Handling Byron Buxton

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, The_Phantom said:

I think it’s very naive to assume he doesn’t have any say. Again, grievances are a thing. AND he has a history of at least threatening one in 2018 when he was putrid and didn’t like being sent down to the minors. 
 
He has an incentive heavy deal. If he truly didn’t have any say in whether he played, that has grievance written ALL over it. Hes played very well when he’s in the lineup and hes  potentially missing out on literally millions by not playing. 
 
 

There’s a lot of assumptions being made without naming them.

1) we don’t know Buxton’s health

2) we don’t know what the agreement is (agreed with the Phantom, there is likely an agreement of some kind)

3) we don’t know the alternatives to intermittent rest.

if we don’t know if there’s an issue, or if this is preventative, we don’t know if Buxton agreed, or if there are alternatives, all we’re left with is guessing.

not sure why we got our collective selves all twisted up on this

[Riverbrian]

7 hours ago, stringer bell said:

If the organization wants support from the fans, I would think that they can and should be trusted. I can understand privacy issues to a degree, but beyond that, these are public people. There are daily reports about injuries, why should the team shroud Buxton's status in mystery?

I remember TK saying that he would never give Puckett a day off at home, because fans came to see him play. If fans love what Buxton brings (I think they do), it has to be disappointing seeing him in the dugout chewing seeds, but not playing.

Collectively we (the public) are a bunch of bullies and jerks.

We demand the truth so we can take the truth and shove it right back up the &*# from which it came. 

We are the reason the messages are managed. We are the reason that P.R. exists in the first place. We are the reason that we ultimately don't know what is going on. Spend one second on social media and just read what we say about others. Imagine the words typed being said face to face. 

Frankly it amazes me that we can't seem to see the cause and effect of our behavior.   

How did we do as a collective group with "Bi-Lateral Leg Weakness"?

Collectively we are a bunch of bullies and jerks. 

[The Mad King]

Remember when he called back just in time for the playoffs? And got beaned in the head? And missed the playoffs? "Protecting" him suggests the team thinks it has control over the universe and it's actions. You send your kids to school and hope nothing happens. Sitting him when he's healthy is no better than him being injured in the first place. If this isn't mismanagement I don't know what is. 

 

 

 

[Nine of twelve]

14 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

The best possible plan is to hire a talented medical team and follow their advice.

 

I think that's what has been done and is being done.

[TheLeviathan]

Byron Buxton was gifted the genetics of a marvelous baseball player but also the genetics that cannot endure the rigors of playing baseball.

I sure hope we aren't in for 7 years of this yo-yo.

[The_Phantom]

50 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Frankly it amazes me that we can't seem to see the cause and effect of our behavior.   

How did we do as a collective group with "Bi-Lateral Leg Weakness"?

Collectively we are a bunch of bullies and jerks. 

Sorry, but I really don’t think the Buxton situation is comparable to Mauer at all. The response to Mauer was often over the top. He was an aging catcher, Buxton is in the prime years of his potential physical fitness and is an ultra athlete who just signed a pretty lengthy deal that was largely based on how many plate appearances he gets. I don’t think there’s anything bullyish about getting excited at the idea that he has an incentive to play more nor getting frustrated that he’s seemingly just taking every 3rd game off for “precaution”. Especially when he’s seemingly healthy and there were 4 or 5 spots that the obvious move was to put in Buxton. And Rocco’s excuse was “well that’s not what we planned before the game started”.

 
then what exactly are you “managing” if you’re told a game plan before the game and it’s ironclad 

[Squirrel]

9 hours ago, stringer bell said:

In Buxton's case, are we dealing with an ongoing injury or is this some maintenance? I do think they owe it to the fans who support the team by buying gear and tickets to tell us what is going on.

