Athletics 4, Twins 2 (10 inn.): Twins Can't Convert Chances, Shea Langeliers is Mean

[MinnInPa]

inexcusable that Buxton was not stealing 2nd in the bottom the third.. No outs 2nd and 3rd occupied.. he is then on first and Fitz on third..you have to stay out of what ?? THE DOUBLE PLAY !!!!! with slow afoot Larnach batting ..guess what happened !!! Buxton had to be moving there .. no excuses

[DJL44]

45 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

I’m struggling with Abel not being up for tonight or the next reliever (start) slot this weekend ………unless he’s a mental midget and not equipped for the SHOW, I don’t know what else he can do with the Saints?

There is a good argument that they are actually holding back Abel's development by continuing to keep him in AAA. He's ready.

[MinnInPa]

1 hour ago, shimrod said:

The Outman play at the plate was prime Rocco. Why is the contact play on with no outs and first base open? Aside, of course, from the fact we always run it with a man on third. Which negates much of the value as your opponents don't even have to think about it, they know to go home with the throw.

Squandering that potential big inning is completely on the manager for taking discretion away from the player and forcing him into an out. Just brutal. 

 

horrible baserunning... easy hopper to 3rd ..you have no chance of scoring ..easy out. this going on contact on third has to stop..been watching it for years.. i'd much rather have the runner on third for maybe a Sac Fly ??? 

[Patzky]

4 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The Twins ran themselves out of the game with their aggressive baserunning. Did you want them to lose more games by making more outs on the bases in May and June?

On the bases, you say! 😜 

[DJL44]

Late in the game Royce Lewis, who isn't hitting much this season, came up in a classic bunt situation. The announcers doubted he would bunt, because he has hardly ever been asked to bunt in the past. I do not understand this at all. Wins and losses are meaningless the rest of the season. The only point of these games is to develop the players. If you aren't going to ask him to bunt in that situation, where there is absolutely nothing to lose, then you're basically giving up on developing Royce Lewis as a batter. Why in the world would Rocco prioritize winning this game above developing his players in the long term?

[Edmond Dantes]

2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Late in the game Royce Lewis, who isn't hitting much this season, came up in a classic bunt situation. The announcers doubted he would bunt, because he has hardly ever been asked to bunt in the past. I do not understand this at all. Wins and losses are meaningless the rest of the season. The only point of these games is to develop the players. If you aren't going to ask him to bunt in that situation, where there is absolutely nothing to lose, then you're basically giving up on developing Royce Lewis as a batter. Why in the world would Rocco prioritize winning this game above developing his players in the long term?

I thought the same thing. Didn't the announcers even say that bunting was the initial portion of Lewis's batting practice yesterday? The team is just so bad at fundamental baseball. How many times are they going to have a player thrown out at home before they abandon the run on contact rule. 

[DJL44]

I am struggling to figure out why Matt Wallner has suddenly become the whipping boy around here. He's not perfect but he's performing a LOT better than most of the roster (927 OPS since the all-star break). Is it "hate the local boy" like Joe Mauer? Is it people who hate power hitters who strike out and would rather see slap hitters ground out to SS? He's always going to be a low batting average, high strikeout power hitter but we're up around 900 major league plate appearances that say his bat is good enough. Wallner doesn't make the top 20 things wrong with this team.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Late in the game Royce Lewis, who isn't hitting much this season, came up in a classic bunt situation. The announcers doubted he would bunt, because he has hardly ever been asked to bunt in the past. I do not understand this at all. Wins and losses are meaningless the rest of the season. The only point of these games is to develop the players. If you aren't going to ask him to bunt in that situation, where there is absolutely nothing to lose, then you're basically giving up on developing Royce Lewis as a batter. Why in the world would Rocco prioritize winning this game above developing his players in the long term?

I'd much rather have Royce figuring out how to hit than bunt. Royce's development swinging is much more important than his development bunting, no? I'd never ask a single player on the Twins to bunt again this season. Why? The Twins season didn't fail because of their bunting skills; it failed because of their swinging skills. The fact that wins and losses mean nothing is all the more reason to go up there and swing the bat and develop the ability to actually hit the freaking ball and reach base.

