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What is the status of Simeon Woods Richardson?


I was just curious about our prospects that the Twins received in the Berrios trade and was completely baffled what I saw when I looked him up.

 

Can anyone explain what this means.

 

Wichita Wind Surge transferred RHP Simeon Woods Richardson to the Development List.

 

I have never heard of it and an insight would be greatly appreciated.

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10 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Rather than send him to Florida, he can work out with the team for x-amount of time, like a rehab almost. They have done this with other recent additions.

The only other Twins minor leaguer I can find who was officially transferred to "Development List" this season was Joe Kuzia, a 27 year old reliever project. And his transfer to the list was a prelude to being released, after he had already scuffled through 6 appearances with Wichita. Not that I expect that fate for Woods Richardson. :)

I guess they just wanted some extra time to stretch out Woods Richardson, who as far as I can tell, didn't actually pitch in any games during the Olympics in July, which may have put him behind Joe Ryan a bit in terms of readiness to return (Ryan is scheduled to make his 2nd Saints start tomorrow).

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On 8/23/2021 at 10:25 PM, darin617 said:

I was just curious about our prospects that the Twins received in the Berrios trade and was completely baffled what I saw when I looked him up.

 

Can anyone explain what this means.

 

Wichita Wind Surge transferred RHP Simeon Woods Richardson to the Development List.

 

I have never heard of it and an insight would be greatly appreciated.

My guess is he is having trouble finding the strike zone in his bullpen sessions, and there is this new roster status that they can use to keep from making a roster move yet. But that's just a guess.

It's anybody's guess why he is ranked higher than Ryan. 

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1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

Looks like he last pitched July 15. It is probably wise to use bullpens to build him back up. I doubt it is about how he is throwing.

It was only a guess. 

It’s hard to imagine he needs very much building back up from a baseline; that assumes he wasn’t throwing much at all during his Olympics trip, which wouldn’t make sense to me. 

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37 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Woods Richardson would be more in the 10-20 range for me. Is age and level the best thing in his favor?

No, he has three pitches and the ability to miss bats. He jumped from not pitching in 2020 straight to AA where his ERA is ugly, his control is suddenly spotty (not a problem before now), but he's still missing A TON of bats.

And he's doing this as a 20 year old. He's the type of guy where if he regains his previous control and maintains missing bats - which has never been a problem for him - he could be pitching in Minnesota as a 21 year old.

That's why he's ranked higher than Joe Ryan.

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16 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

No, he has three pitches and the ability to miss bats. He jumped from not pitching in 2020 straight to AA where his ERA is ugly, his control is suddenly spotty (not a problem before now), but he's still missing A TON of bats.

And he's doing this as a 20 year old. He's the type of guy where if he regains his previous control and maintains missing bats - which has never been a problem for him - he could be pitching in Minnesota as a 21 year old.

That's why he's ranked higher than Joe Ryan.

Frankly, I think Toronto did him no favors by promoting him up to AA this season. We talk all the time on this site about 2020 being a lost year for pitcher development but with Wood Richardson that lost year can be seen as a good sign? I wonder if another quick stop in High A would have been better for him.

And I have concerns that he’s been passed around a couple organizations already. You don’t see the Walker Buehler types being traded back and forth (or maybe you do and I have missed them). Could be something; could be nothing. Thanks—maybe we can pick this up later.

 

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59 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

No, he has three pitches and the ability to miss bats. He jumped from not pitching in 2020 straight to AA where his ERA is ugly, his control is suddenly spotty (not a problem before now), but he's still missing A TON of bats.

And he's doing this as a 20 year old. He's the type of guy where if he regains his previous control and maintains missing bats - which has never been a problem for him - he could be pitching in Minnesota as a 21 year old.

That's why he's ranked higher than Joe Ryan.

SWR has faced 705 batters in his professional career, and struck out 219 of them (31.1%).

JR has faced 877 batters in his professional career, and struck out 326 of them (37.2%).

 

Tell me more about how SWR is ranked ahead of Joe Ryan because of his ability to miss bats.

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9 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

SWR has faced 705 batters in his professional career, and struck out 219 of them (31.1%).

JR has faced 877 batters in his professional career, and struck out 326 of them (37.2%).

Tell me more about how SWR is ranked ahead of Joe Ryan because of his ability to miss bats.

Yes, that's exactly what I said and that's all I said. I didn't mention age, number of quality pitches, competition level, or anything else.

Only missing bats.

C'mon now.