I'm not sure where I heard it (it wasn't a quote from the FO so was probably more 'supposing'), but because he was out so long last season with the hip thing, they don't want him to push it this early on in the season when he's experiencing soreness. It's still kind of a non-answer because then you just want to say, okay ... put him on the IL then. Then I ask, why bother with that? There is no one to come back up to take his place other than Godoy or Kirilloff, and neither of them needs to be here. So ... you treat Buxton as if he's injured, but have him play every so often. It's kind of an in between solution between IL and active roster. Maybe call it 'work hardening', which is something my industry does with players returning from injuries. But I don't know. Yes ... it's irritating, especially since this team does so much better with him playing. At this point I just never expect him to play and it's surprising when he does. But putting him on the IL does absolutely nothing when there is no one to come back up in his place.

[Nine of twelve]

I tire of many of the attitudes regarding Buxton that come through on these threads. I wish people would understand that their opinions, assumptions, and guesses are not facts. We don't know everything that Baldelli, Buxton, the medical staff, and the front office know about this situation or any other.

Baldelli has said that he thinks Buxton is an outstanding player. (Didn't he say the best player in the world?) For that reason I feel pretty certain that he and the front office want Buxton to play as much as possible. I have the strong impression that Buxton wants to play as much as possible. I highly doubt that he is being held out of the lineup for the purpose of preventing him from attaining contract incentives.

I strongly believe that the decisions regarding his playing time are being made with the goal of maximizing Buxton's and the team's performance. I think the FO would IL him if it was known that he needed to be out for 10 days. I know it's part of being a fan to want to criticize and second-guess decisions but in some cases I wish people would just chill out and accept that this is being handled as well as it can be.

[Dave The Dastardly]

39 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

I think that's what has been done and is being done.

15 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

The best possible plan is to hire a talented medical team and follow their advice.

 

First off I'm intelligent enough to know most doctors are smarter than I am. I can only recall meeting a couple doctors over the past 70-odd years that I wouldn't trust to treat my dog and one of them damn near killed me. So doctors aren't infallible. Secondly, most doctors I've met socially have complained about the cost of liability insurance, of being sued for getting a diagnosis "wrong", of offering the wrong opinion. As a result they tend to venture conservative opinions.

Okay, say you're a doctor and you've been retained to venture a medical opinion on the physical status of a multi-millionaire baseball player who is always in the news. "Doc, can he play or not? If he does play, what are the chances he will be injured again?

What's the "safest" answer?

[Nine of twelve]

34 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

Sorry, but I really don’t think the Buxton situation is comparable to Mauer at all. The response to Mauer was often over the top. He was an aging catcher, Buxton is in the prime years of his potential physical fitness

 

In 2011, the year of Mauer's bilateral leg weakness, Mauer was 28 years old. In 2022 Buxton is 28 years old.

[Nine of twelve]

I have a couple other thoughts.

One, as far as I know, teams are not obligated to publicize the exact nature of an injury, nor are they obligated to comment on a player's eligibility other than to notify MLB when a player is placed on the IL. In fact, strategically speaking, it would be better for a team not to reveal whether a player is able to play or not. For example, would it have changed Carl Willis' managing yesterday if it had been publicized before the game that Buxton would not be available?

Two, HIPAA gives a player the right to keep details of his medical situation confidential, even from the team. What I don't know about this is whether it's included a player's contract that he waives that right.

[The_Phantom]

17 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

In 2011, the year of Mauer's bilateral leg weakness, Mauer was 28 years old. In 2022 Buxton is 28 years old.

Eh, fair enough, but the positional difference and the pure elite athleticism of Buxton are still accurate.

[Nine of twelve]

8 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

Eh, fair enough, but the positional difference and the pure elite athleticism of Buxton are still accurate.

