Vikings Offseason Thread

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

What super bowl contender is just a QB away?

49ers. For about a decade now too.

And I think he Steelers could pull it off with a real QB.

[nicksaviking]

42 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I do find it humorous that a potential Belichick/Kirk duo in Atlanta will make them Super Bowl contenders 

I’d put that more on Belichick actually. They have a lot of young and talented defensive players who might just need the right vision. They weren’t a good unit collectively, but I don’t see where the individual faults lie, LB and DB look more than solid, a stud edge rusher could put them over the top.

As for the offense, if Robinson, Pitts and London had a real QB? Oof, that could be a dangerous group. Seems like it would look like the peak Lions or Vikings.

[Mike Sixel]

29 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

49ers. For about a decade now too.

And I think he Steelers could pull it off with a real QB.

You think they're benching Purdy? 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

You think they're benching Purdy? 

No, they're stuck. He's plenty good enough, but I don't think he's good enough to put a team on his back. Just like the Cowboys and Prescott and the Vikings and the last half decade with Cousins. 

But at least the 49ers have a great defense. History has shown you can win with a good-not-elite QB if you have an elite defense.

[gunnarthor]

9 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

No, they're stuck. He's plenty good enough, but I don't think he's good enough to put a team on his back. Just like the Cowboys and Prescott and the Vikings and the last half decade with Cousins. 

But at least the 49ers have a great defense. History has shown you can win with a good-not-elite QB if you have an elite defense.

Who do you think is elite? This is nuts. Purdy leads the league, by a pretty large margin, in rating, yards per attempt, yards per completion, etc. He's top 4 in pretty much every good QB stat. When he was playing bad - or when he was hurt - the 49ers were losing games. If he didn't get hurt in the NFC championship game, SF likely wins the Superbowl.

[Parfigliano]

39 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Who do you think is elite? This is nuts. Purdy leads the league, by a pretty large margin, in rating, yards per attempt, yards per completion, etc. He's top 4 in pretty much every good QB stat. When he was playing bad - or when he was hurt - the 49ers were losing games. If he didn't get hurt in the NFC championship game, SF likely wins the Superbowl.

He has the stats and wins to prove he's elite.  People get hung up on his draft position or discount him because SF as a team surrounds him with talent and coaching on both sides of the ball.  

[nicksaviking]

49 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Who do you think is elite? This is nuts. Purdy leads the league, by a pretty large margin, in rating, yards per attempt, yards per completion, etc. He's top 4 in pretty much every good QB stat. When he was playing bad - or when he was hurt - the 49ers were losing games. If he didn't get hurt in the NFC championship game, SF likely wins the Superbowl.

Purdy might get there, he’s young, heck maybe he is already there. I presume he’s just out there as Shanahan’s puppet right now, but that could be wrong. Everyone forgets Brady was the ‘game manager’ type early in his career, he didn’t evolve into the take charge field general until several years in.

[gunnarthor]

19 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Purdy might get there, he’s young, heck maybe he is already there. I presume he’s just out there as Shanahan’s puppet right now, but that could be wrong. Everyone forgets Brady was the ‘game manager’ type early in his career, he didn’t evolve into the take charge field general until several years in.

He might get there? Is Stroud elite? Burrow? Herbert? Lawrence? Prescott?

Name the elite QBs this year.

[nicksaviking]

46 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

He has the stats and wins to prove he's elite.  People get hung up on his draft position or discount him because SF as a team surrounds him with talent and coaching on both sides of the ball.  

I don’t get hung up on that. It’s all about the improvisation. Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers and Burrow will improvise a new play when they see the prescribed play won’t work against the defense. Jackson, Allen and Hurts can improvise with their legs, and do so regularly. 
 

The play calling coach is at a big disadvantage because the call the play before seeing the defense. A good QB still runs the play as designed with the prescribed audibles and reads, but they don’t change things on the fly like the elite guys do.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

He might get there? Is Stroud elite? Burrow? Herbert? Lawrence? Prescott?

Name the elite QBs this year.

It’s not about the stats. Burrow looks to be elite and Stroud looks promising. Lawrence doesn’t look like it. Herbert does look like it, but elite QBs don’t play on continually losing teams, so I suspect something is missing. Between Herbert and Lawrance, Herbert seems more likely to get there.

And I get the disconnect, and it's on me, I shouldn't be using the word "elite". Simply I want a maverick instead of a boy scout. A good one, not Jameis Winston. I see the maverick types as the top of the food chain, but acknowledge that doesn't necessarily mean they have stats any better than some of the other guys. And it's fair if others think the maverick type is over rated, that's just what I want. Or at least I want to give it a shot. We haven't had that kind of QB since Favre was here. 