Tell Royce that hits to left don't count for him anymore. He's out unless he hits it to the right of the shortstop. Screw bunting. Bunting didn't ruin their season. If Wallner Ks more than once in a game he gets fined. If Lee chases more than once per plate appearance he's fined. If Julien watches more than 1 pitch over the heart of the plate he's pulled from the game mid at bat. Pick all their biggest weaknesses and whatever punishment you want to come up with and start fixing those weaknesses. Not bunting. Bunting has never ruined a team's season in the history of baseball. Who cares about Royce Lewis bunting? Royce Lewis hitting .225/.288/.358/.646 ruined the season, not him being a bad bunter.

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

I get the frustration but outing pressure on the defense with 2 guys in scoring position isn’t a terrible thing.

No responsibility to the players, ever? Larnach is up with one out and guys at first and third - did Rocco direct him into hitting into the double play - again & again & again?

If you’re going to run that play, which is stupid of course, and it unsurprisingly turns in to an out, how does the fastest guy on the roster not even attempt to steal to 1) get in to scoring position and 2) stay out of the DP? Does Byron always have the green light to go or does he need the manager’s ok? Someone is to blame for that, either Byron or the manager. You’re almost ten games out of the last wild card spot in August 20. Why the caution? Guess we’ll never know.

[Aggies7]

28 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I am struggling to figure out why Matt Wallner has suddenly become the whipping boy around here. He's not perfect but he's performing a LOT better than most of the roster (927 OPS since the all-star break). Is it "hate the local boy" like Joe Mauer? Is it people who hate power hitters who strike out and would rather see slap hitters ground out to SS? He's always going to be a low batting average, high strikeout power hitter but we're up around 900 major league plate appearances that say his bat is good enough. Wallner doesn't make the top 20 things wrong with this team.

He has driven in 11 runs on the season. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

I get the frustration but outing pressure on the defense with 2 guys in scoring position isn’t a terrible thing.

No responsibility to the players, ever? Larnach is up with one out and guys at first and third - did Rocco direct him into hitting into the double play - again & again & again?

NOBODY runs the contact play with runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. Nobody. Not even Rocco. It's not a situation for the contact play.

Which is why, in this particular instance, I tend to think Outman went on his own, by mistake. If you watch the replay, Martin didnt break from second on contact. Further evidence. 

However, don't confuse this for removing blame from Rocco. His teams are annually among the worst situational base running teams in baseball. It's like they dont know how to play the game. And I'm not talking stolen bases. Or just stolen bases.

Tuesday night I counted 4 or 5 bases the As gained on the bases just through proper and aggressive baserunning.  1 for thr Twins.

Last night, tie game 9th inning. Fitzgerald on 1st.  Buxton hits a high fly ball to the wall in deep CF. Fitzgerald absolutely has to tag up. The ball is easily read off the bat....it's either gone, or will be caught. And it's easily deep enough to tag and gain 2nd. But no. Fitzgerald is halfway and can't tag. Followed, of course, by what SHOULD have been Larnach's walkoff single. Only it's not a walkoff, because Fitzgerald is on 1st, instead of 2nd. 

We don't score, game goes 10, we lose.

BTW, in said 10th inning, for some GD reason, down two runs, Martin tags from 2nd on a fly ball to left center. He makes it, but it's a ridiculously stupid play with no upside. You're down 2, Martin's run means nothing. Why ghe heck are you risking getting thrown out there when there's zero benefit? 

Just the latest examples of how this team, under this manager, DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO, OR DOESN'T CARE TO, play the game. 

Keeping Baldelli as manager simply ensures the Twins continue to piss away games, not due to talent, but due to dumbassery. 

[USAFChief]

41 minutes ago, MinnInPa said:

horrible baserunning... easy hopper to 3rd ..you have no chance of scoring ..easy out. this going on contact on third has to stop..been watching it for years.. i'd much rather have the runner on third for maybe a Sac Fly ??? 

There are multiple situations where the contact play is the smart and proper play.

But not 2nd and 3rd, no outs. 

 

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I am struggling to figure out why Matt Wallner has suddenly become the whipping boy around here. He's not perfect but he's performing a LOT better than most of the roster (927 OPS since the all-star break). Is it "hate the local boy" like Joe Mauer? Is it people who hate power hitters who strike out and would rather see slap hitters ground out to SS? He's always going to be a low batting average, high strikeout power hitter but we're up around 900 major league plate appearances that say his bat is good enough. Wallner doesn't make the top 20 things wrong with this team.