Mauer is one of the purest athletes to come from Minnesota since Dave Winfield. He accepted a full scholarship to play quarterback at Florida State. He was All-State for two years in high school as a point guard in basketball. If Buxton "out-athletes" him it's not by much.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, The_Phantom said:

Sorry, but I really don’t think the Buxton situation is comparable to Mauer at all. The response to Mauer was often over the top. He was an aging catcher, Buxton is in the prime years of his potential physical fitness and is an ultra athlete who just signed a pretty lengthy deal that was largely based on how many plate appearances he gets. I don’t think there’s anything bullyish about getting excited at the idea that he has an incentive to play more nor getting frustrated that he’s seemingly just taking every 3rd game off for “precaution”. Especially when he’s seemingly healthy and there were 4 or 5 spots that the obvious move was to put in Buxton. And Rocco’s excuse was “well that’s not what we planned before the game started”.

 
then what exactly are you “managing” if you’re told a game plan before the game and it’s ironclad 

Just to clarify... you are saying that Joe Mauer was an "aging" 28 year old catcher at the time of his leg weakness and Byron Buxton is in "the prime years" at the age of 28 so therefore my statement about why we (collectively) don't get (or deserve) information because of how we (collectively) respond to the information that we do get... is not comparable at all.  I just want to make sure that I understand.  

I've bolded 5 words in your post. After you re-read your thought that I bolded.

I have one question.

Is it possible that you have the capability and the inclination to make up your own narrative without all the information that went into a decision by someone else, followed by taking that narrative to the conclusion level before posting it on social media, which in turn blurs the lines to the point where others can't recall where they got information that they echo. 

Here is Rocco's quote from the Tribune: "He wasn't going to get in the game and get loose and fire up and get in the cage. It would take a while for him to get ready to go out there," he said. "… We discussed that as a group, but ultimately, I make that decision. When we make the decision before the game, we don't change what we're going to do when the game gets going."

We all want the information, Rocco provided some information, you hung him for the information and replaced it with yours.  

I'm sorry but I believe you became the instant personification of my post that you quoted and disagreed with.

I'll say it again... We (Collectively) are the reason for why we (including me) have to wonder around in the dark. We will beat to a pulp anyone who turns the light on. 

 

 

[wabene]

I'm sorry but this thread is just ridiculous. The incentives for all involved are for Buxton to play. If the right decision is to rest or play him, that is what will happen. Why? Because the people making the decisions are not morons.

Kind of like our healthcare system. The incentives are for profit. A few people are getting incredibly rich.

[Whitey333]

Buxton situation is continues to be strange.  Almost as strange as our manager Baldelli.  Nothing made sense with this yesterday.  I would like someone to explain to me why he needs a day off after only playing in 22 games so far and many of them at DH.  Baldellis management style has been baffling to me since he's been here.  Unless injured, sit Buxton on the road only. People pay to see him.  Simply put if he's not injured he should be playing.  People said Pohlads got a great deal by signing Buxton on the cheap for $100 mil for seven years.  Not bad for a seven year part time player.  As a Twins fan I have no idea what this club is doing.  They are only in first place because of playing in the worst division in baseball.  They look very poor against good teams.  The next 18 games are against the A's Royals and Tigers.  Injuries or no, they need to win most of those games.  Not too many of those great prospects called up are doing that well.  Baldelli sat others and refused to put them in the lineup earlier in the year with Correa in particular.  Twins were given the win by the rotten team they were playing so people didn't say much.  Scheduled day off?  Team be damned cuz Baldelli cannot handle in game management.  Baldelli has to go, especially if we don't win a significant amount of the next.18 games.

[mnfireman]

33 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

For example, would it have changed Carl Willis' managing yesterday if it had been publicized before the game that Buxton would not be available?

 

I think anybody who's watched this team the last couple of years knows that when Baldelli gives a guy that has nagging injuries the day off, he has the whole day off (see Cruz, Donaldson, Garver, Buxton, Polanco, Jeffers, Correa...). Willis basically only had to prepare for the starting line-up and make bullpen moves accordingly.

[Nine of twelve]

2 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

 I have no idea what this club is doing. 

This is the portion of your post I agree with.

