Can Conflict be Both Positive and Negative on a Team?

[Riverbrian]

35 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

I think that the answer to the question posed by the article is  "it depends".  Some groups, whether they be athletic teams, musical organizations, or business partners, seem to thrive on conflict.  The presence of conflict fuels their energy, creativity, and productivity.  That can work. . . . for some people, some of the time.  On the other hand, conflict can also tear a team apart if it is allowed to get out of hand and/or erodes trust in teammates/management.  They key is knowing what the relationships involved will respond favorably to.  It's not always obvious and it's not always easy. 

Interestingly, some fans are voicing displeasure about Rocco's supposed lack of being confrontational with his hitters to "light a fire under them".  However, many of this same group would like him to defer to whatever Sonny Gray would prefer in his starts because, after all, Gray has already decided that he hates it in MN and will never resign with the Twins due to Baldelli's style of management.   Hmmmmm. . . . .

Great post and I think you would back me on what I'm about to type. 

It's really hard to know how to work with others when you work directly with them.  

It's much much harder if not impossible to know how someone else should work with others when you have never met any of them.   

[mikelink45]

My statement is simple - I am on Gray's side!

[Beast]

He didn’t have that rough of an outing.  We see worse outings nearly daily out of someone in our bullpen.  Gray is supposed to be the leader of our pitching staff, the anchor.  He’s been one of the best pitchers in the MLB this year.  He’s right to be pissed at the seemingly incompetent (lately) Rocco Baldelli, who makes the wrong move 9 times out of 10.

No matter how many writers that are de facto on the Twins payroll try to spin this as the right move…. It was the wrong move.  If the Twins would’ve won the game, there would be an argument there.  But, the bullpen went on to give up 3 runs immediately.  No matter what the spreadsheet says, it didn’t work.

It’s an overarching theme.  It’s not the one loss that’s the issue.  That’s what the “ball guys” seem to missing.  There’s a human element here, and pitchers and agents are always thinking about the next contract.  Who the hell is going to want to pitch here if you’re going to get yanked after 75 pitches and 2 earned runs after 5 innings?  What would it have hurt this team to give Gray a shot to work through an off day?

We’re seeing it across the board right now.  Pinch hitting for guys like Alex Kirilloff and Royce Lewis for some bad journeyman because they hit on the opposite side is absurd.

They’ve gone too far.  We’re watching the Frankenstein’s Monster of baseball analytics. 

[Rosterman]

Gray is an interesting issue for the Twins right now. Does anyone see the team extending him, or just offering a qualifying offer...which would get us back a higher-draft pick to offset the loss of Chase Petty in the long run, maybe even a collegiate level pitcher who would hit the majors at the same time as...Chase.

He could also be an intriguing tradechip, if the Twins feel they still have enough depth to finish the season (can Ober pitch 130-140 innings, for example, not to mention Madea). . Part of that decision would also apply to how well Enlow, for example, MIGHT pitch at AAA, and if the still young Woods Richardson can get back on track. We all know Varland has great potential, and now need to see him  make adjustments regarding homers at AAA.

In some ways, Gray is also working on an inning limit. Do the Twins want to get 150-160 innings out of im in 30+ starts. He's on the track, for now.

 

[Aerodeliria]

Not that my opinion matters one whit, I didn't agree with pulling Gray in that situation because it cost him a potential win. I want 'my ace' with that kind of mentality. I think a negotiated settlement would have been nice, something along the lines of "OK, I agree to let you start the 5th, but one walk or one hit and you're out of the game." With that said, I have generally been supportive of Baldelli's handling of the pitchers. He has who he has, and I think they are pitching actually slightly better than I expected...the hitting and fielding, well those are horses of a different color...

[kenneth frank]

He's a veteran and he is willing to battle. Bert Blyleven was an example of a veteran pitcher that was allowed to stay in despite home runs. inconsistent pitches and a high pitch count. The problem is the manager, arguing with a player in front of a live audience (including his team) is not good management, coaching nor motivation. By leaving Gray in...what did they have to lose? The Game? This team is underperforming and it all begins with management. Why wait to the end of a miserable season to fire Baldelli? 

[terrydactyls]

17 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

The thing that remains the same is that they do have a roster with potential, but they don't have much of a chance against the elite teams in the playoffs.  While I would not invest a lot in such a team, I also would not be inclined to sell.

Let me see if I understand your thinking.  The Twins, as a team, have potential.  But, despite that potential, they have little chance of advancing in the playoffs against elite teams.  Therefore, you wouldn't try too hard to improve the Twins but you also wouldn't trade with contenders in hopes of being better next year. 

The end result of this strategy is that the Twins begin 2024 with a team that has potential but no chance in the playoffs (if they make it that far).  This doesn't appeal to me at all.  I do agree that there is some potential and that they can't compete with the big dogs.  The Twins have to get better to win games in the playoffs.  And one of the best ways is to trade anyone that is not a meaningful piece of the 2024 version of the Twins for younger players with potential.  I would rather see a young team full of potential than a team that has a very good chance of not getting past round one of the playoffs (if they even make the playoffs).

[terrydactyls]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

He could also be an intriguing tradechip, if the Twins feel they still have enough depth to finish the season (can Ober pitch 130-140 innings, for example, not to mention Madea). 

I believe Madea is a character played by Tyler Perry.  And a prominent figure in Greek literature.

[terrydactyls]

I think that most of the comments supporting Gray could be summarized thusly:

"I think Gray is right because I hate Baldelli, always have, and always will."