[stringer bell]

Yeah, it is pretty hard to quantify what an elite QB is. I think most of all, which guys are able to take a team down the field when the chips are down, especially on the road. I think Burrow, Allen, Mahomes are guys that would be good bets in that scenario. Maybe Stroud or Love have grown to that point, I don't know. I'd put all five of those guys and Matthew Stafford ahead of Cousins or Goff, but I don't have numbers to back it up. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

Yeah, it is pretty hard to quantify what an elite QB is. I think most of all, which guys are able to take a team down the field when the chips are down, especially on the road. I think Burrow, Allen, Mahomes are guys that would be good bets in that scenario. Maybe Stroud or Love have grown to that point, I don't know. I'd put all five of those guys and Matthew Stafford ahead of Cousins or Goff, but I don't have numbers to back it up. 

Cousins did it over and over the last two healthy years, unfortunately the defense gave up those leads in less than a minute often three years ago.. 

[Parfigliano]

Texans hung with Ravens for 30 minutes which is 20 more then I thought they would.

[Parfigliano]

Anyone else up for a Packer beat down 

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Yeah, it is pretty hard to quantify what an elite QB is. I think most of all, which guys are able to take a team down the field when the chips are down, especially on the road. I think Burrow, Allen, Mahomes are guys that would be good bets in that scenario. Maybe Stroud or Love have grown to that point, I don't know. I'd put all five of those guys and Matthew Stafford ahead of Cousins or Goff, but I don't have numbers to back it up. 

Agree with you, I’m a numbers guy, but this just has never seemed quantifiable. Which is frustrating as a fan who likes to speculate and prognosticate about future players.

[sampleSizeOfOne]

What i miss?

(other than it was an off season... and now it is the off season.)

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:03 PM, gunnarthor said:

Assuming the Vikings somehow resign Cousins to a deal that makes him the QB this year and next (maybe some extra years tacked on) and Hunter leaves, what do you think the Vikings should do with the draft? (They have a first and second but no third this year).

A) best edge rusher available
B) best corner available
C) trade back for more picks than A/B.
D) QB for the future!

My very early opinion is that if they can move back modestly (no more than 10 slots), fine. But they need talent and pick 11 could see some interesting players available. I'd probably stay pat, suck it up, and make my picks, hoping a great edge rusher is there at 11 and Texas' monster DT is there at 42.

I go the complete opposite way.  If you're going to spend big on Cousins, lean in.  Get IOL help, a bona fide receiver, and some RB help.  Try to put together the best offense in the league for next year, and tell Flores that all he has to do is keep the other team under 30 every week.  As pertains to the draft, that probably means drafting a WR in round 1 (with a potential trade back depending on how the first 10 picks shake out; Marvin Harrison there at 11? Draft him.  4 WR already off the board?  Trade back.)  Use your second rounder for a center or guard, and hope Audric Estime drops to the fourth.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:59 AM, nicksaviking said:

I'm not throwing the GM out yet. One of my biggest Vikings pet peeves is blowing early picks on DBs and it always has been, so he started off rubbing me the wrong way from the start. I know, that's more on me than it is on him.

And glad to see the Cowboys keeping McCarthy. Because I hate the Cowboys.

2024 is a hot-seat season For Kwesi, and by extension, KOC.  If the Vikings miss the playoffs again, I think you have to move on (barring the reason the playoffs were missed is a completely biblical spate of injuries).  The team went 13-4 with Spielman's players in 2022 (along with massively unsustainable amounts of luck), so if they drop to losing records in the next 2 seasons, once the roster more reflects Kwesi's picks, that's a pretty clear indictment in my opinion.

[nicksaviking]

49 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

2024 is a hot-seat season For Kwesi, and by extension, KOC.  If the Vikings miss the playoffs again, I think you have to move on (barring the reason the playoffs were missed is a completely biblical spate of injuries).  The team went 13-4 with Spielman's players in 2022 (along with massively unsustainable amounts of luck), so if they drop to losing records in the next 2 seasons, once the roster more reflects Kwesi's picks, that's a pretty clear indictment in my opinion.

I think that would depend on what Adofo-Mensah and ownership discuss about a game plan for next year.

If they don't re-sign Cousins or Hunter, there's next to no chance ownership would be expecting them to have a winning record next season. If they're preparing for a rebuild, which only makes sense at this point, I think the GM and coach are safe for at least another season.

If they retain those two, I agree, both GM and coach will face the music, even though I don't think anyone should be expecting anything resembling a happy season even if they did.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I think that would depend on what Adofo-Mensah and ownership discuss about a game plan for next year.

If they don't re-sign Cousins or Hunter, there's next to no chance ownership would be expecting them to have a winning record next season. If they're preparing for a rebuild, which only makes sense at this point, I think the GM and coach are safe for at least another season.

If they retain those two, I agree, both GM and coach will face the music, even though I don't think anyone should be expecting anything resembling a happy season even if they did.