It's mid-August and Wallner has driven in 11 baserunners.

Ee-lev-nn.

Thats why some of us believe OPS isnt a good measure of actual offense impact.

High K, low BA hitters who depend on one swing every 25 PAs tend to be very overrated by OPS.

I know considering RBI as a meaningful stat brands me as a Neanderthal. Don't care, so don't bother. 

RBI are the single most important thing a hitter can do in a baseball game. 

[Woof Bronzer]

24 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I am struggling to figure out why Matt Wallner has suddenly become the whipping boy around here. He's not perfect but he's performing a LOT better than most of the roster (927 OPS since the all-star break). Is it "hate the local boy" like Joe Mauer? Is it people who hate power hitters who strike out and would rather see slap hitters ground out to SS? He's always going to be a low batting average, high strikeout power hitter but we're up around 900 major league plate appearances that say his bat is good enough. Wallner doesn't make the top 20 things wrong with this team.

Maybe OPS isn't the sole metric that should be used to evaluate hitters?   

[USAFChief]

11 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

He has 11 RBI for the season. 

False. He has 27 RBI. But 16 of those are himself. 

Hes driven in 11 baserunners. 

[DJL44]

14 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'd much rather have Royce figuring out how to hit than bunt. Royce's development swinging is much more important than his development bunting, no? I'd never ask a single player on the Twins to bunt again this season. Why? The Twins season didn't fail because of their bunting skills; it failed because of their swinging skills. The fact that wins and losses mean nothing is all the more reason to go up there and swing the bat and develop the ability to actually hit the freaking ball and reach base.

Tell Royce that hits to left don't count for him anymore. He's out unless he hits it to the right of the shortstop. Screw bunting. Bunting didn't ruin their season. If Wallner Ks more than once in a game he gets fined. If Lee chases more than once per plate appearance he's fined. If Julien watches more than 1 pitch over the heart of the plate he's pulled from the game mid at bat. Pick all their biggest weaknesses and whatever punishment you want to come up with and start fixing those weaknesses. Not bunting. Bunting has never ruined a team's season in the history of baseball. Who cares about Royce Lewis bunting? Royce Lewis hitting .225/.288/.358/.646 ruined the season, not him being a bad bunter.

I guess if you want to develop one-dimensional hitters, then that's fine. You'll get a Royce Lewis who can only hit opposite field, a Matt Wallner who grounds out to 2B all the time, a Brooks Lee who hits like Julien and a Julien who hits like Brooks Lee. Never mind that you can't punish people into performing better athletically.

Lots of coaches will take a player who is struggling at the plate and have them put down a bunt. It's not a crazy idea to have players look at the situation and try to make the most of the at-bat in that situation. I want Royce Lewis to be able to pull the ball when they give him a fastball in, go opposite field on a slider away AND put down a bunt when the situation calls for it.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

False. He has 27 RBI. But 16 of those are himself. 

Hes driven in 11 baserunners. 

Corrected

[mickster]

2 hours ago, Wedman13 said:

Obviously neither of us know how Gonzalez will turn out but what don't you like about him?

I am just feeling he is over rated and is a prospect, and no more so would love to sell high on him now - I could be way wrong and I hope I am

[Aggies7]

28 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I guess if you want to develop one-dimensional hitters, then that's fine. You'll get a Royce Lewis who can only hit opposite field, a Matt Wallner who grounds out to 2B all the time, a Brooks Lee who hits like Julien and a Julien who hits like Brooks Lee. Never mind that you can't punish people into performing better athletically.

Lots of coaches will take a player who is struggling at the plate and have them put down a bunt. It's not a crazy idea to have players look at the situation and try to make the most of the at-bat in that situation. I want Royce Lewis to be able to pull the ball when they give him a fastball in, go opposite field on a slider away AND put down a bunt when the situation calls for it.

It’s also kind of crazy to act like learning how to bunt is some time consuming arduous practice that takes away from swinging away. It used to be just the big bopper DH types would stink at bunting. Now it’s everyone down to the worst hitter on the team that can’t figure out how to bunt. And I know this isn’t unique to the twins, it’s how baseball is anymore. But maybe it will take an organization or two focusing on returning to the fundamentals of the game to get everyone else in to it.

[DJL44]

13 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

He has 11 RBI for the season. 