SWR is pitching against AA competition in his age 20 season, literally one jump away from the majors in many cases. Joe Ryan's age 20 season was as a *sophomore* at Cal State Northridge.

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2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, that's exactly what I said and that's all I said. I didn't mention age, number of quality pitches, competition level, or anything else.

Only missing bats.

C'mon now.

You started by mentioning his ability to miss bats.  You then reiterated his ability to miss bats.  Sure, you mentioned some other things, but missing bats was clearly what you were most focused on.  The only thing SWR has going for him compared to Joe Ryan is that he's younger, give up fewer homeruns, and has a greater prospect pedigree.  If I gave you the lines of these two pitchers, including what level they were at, but gave no other identifying info whatsoever, everyone would much prefer Joe Ryan.

SWR has a 4.09 ERA, Joe Ryan is at 2.67.  SWR allows 29.4% of batters to reach via hit/walk, Joe Ryan is at 22.3%--Joe Ryan has actually given up 10 FEWER hits than SWR despite facing 172 MORE hitters.  At a certain point, production has to count for more than potential.

This isn't to say that SWR might not put it all together, and become Jose Berrios 2.0 (I think we can agree that's his realistic ceiling), and Joe Ryan might become Smeltzer/Thorpe 2.0, but if I had to bet on who was going to provide more WAR in their Twins career, I'm betting heavily on Ryan.

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7 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You started by mentioning his ability to miss bats.  You then reiterated his ability to miss bats.  Sure, you mentioned some other things, but missing bats was clearly what you were most focused on.  The only thing SWR has going for him compared to Joe Ryan is that he's younger, give up fewer homeruns, and has a greater prospect pedigree.  If I gave you the lines of these two pitchers, including what level they were at, but gave no other identifying info whatsoever, everyone would much prefer Joe Ryan.

SWR has a 4.09 ERA, Joe Ryan is at 2.67.  SWR allows 29.4% of batters to reach via hit/walk, Joe Ryan is at 22.3%--Joe Ryan has actually given up 10 FEWER hits than SWR despite facing 172 MORE hitters.  At a certain point, production has to count for more than potential.

This isn't to say that SWR might not put it all together, and become Jose Berrios 2.0 (I think we can agree that's his realistic ceiling), and Joe Ryan might become Smeltzer/Thorpe 2.0, but if I had to bet on who was going to provide more WAR in their Twins career, I'm betting heavily on Ryan.

I started with his ability to miss bats and then mentioned a bunch of other stuff. C'mon, man.

And you responded before I finished my edit. To reiterate:

SWR is pitching against AA competition in his age 20 season, literally one jump away from the majors in many cases. Joe Ryan's age 20 season was as a *sophomore* at Cal State Northridge.*

And that's WHY we don't evaluate prospects without accounting for age. It's a huge factor when speaking about two players who are five years apart in age but facing very similar competition today.

*For clarity, Ryan wasn't even very good during his age 20 season in college, which makes this comparison even funnier... because 20 year olds aren't even close to being finished products as baseball players. But 25 year olds? Yeah, they're a lot closer to being a finished product. Joe Ryan *should* be outperforming SWR because if he wasn't, Joe Ryan wouldn't be much of a prospect at this point.

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35 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I started with his ability to miss bats and then mentioned a bunch of other stuff. C'mon, man.

And you responded before I finished my edit. To reiterate:

SWR is pitching against AA competition in his age 20 season, literally one jump away from the majors in many cases. Joe Ryan's age 20 season was as a *sophomore* at Cal State Northridge.*

And that's WHY we don't evaluate prospects without accounting for age. It's a huge factor when speaking about two players who are five years apart in age but facing very similar competition today.

*For clarity, Ryan wasn't even very good during his age 20 season in college, which makes this comparison even funnier... because 20 year olds aren't even close to being finished products as baseball players. But 25 year olds? Yeah, they're a lot closer to being a finished product. Joe Ryan *should* be outperforming SWR because if he wasn't, Joe Ryan wouldn't be much of a prospect at this point.

Whoops, must've missed the "poster is editing this post" notification.

You're right, SWR is younger, and that has to be taken into account.  But what also has to be taken into account is that his numbers are nowhere near Joe Ryan's, so the idea that SWR is a better prospect at this point is built entirely on dreamcasting improvement that may or may not materialize.  As another poster pointed out, SWR has already been traded twice, for a couple of years of a #2 starter each time, and the teams trading him away were each long-ish shots to make the playoffs (NYM were 21.8% to make the playoffs on August 1, 2019.  TOR was 34.8% on August 1, 2021).  This suggests that those organizations were nervous about SWR's ability to meet his ceiling--if they thought he was pretty likely become a number 2 or better starter, they never would have given him up in a midseason trade during a season they were more likely to miss the playoffs than make them.