[wabene]

[rv78]

Are any of the pitchers happy when they get pulled? Why is it that just Gray that gets talked about? Because he voices his displeasure or shows it through his body language when Rocco makes the move. My guess is very few pitchers like getting removed from the game. Some just don't "show" it like Gray does. Blyleven was notorious for saying in the broadcast booth that he wanted to finish what he started everytime he went out there, meaning .... pitch a complete game. Now that happens how often? Never for the Twins, and using the analytical approach, it never will again. The biggest thing I see going on with Rocco and not just his pitchers but all of his players... is "confidence". Rocco shows little to none in any of them to do their job beyond what his analytical spreadsheet says. As soon as they show one instance of struggling to get hitters out, and if it is in his spreadsheet danger zone he makes the move. He has no confidence in them rising above the analytical BS that he uses. He does it on the hitting side as well, pinch-hitting or shuffling the lineup daily because he thinks they can't hit a pitcher that throws right-handed one day and one that throws left-handed the next day. You know what? Most of them are proving they can't hit period and the reason for that is the same....... If your Manager shows no confidence in you, why would you care? And this team plays exactly like THAT! Look at the picture at the top of this article. Other than Gray they all have their heads down, dejected and none of them are looking at each other. Rocco is dressed like a bum, at least tuck your shirt in and look respectable if you want to be respected.

[Major League Ready]

36 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Let me see if I understand your thinking.  The Twins, as a team, have potential.  But, despite that potential, they have little chance of advancing in the playoffs against elite teams.  Therefore, you wouldn't try too hard to improve the Twins but you also wouldn't trade with contenders in hopes of being better next year. 

The end result of this strategy is that the Twins begin 2024 with a team that has potential but no chance in the playoffs (if they make it that far).  This doesn't appeal to me at all.  I do agree that there is some potential and that they can't compete with the big dogs.  The Twins have to get better to win games in the playoffs.  And one of the best ways is to trade anyone that is not a meaningful piece of the 2024 version of the Twins for younger players with potential.  I would rather see a young team full of potential than a team that has a very good chance of not getting past round one of the playoffs (if they even make the playoffs).

I think we mostly agree.  Trading short-term assets for long-term assets is far more important to sustained winning than trading prospects for proven players, especially for teams in the bottom two-thirds in revenue.  Joe Ryan and Jhoan Duran are examples on our team. 

They also need to balance winning in the present.  It's a matter of how much do you invest or what type of returns do you forgo to win in the present.   IMO, this team is not worthy of investment but I also would not sell off.  The odds of them being truly competitive in the post season are very low.  However, there is a small chance this roster comes together and they play competitive playoff baseball.  For me that's not worthy of sacrificing much of the future but I would not totally give up on the present.  Let's see what the situation looks like in 5 weeks and what type of offers we have for expiring contracts.  Gray is the one guy likely to bring a return.  He is also someone we will need to make a post season run which of course is why he would net a good return.

We can make room by letting Kepler / Solano and Pagan go.

[MABB1959]

20 hours ago, wsnydes said:

Money is the reason he won't entertain a new contract.  He wants to be a free agent.  At his age, I don't blame him one bit.  If it comes out that the Twins outbid everyone else and he still signed elsewhere, then I think it's fair to say that.  As it is, simply wanting to test the free agent market is hardly an indictment of this situation.

I would bet 99% of the players on the roster would be thrilled to be traded, especially those in the prime of their careers.  Money is important to them but the thrill of a going deep in the play-offs, a game 7 of the WS is probably something they have dreamed about since they were kids.  I am sure Hicks, Berrios, Arraez and other or soon to be talented players inside were jumping for joy to go to a new team.  Not just because this team won't likely make or go far in the play-off but the fact the Pohlad's don't care probably factors in.  Now that the FO seems to be inept at recognizing talent it will be even harder to attract the good to great players

[terrydactyls]

36 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I think we mostly agree.  Trading short-term assets for long-term assets is far more important to sustained winning than trading prospects for proven players, especially for teams in the bottom two-thirds in revenue.  Joe Ryan and Jhoan Duran are examples on our team. 

They also need to balance winning in the present.  It's a matter of how much do you invest or what type of returns do you forgo to win in the present.   IMO, this team is not worthy of investment but I also would not sell off.  The odds of them being truly competitive in the post season are very low.  However, there is a small chance this roster comes together and they play competitive playoff baseball.  For me that's not worthy of sacrificing much of the future but I would not totally give up on the present.  Let's see what the situation looks like in 5 weeks and what type of offers we have for expiring contracts.  Gray is the one guy likely to bring a return.  He is also someone we will need to make a post season run which of course is why he would net a good return.

We can make room by letting Kepler / Solano and Pagan go.

I would also try to move Vasquez (if the return is good), Gallo, Castro, and Polanco.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Anybody that has played a team sport at a college level or higher knows that these guys basically live together 24/7 during the season.  Conflicts are inevitable.  When disagreements happen in public, the give people something to talk about.

Good pitchers want the ball, regardless of the situation.  Managers get paid to make these types of decisions.  Players do not have to like it, but they do have to live with it.  Based off of their public comments, they both know it and will continue to work on it.  

[Major League Ready]

1 minute ago, terrydactyls said:

I would also try to move Vasquez (if the return is good), Gallo, Castro, and Polanco.

Agree on Gallo for sure.  Not sure about Vasquez.  I don't think Castro is the kind of player that brings much at the deadline.  Plus, I really like the idea of having him on the bench for 2 more years.   Polanco in due time.  I am just not sure it's time yet.  Of course, the right return could move up the right time.   

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

This for anybody who wants to take a stab at it.

Name a manager who wouldn't get the bullpen up and going after a single and 3 walks in an inning and 75 pitches through 4 innings. 

 

Mayo Smith.

Walt Alston.

Casey Stengel.