That's wrong. He has 27 RBI in 79 games this season. His career average over 162 games is 75 RBI. He's not an all-star, but he's clearly a major league hitter.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

That's wrong. He has 27 RBI in 79 games this season. His career average over 162 games is 75 RBI. He's not an all-star, but he's clearly a major league hitter.

I corrected it, as chief said, he’s driven in 11 people other than himself all year 

[DJL44]

9 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

RBI are the single most important thing a hitter can do in a baseball game. 

RBI are mostly about whether or not the players batting ahead of you have a high OBP.

[Senior Softball Guy]

7 hours ago, Nshore said:

One of the few positives is that Rocco apparently has figured out that they need to play more aggressively on the base paths.  But it took until August.

Inexplicably he doesn't run "Buck" with double-play machine Larnach at the plate. If Buck runs, they don't even throw through. Was that Buck's decision not to run?

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

RBI are mostly about whether or not the players batting ahead of you have a high OBP.

Yeah, I've heard that theory. 

 

[P Meyer]

40 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I am struggling to figure out why Matt Wallner has suddenly become the whipping boy around here. He's not perfect but he's performing a LOT better than most of the roster (927 OPS since the all-star break). Is it "hate the local boy" like Joe Mauer? Is it people who hate power hitters who strike out and would rather see slap hitters ground out to SS? He's always going to be a low batting average, high strikeout power hitter but we're up around 900 major league plate appearances that say his bat is good enough. Wallner doesn't make the top 20 things wrong with this team.

Wallner is another one where he only has 744 career ABs. Just play the dude every day at the end of a lost season, and let him show you who he is. 

 

Wallner, Lewis, Lee, Keaschall, Jeffers, and Larnach all probably should just be added to the lineup every day unless they need a break. You can rotate the Outman's and Fitgerald's and Clemens and whomever else with each other to fill things out. Maybe my mind on this changes if someone gets called up (Fedko maybe?) but for now, let the young guys work through it.

[shimrod]

43 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

NOBODY runs the contact play with runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. Nobody. Not even Rocco. It's not a situation for the contact play.

Which is why, in this particular instance, I tend to think Outman went on his own, by mistake.

I haven't seen every game this season, but in every Twins game I've seen a runner on third is invariably running on contact. I've seen no exceptions.

It's Rocco.

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, Glorybound said:

   The front office likely has their reasons. Working on some things they want cleaned up. He might as well be as ready as they possibly can make him when they bring him up as this season is lost. My guess is they want him in the rotation when the 26 season starts. Rushing the process sometimes regresses the development of the individual.

Especially these days, when teams are assessing carefully pitcher arsenals and many teams have specific pitches they like to try to add. If they're working on adding a pitch, or training sequencing, better to do so in AAA. 

[Maybe Next Year]

When a team is struggling to produce runs you need a manager who knows how to manufacture one. Sadly, Baldelli hasn't a clue.

[NYCTK]

38 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I guess if you want to develop one-dimensional hitters, then that's fine. You'll get a Royce Lewis who can only hit opposite field, a Matt Wallner who grounds out to 2B all the time, a Brooks Lee who hits like Julien and a Julien who hits like Brooks Lee. Never mind that you can't punish people into performing better athletically.

Lots of coaches will take a player who is struggling at the plate and have them put down a bunt. It's not a crazy idea to have players look at the situation and try to make the most of the at-bat in that situation. I want Royce Lewis to be able to pull the ball when they give him a fastball in, go opposite field on a slider away AND put down a bunt when the situation calls for it.

People here trying to recreate Tom Kelly's hitting philosophy that drove Big Papi to become a hall of famer with the Red Sox. 

[NYCTK]

36 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s also kind of crazy to act like learning how to bunt is some time consuming arduous practice that takes away from swinging away. It used to be just the big bopper DH types would stink at bunting. Now it’s everyone down to the worst hitter on the team that can’t figure out how to bunt. And I know this isn’t unique to the twins, it’s how baseball is anymore. But maybe it will take an organization or two focusing on returning to the fundamentals of the game to get everyone else in to it.

We also need to remember that pitching is SO MUCH better now that 20, 40, or 60 years ago. Average fastball is so much faster. Average breaking pitch has so much more break. 

Maybe everyone's just as good a bunter, but bunting is just way more difficult these days.