[wabene]

1 minute ago, Whitey333 said:

Buxton situation is continues to be strange.  Almost as strange as our manager Baldelli.  Nothing made sense with this yesterday.  I would like someone to explain to me why he needs a day off after only playing in 22 games so far and many of them at DH.  Baldellis management style has been baffling to me since he's been here.  Unless injured, sit Buxton on the road only. People pay to see him.  Simply put if he's not injured he should be playing.  People said Pohlads got a great deal by signing Buxton on the cheap for $100 mil for seven years.  Not bad for a seven year part time player.  As a Twins fan I have no idea what this club is doing.  They are only in first place because of playing in the worst division in baseball.  They look very poor against good teams.  The next 18 games are against the A's Royals and Tigers.  Injuries or no, they need to win most of those games.  Not too many of those great prospects called up are doing that well.  Baldelli sat others and refused to put them in the lineup earlier in the year with Correa in particular.  Twins were given the win by the rotten team they were playing so people didn't say much.  Scheduled day off?  Team be damned cuz Baldelli cannot handle in game management.  Baldelli has to go, especially if we don't win a significant amount of the next.18 games.

It is quite remarkable that you and I share the same interest in the Twins, but I read your post and don't not share any opinion with you. Your post may as well be in a foreign language.

Do people really believe Baldelli is making decisions alone and against the will of others? C'mon now that is just dumbfounding. 

[wabene]

Baldelli the rogue agent of the Twins demise, ha ha ha. I crack myself up.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

16 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

I'm sure it's not just Rocco's decision. The conspiracy theory in me thinks maybe the FO doesn't want him to hit incentives in the contract - Pohlad's don't want to pay more. ?

Specifically what are the incentives in Buck's contract?

[Doctor Gast]

To me it seems that Buck isn't 100% but he and the fans want him to play so they try to manage him the best as they can. It'd be great if he could play CF on home games but I'd guess they guage if he plays by the degree of discomfort he has on any given day. I'm sure they're in contact with him on a daily basis. Trying to play through notable discomfort can cause worse consequences that nobody wants. I'm just happy whenever he gets to play.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

11 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I don't know. But just for comparison look at what's going on with Kirilloff. The Twins are saying 1 thing and the Kirilloff camp is saying something completely different.  

What are the 2 sides saying?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

48 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Just to clarify... you are saying that Joe Mauer was an "aging" 28 year old catcher at the time of his leg weakness and Byron Buxton is in "the prime years" at the age of 28 so therefore my statement about why we (collectively) don't get (or deserve) information because of how we (collectively) respond to the information that we do get... is not comparable at all.  I just want to make sure that I understand.  

I've bolded 5 words in your post. After you re-read your thought that I bolded.

I have one question.

Is it possible that you have the capability and the inclination to make up your own narrative without all the information that went into a decision by someone else, followed by taking that narrative to the conclusion level before posting it on social media, which in turn blurs the lines to the point where others can't recall where they got information that they echo. 

Here is Rocco's quote from the Tribune: "He wasn't going to get in the game and get loose and fire up and get in the cage. It would take a while for him to get ready to go out there," he said. "… We discussed that as a group, but ultimately, I make that decision. When we make the decision before the game, we don't change what we're going to do when the game gets going."

We all want the information, Rocco provided some information, you hung him for the information and replaced it with yours.  

I'm sorry but I believe you became the instant personification of my post that you quoted and disagreed with.

I'll say it again... We (Collectively) are the reason for why we (including me) have to wonder around in the dark. We will beat to a pulp anyone who turns the light on. 

 

 

"wander around in the dark" ?

[Squirrel]

8 minutes ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

What are the 2 sides saying?

This was asked and answered in thread, here:

 

[The_Phantom]

45 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Just to clarify... you are saying that Joe Mauer was an "aging" 28 year old catcher at the time of his leg weakness and Byron Buxton is in "the prime years" at the age of 28 so therefore my statement about why we (collectively) don't get (or deserve) information because of how we (collectively) respond to the information that we do get... is not comparable at all.  I just want to make sure that I understand.  