You're also probably right that Joe Ryan is close to a finished product.  Since the beginning of 2019, Ryan has struck out 37.7% of batters while only walking 5.3%, and has a better than 7.0 k/bb ratio.  His ERA is excellent at 2.47, and his 0.82 WHIP is spectacular.  Here's where those figures would rank amongst MLB starters this year; 1st, 11th, 1st (I used k-bb%, where Joe Ryan is at 32.4--highest in MLB is Burnes at 29.4), 5th, and 1st.

There's obviously a big gap between AAA and MLB, but the fact that Joe Ryan has put up MiLB numbers better than essentially any MLB pitcher has put up in the majors suggests we should be taking him a lot more seriously.

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On 8/24/2021 at 10:26 AM, Rosterman said:

Gilmartin also held that status.

Interesting. Was that when Gilmartin was first assigned to the FCL Twins this summer? That's the only time when he was healthy and not pitching.

But there are no roster size limits in the US rookie leagues, except "No more than 3 players with
4 or more years of minor-league experience" (Gilmartin would have been one of those, not sure about the rest of the roster).

FWIW, "Development List" doesn't appear in Gilmartin's transaction log:

image.png.5e0f0d79c63dd24a9a4d946832d54fd8.png

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4 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Frankly, I think Toronto did him no favors by promoting him up to AA this season. We talk all the time on this site about 2020 being a lost year for pitcher development but with Wood Richardson that lost year can be seen as a good sign? I wonder if another quick stop in High A would have been better for him.

And I have concerns that he’s been passed around a couple organizations already. You don’t see the Walker Buehler types being traded back and forth (or maybe you do and I have missed them). Could be something; could be nothing. Thanks—maybe we can pick this up later.

 

Remember when the Twins drafted Tyler Jay 6th  and Walker Buehler when 24th in 2015?  Not really related to this thread but thought I would bring it up so we can stop arguing about where a prospect is ranked and complain about that.

I hope Ryan and SWR end up be a sweet 1-2 starting combination in a few years.  And realistically their prospect ranking will hav no bearing on that.  That being said I am with Brock on this, Ryan is more MLB ready, but SWR probably has more upside due to age, etc and that is why he is ranked ahead.  

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1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Whoops, must've missed the "poster is editing this post" notification.

You're right, SWR is younger, and that has to be taken into account.  But what also has to be taken into account is that his numbers are nowhere near Joe Ryan's, so the idea that SWR is a better prospect at this point is built entirely on dreamcasting improvement that may or may not materialize.  As another poster pointed out, SWR has already been traded twice, for a couple of years of a #2 starter each time, and the teams trading him away were each long-ish shots to make the playoffs (NYM were 21.8% to make the playoffs on August 1, 2019.  TOR was 34.8% on August 1, 2021).  This suggests that those organizations were nervous about SWR's ability to meet his ceiling--if they thought he was pretty likely become a number 2 or better starter, they never would have given him up in a midseason trade during a season they were more likely to miss the playoffs than make them.

You're also probably right that Joe Ryan is close to a finished product.  Since the beginning of 2019, Ryan has struck out 37.7% of batters while only walking 5.3%, and has a better than 7.0 k/bb ratio.  His ERA is excellent at 2.47, and his 0.82 WHIP is spectacular.  Here's where those figures would rank amongst MLB starters this year; 1st, 11th, 1st (I used k-bb%, where Joe Ryan is at 32.4--highest in MLB is Burnes at 29.4), 5th, and 1st.

There's obviously a big gap between AAA and MLB, but the fact that Joe Ryan has put up MiLB numbers better than essentially any MLB pitcher has put up in the majors suggests we should be taking him a lot more seriously.

What does the Rays trading Joe Ryan say about him? If Ryan is basically a finished product and the Rays are trying to make the playoffs and are running out guys like Josh Fleming for 99 innings despite his 1.3 WHIP, 4.71 ERA, and only 62 K's why wouldn't they want Ryan to take his spot since his minor league numbers suggest he's so good in your opinion?

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56 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

What does the Rays trading Joe Ryan say about him? If Ryan is basically a finished product and the Rays are trying to make the playoffs and are running out guys like Josh Fleming for 99 innings despite his 1.3 WHIP, 4.71 ERA, and only 62 K's why wouldn't they want Ryan to take his spot since his minor league numbers suggest he's so good in your opinion?