Agreed, if they don't want to pay Hunter and Cousins (or only 1), they aren't winning much of anything next year most likely....this has to be a discussion they are having with ownership. 

[yeahyabetcha]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Agreed, if they don't want to pay Hunter and Cousins (or only 1), they aren't winning much of anything next year most likely....this has to be a discussion they are having with ownership. 

Isn’t a large part of where the Vikings are this off season due to the mostly unproductive last two drafts?  I think Kwesi and KOC are in trouble unless they have a very productive off season.

[gunnarthor]

42 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Isn’t a large part of where the Vikings are this off season due to the mostly unproductive last two drafts?  I think Kwesi and KOC are in trouble unless they have a very productive off season.

Last year's draft wasn't that bad - Addison, Blackmon and Pace all seem good. Spielman had some bad drafts that are hurting us more.

Realistically, it would be really surprising if KOC or Kwesi were on the hot seat. They created a top offense and were likely a playoff team this year without Cousins' injury.

[yeahyabetcha]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

Last year's draft wasn't that bad - Addison, Blackmon and Pace all seem good. Spielman had some bad drafts that are hurting us more.

Realistically, it would be really surprising if KOC or Kwesi were on the hot seat. They created a top offense and were likely a playoff team this year without Cousins' injury.

The offense they inherited did have fair amount of talent.  KOC is a better offensive mind than Zimmer, i give you that.  But as far as building a team, I think the current regime has plenty to prove.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Isn’t a large part of where the Vikings are this off season due to the mostly unproductive last two drafts?  I think Kwesi and KOC are in trouble unless they have a very productive off season.

One bad draft, one average draft. The issue was how little talent was here before. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

The offense they inherited did have fair amount of talent.  KOC is a better offensive mind than Zimmer, i give you that.  But as far as building a team, I think the current regime has plenty to prove.

Agreed they have much to prove, but it's been all of two years.....

[yeahyabetcha]

9 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

One bad draft, one average draft. The issue was how little talent was here before. 

I disagree.  There was some very nice offensive talent here when they took over.  The defense did need a rebuild and maybe bringing in Cine and Booth while losing Hunter will prove successful, but I have my doubts.

[nicksaviking]

14 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Last year's draft wasn't that bad - Addison, Blackmon and Pace all seem good. Spielman had some bad drafts that are hurting us more.

Realistically, it would be really surprising if KOC or Kwesi were on the hot seat. They created a top offense and were likely a playoff team this year without Cousins' injury.

I'm not giving them credit for drafting Pace, he came here on his own volition, and certainly only because the LB group was so bad that this was his best chance to make a team and play. And he was right, he probably doesn't get a starting job week two anywhere else. I'm glad they have him, but he wasn't some slick scouting coup by this team, he was the top UDFA available and if they REALLY wanted him, they would have used a draft pick on him.

[wabene]

There was never a time during the Zimmer, Spielman regime where we had the worst talent in the division. That time is upon us. The last few years surely turned sour, but Spielman was an above average GM. Kwesi has a long way to go to even get there. I think he is in over his head. He is new to football in relation to his peers. 

[gunnarthor]

I guess I just don't get the negativity. They won 13 games last season and they played most of this season without Cousins. It seems like people don't want to give them credit for last year (they were lucky!) but want to give them all the blame this year. 

It's way too early to judge Kwesi or KOC but I tend to think both are improvements over Spielman and Zimmer. I liked the Hockenson trade. KOC has certainly seemed to improve the offense and bringing in Flores (whether that's a KOC or Kwesi decision) was a good one. When they were hired, we knew that the defense was in trouble and the improvement we saw in one year of Flores makes me think that the team has a plan and knows what kind of players fit its scheme. 

We'll see how the off-season goes but I think it is far too early to give up on both of them.

[nicksaviking]

10 minutes ago, wabene said:

There was never a time during the Zimmer, Spielman regime where we had the worst talent in the division. That time is upon us. The last few years surely turned sour, but Spielman was an above average GM, Kwesi has a long way to go to even get there. I think he is in over his head. He is new to football in relation to his peers. 

The Bears still have a lack of talent and I'd say they're no better, but yeah, this is the most talent devoid Vikings team in a long time.

However, I will put a lot of that on Spielman and ownership. They were the ones who continued to kick the can down the road putting off having to deal with the ageing veterans. Adofo-Mensah partook in that game the last two years, but that was likely at the behest of ownership.

But I'm also more critical of him than most regarding his last two years of roster building, and I'm far from in agreement with others that last year's draft was good or even average. Addison looks like he'll be decent, but he was far too inconsistent and had lots of mental lapses. For being an NFL-ready prospect, he should have stolen the show when Jefferson was out most of the year, yet, that's when he disappeared most. I'm optimistic, but still TBD on him.