I've bolded 5 words in your post. After you re-read your thought that I bolded.

I have one question.

Is it possible that you have the capability and the inclination to make up your own narrative without all the information that went into a decision by someone else, followed by taking that narrative to the conclusion level before posting it on social media, which in turn blurs the lines to the point where others can't recall where they got information that they echo. 

Here is Rocco's quote from the Tribune: "He wasn't going to get in the game and get loose and fire up and get in the cage. It would take a while for him to get ready to go out there," he said. "… We discussed that as a group, but ultimately, I make that decision. When we make the decision before the game, we don't change what we're going to do when the game gets going."

We all want the information, Rocco provided some information, you hung him for the information and replaced it with yours.  

I'm sorry but I believe you became the instant personification of my post that you quoted and disagreed with.

I'll say it again... We (Collectively) are the reason for why we (including me) have to wonder around in the dark. We will beat to a pulp anyone who turns the light on. 

 

 

Yes actually you’re right. There is a very “bullyish” attitude here and it comes from *your* condescending tone. That whole post was absurd and argumentative, at best,

 

All I will respond to is the quote that you bolded. Don’t you believe that that is an issue that there is a game plan before the game and it’s stuck to, no matter what happens on the field?
 
What if someone *else* got injured? What if it went deep into extras? Baseball is a very fluid game, and on one hand saying “this is purely precautionary” and the other hand saying “there is no way, no how he is getting in the game because talked about it and we (I) decided that before the game started”. Just sounds like some dishonesty there.

 
And really, ultimately, we are a paying audience. We are pretty entitled to have an opinion on what we see and what we hear from these guys, who are being paid to perform. It’s a bit of a strange take to act like we’re not and we’re ‘bullying’ high dollar athletes that never read what you or I say. 

 

[Rosterman]

I'm all for giving a guy a day off. Or rotating him  into the DH position. But if the opportunity is there to break a tie game, or maybe tie it up in the 10th, does a day off mean you can't come off the bench and maybe hit? Might as well be sitting in the stands, then.

[Riverbrian]

11 minutes ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

"wander around in the dark" ?

Personally... I'm in the Dark "Wondering"? 

[The Mad King]

... Healthy enough to start in center today ...

[Riverbrian]

26 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

Yes actually you’re right. There is a very “bullyish” attitude here and it comes from *your* condescending tone. That whole post was absurd and argumentative, at best,

 

I responded to String with my explanation of why we don't get the whole story. You responded to that response to String. I responded to your response. I feel the need to point out how we got here. 

 

31 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

 

All I will respond to is the quote that you bolded. Don’t you believe that that is an issue that there is a game plan before the game and it’s stuck to, no matter what happens on the field?
 

 

I don't have an issue with anything when I lack the information necessary to determine if I should have an issue. 

38 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

 
What if someone *else* got injured? What if it went deep into extras? Baseball is a very fluid game, and on one hand saying “this is purely precautionary” and the other hand saying “there is no way, no how he is getting in the game because talked about it and we (I) decided that before the game started”. Just sounds like some dishonesty there.

 

Do you honestly not see how you are doing exactly what I said people do? Rocco provides a quote to the Trib and you took that quote, stretched it to your specifications so you can hang him with your interpretation of his words. After awhile... People who get subjected to that sort of thing... Just shut up 

It's like if I said... I'm not leaving the house today and you called your friends to say... What if the roof is on fire and you go on to tell them that I was going to sit in the house while it burns to the ground. 

 

1 hour ago, The_Phantom said:

 
And really, ultimately, we are a paying audience. We are pretty entitled to have an opinion on what we see and what we hear from these guys, who are being paid to perform. It’s a bit of a strange take to act like we’re not and we’re ‘bullying’ high dollar athletes that never read what you or I say. 

 

Yep... that's always the explanation. We are entitled to treat others this way.