

Outman is still not hitting the ball but playing every day. Outman's tool gives him multiple chances to become what everyone seems to think he can become. The Dodgers didn't take him off the 40 man, The Twins traded for him. The Tigers scooped him up. He didn't clear waivers. Multiple front offices see value in Outman despite no performance. 

With Roden... I'm ok with calling him up as long as he gets some playing time.

He can have Fedko's roster spot.  

Yes, Outman moved quickly from pickup 13th guy to starting. Detroit has some issues too. I was focused more on the topic, Roden. 

I'm not opposed to calling up Roden (As a side note it is interesting that Roden has picked up a ton of fans on Twins Daily) to replace Fedko. If Roden is called up and takes Feko's place, he doesn't get much playing time. So there is that. Additionally Fedko is a better baserunner and glove although the difference is small enough to ignore, maybe. Inexperienced players almost always struggle in a role where they sit after always having been everyday players. 

[tony&rodney]

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Yeah... I'm fine with the Tigers struggling. 

Outman isn't the Tigers biggest problem. Vierling, McKinstry and Jahmai Jones are the bigger problems. They have been performing at an Outman level all season and the Tigers are going to give Outman a run. 

Injuries to Baez, Meadows and Perez isn't helping but it's not like those three players were gold standard either. 

Here's the thing about the 26 man roster. If you get placed on the 26 man roster. You are an injury away from being counted on and injuries are coming... they are always coming. 

You can't keep them in the dark because they won't get used to the light and the limelight is just an injury away. 

Picking a starting 9 only works if everyone stays healthy and performs to the expectation expected of them. This never happens. 

The Twins have been for the most part healthy compared to most teams. The Twins roster has been pretty static this year but fluid is coming. Bet on it. Are you throwing Fedko in cold to replace Buxton? Are we going to stick Martin in CF every day with his Low OPS. Are you throwing Roden on to the 26 man and into the lineup to replace Buxton? Will we be patient with Roden if he doesn't hit the ground running? We all talk about the jump from AAA to the majors being a difficult transition. Will Roden be allowed to transition? 

Outman wasn't and perhaps rightfully so. Fedko isn't and perhaps rightfully so. It's July and these two players are just wasted months of prep time for someone who can help us now and in the future.  

 

 

Yes, it is a tough spot. Best case scenario, everyone is used quite a bit. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Jenkins first!  We have an abundance of OF options in the minors - thats what made Outman such a bad decision.  Gray, Martin, Fedko can all be replaced. 

Sure, but this team is keeping him down until he can be a rookie next year. It's always about a future that never comes with this ownership. 

[tony&rodney]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Sure, but this team is keeping him down until he can be a rookie next year. It's always about a future that never comes with this ownership. 

My guess is we see Walker Jenkins play for the Twins this season .... unless he is injured.

[Mike Sixel]

51 minutes ago, Possumlad said:

Roster logjams tend to work themselves out. Some combo of the IL + Trade deadline will give Roden an opportunity soon.

We're more than half way thru the season, and they haven't. This team loves veterans.

[Andy MacPhail]

For a team that have had a glut of LH hitting OFers glut for years, I didn't understand why trading for Roden & Outman. So, bringing up Rodon to prove himself makes the most sense. Selling before the deadline can be difficult but a MLB/ MLB player trade can be done anytime to fill needs. We can trade from our MLB LH hitting OF glut for a high-leverage RP need now. IF we somehow bomb & drop out of the wild card race, we can still sell that RP for a good profit.

[Possumlad]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

We're more than half way thru the season, and they haven't. This team loves veterans.

They're playing the vets who have earned it. Outman's gone, Wallner got sent down, Martin's been pushed more in to spot time. 

[TJSweens]

Roden vs Jenkins

My take is that both are hitting well in AAA, but only one has reached the point where he is not going to get any better in AAA and that's Roden. Jenkins IMO has more levels he can unlock in AAA. Roden has roughly twice as many AB at AAA and he pretty much is what he is. The only thing remaining is to see if it translates to the majors. 

Given his status as a prospect, I expect Jenkins to make more strides and put up even bigger numbers than he has as his maturity catches up to the level of ball he is playing. I don't want to see Jenkins match Roden at AAA. I want to see him tear the league apart.

[Western SD Fan]

7 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

Good for Detroit... win/win... we get rid of him AND he hurts a team in our division on a daily basis!

I would also like to add that Outman has taken his defensive chops to Detroit as well.  The last Tigers game I watched, he took a bad route and let a ball get over his head.

This would be my arguments for Roden promoted over Jenkins at this current moment:

Roden is on the 40-man. Jenkins is not.  This plays out in multiple ways, the least of which is that the Twins would have to make a roster move to DFA someone.  There is enough chaff on the 40-man that they could DFA someone today and make room for him if you needed him.  It matters more in roster construction after the season.  I took this off of Copilot (results may vary), but it doesn't sound like that the Twins need to add him to the 40-man in November to protect him from the Rule-5 draft.  If there is a labor stoppage, he could still report to spring training and the minors since he is not on the 40-man roster and could be promoted as soon as baseball resumes.  The MLBPA is making a hard push to change the number of years before arbitration or free agency, and I wouldn't want the best prospect to lose a year of that due to some crazy grandfather rules or adjustment to the arbitration rules.  I'd rather the Twins go into this with their eyes wide open, as they have been shut for most of the past 3-5 years.

Rule 5 Draft context (taken from Copilot)

Players signed at age 18 or younger must be on the 40-man roster within five seasons; those signed at 19+ must be protected within four years.

Jenkins is 21, so he’s not in immediate Rule 5 risk, but if Minnesota doesn’t add him to the 40-man list before the 2027 deadline, he could become eligible for the Rule 5 Draft

While Roden is touted as a great OF, he is not considered the backbone of the future like Jenkins is.  Both have injury history.  If I'm going to sacrifice somebody to the rigors of MLB vs AAA, I'd rather it would be Roden.  I want Jenkins to prove that he can stay healthier longer than a Klondike bar can stay frozen in a corn field during a hot Southern Minnesota day before I trust to start his clock.  Jenkins probably would have been up here already had he not been injured.

As for current roster construction, you can bring Roden up right now.  Since roster construction typically works itself out, we now do not have enough LHB to fill out a platoon whereas at the beginning of the season, we had too many options.  Roden could come in for Fedko and Jeffers would take Gray's spot.  If Kreidler did get hurt, Arcia or Gray would be a train ride away and you could fill in-game issues with Lee, Lewis, Caratini, and Bell.  This arrangement is likely only for a few weeks if you expect Jeffers to be traded by the deadline.

We need Roden for more immediate help.  That doesn't mean that Jenkins isn't ready as he likely is.  There is more to a roster than just saying that the player is ready.  Until the economics change in baseball, the Twins have to do shrewd moves like this to keep their players in-house and cheap for as long as they can.  Ultimately, that is why Jenkins will need to stay in the minors at least until 2027.

 

[Riverbrian]

26 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Yes, Outman moved quickly from pickup 13th guy to starting. Detroit has some issues too. I was focused more on the topic, Roden. 

I'm not opposed to calling up Roden (As a side note it is interesting that Roden has picked up a ton of fans on Twins Daily) to replace Fedko. If Roden is called up and takes Feko's place, he doesn't get much playing time. So there is that. Additionally Fedko is a better baserunner and glove although the difference is small enough to ignore, maybe. Inexperienced players almost always struggle in a role where they sit after always having been everyday players. 

If Keaschall is now an OF and not a 2B. We are painfully low on infielder depth. There isn't much beyond Gray and not many are happy with Gray. So... we all need to recognize the need for Luke to play some future 2B for us and I'm Ok with that because flexibility is important when the context of the team is everchanging making it impossible to predict those future needs. We just slammed Royce Lewis into 1B in a hot minute because the context changed and I'm ok with that as well because life happens.     

If Clemens is going to face left handers and I'm also OK with that. And Clemens will probably have to face left handers because we don't have infield depth especially with Keaschall now in the OF.

This takes away an available short side job for Roden or Fedko because only Larnach is the left handed hitter that they are going to take out. Gray is the other left handed hitter on the roster and he is struggling to stay afloat versus right handers. 

And I'm OK with this because... I absolutely hate short siding a player who has service time available and a potential future.  

Lee, Kreidler, Clemens and Lewis are our infield. Bell is the DH occasional 1B I assume with Gray plugging in occasionally. 

We have two Catchers and I assume that we won't have three catchers when Jeffers returns. 

That's 8 players leaving 5 OF spots. Buxton, Larnach, Keaschall, Martin and ??? 

It's up to Shelton to keep his 13 players unrusted. The lack of infield options, use of the DH and platoon setups are going to be in his way. 

I can see Roden getting called up and facing the 72% Right Handed Starters and Roden will probably get the call if Buxton is out. Roden/Fedko platoon in CF and Larnach/Martin in LF. 

I won't like it but it's probably coming. 

 

[Nshore]

Include Rodin, lawyers, guns, money, other players, in a blockbuster, surprising, and astonishing trade with the Red Sox to bring back Sonny Gray!

[arby58]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Actually... Outman is currently the starting CF in Detroit. He has started the past 10 games. Including 1 game against a Left Handed Pitcher. Somebody by the name of Malgeri appears to playing that role for the Tigers. 

Outman is still not hitting the ball but playing every day. Outman's tool gives him multiple chances to become what everyone seems to think he can become. The Dodgers didn't take him off the 40 man, The Twins traded for him. The Tigers scooped him up. He didn't clear waivers. Multiple front offices see value in Outman despite no performance. 

With Roden... I'm ok with calling him up as long as he gets some playing time.

He can have Fedko's roster spot.  

For Detroit, Outman is hitting .163, OPS of .588, and OPS+ of 61.

If I were the Twins, I’d inquire as to whether the Tigers are interested in picking up Gray if he were on the waiver wire for cash considerations. I wonder how much the Twins would have to pay the Tigers?

[1985Fan]

One solution to the roster logjam that is coming/already here is to make a trade or two. Yes, I agree Roden should be the next OF promoted before Jenkins. If Buxton goes on the IL, then the roster manipulation is minimized. Don’t want to see Roden promoted to be a pinch runner or late game defensive substitute. An alternative is to trade Roden. I hear Philly is looking for OF help. Twins need BP arms. Work something out. 
Trade Jackson now in anticipation of Jeffers coming back from IL. Or trade Caratini or Jeffers. They’re not locked in to DFA’ing Jackson and losing him for nothing.