It says that the Rays were in need of a DH, so they went out and got the best one they could to try to make sure they didn't lose the world series again this year.   The cost was their 10th and 17th best prospects (Ryan and Strotman).  That's all.  It doesn't mean the Rays didn't think Ryan isn't a good pitcher, it was just the price that had to be paid to get one of the best hitters in baseball. 

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6 minutes ago, James said:

It says that the Rays were in need of a DH, so they went out and got the best one they could to try to make sure they didn't lose the world series again this year.   The cost was their 10th and 17th best prospects (Ryan and Strotman).  That's all.  It doesn't mean the Rays didn't think Ryan isn't a good pitcher, it was just the price that had to be paid to get one of the best hitters in baseball. 

Agreed. My comment was in response to another poster stating that SWR having been traded meant the trading team didn't think he was going to reach his ceiling so Ryan was a better prospect while ignoring the fact that Ryan was also traded. I'm a fan of Ryan and SWR and was simply pointing out the fault in their logic of "he was traded so isn't as good as this guy, who was also traded."

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7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

in response to another poster stating that SWR having been traded meant the trading team didn't think he was going to reach his ceiling so Ryan was a better prospect while ignoring the fact that Ryan was also traded. I'm a fan of Ryan and SWR and was simply pointing out the fault in their logic of "he was traded so isn't as good as this guy, who was also traded."

Traded twice, though?

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8 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Traded twice, though?

I guess I don't see it as that big of a difference. Just means 2 teams had needs for current major leaguers and were able to get 2 highly regarded pitchers for him. Don't know why being part of trades for 2 of the better pitchers in the game should be a mark against him.

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On 8/23/2021 at 10:25 PM, darin617 said:

Can anyone explain what this means.

 

Wichita Wind Surge transferred RHP Simeon Woods Richardson to the Development List.

 

I have never heard of it and an insight would be greatly appreciated.

It's a new roster status implemented, if not this year, very recently. Think of it like the Injury List (IL), but not for injuries. Some info for reference I pulled from the MLB rules section of thecubreporter.com:

A player on Optional Assignment from an MLB Reserve List (40-man roster) can be placed onto the Development List of the minor league affiliate to which he has been optioned, but only with consent of the player.  

A player cannot be placed on the Development List for the purpose of injury rehabilitation or disciplinary action.

A player can be placed on the Development List only during his minor league club's regular season, the player must remain on the Development List for at least seven days, and the player must be reinstated from the Developmental List no later than the day after the conclusion of his minor league club's season.

A player on the Development List counts against the in-season minor league 180-man Domestic Reserve List (or MLB 40-man roster if the player is on Optional Assignment), but he does not count against the minor league club's Active List roster.  

A player is paid by the MLB club while he is on the Development List.  

------------------------------

So, because it's been so long since Woods Richardson has pitched (he only warmed up a couple times during the Olympics), the Twins and him agreed to basically give him some extra time to get back into pitching shape (and maybe work on something they wanted him to work on) by putting him on that list, before getting him back into action.

For further reference, that "180-man Domestic Reserve List" is essentially the combination of all 40-man rosters of the MiLB teams (which aren't actually 40-man's, just using the term for understanding). These come into play during the minor league portions of the Rule 5 draft, and the lists are not made public. 

Back in the day when Max Kepler was eligible for the Rule 5 draft, but still had only played at High-A to that point, I asked Baseball America how likely it was he'd be selected if left unprotected and a bunch of other stuff about the reserve lists and rule 5 draft. (the link to the BA article in the below thread doesn't appear to work anymore)

In his answer (which was published on their site), JJ Cooper explained how those minor league reserve rosters worked, and in reference to Kepler it was basically that he likely wouldn't be selected in the MLB portion of the draft because he wasn't that far up the ladder, but also couldn't be selected in the minor league phase because he was assuredly on the reserve list of the triple-A team (Rochester), even though he had only played at High-A (Fort Myers). 

Edited by Steve Lein
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35 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I guess I don't see it as that big of a difference. Just means 2 teams had needs for current major leaguers and were able to get 2 highly regarded pitchers for him. Don't know why being part of trades for 2 of the better pitchers in the game should be a mark against him.

This. Highly regarded (and healthy) college arms are in the minors 1-2 year…it’s going to be more like 3-4 for the high school guys. Plenty of time to be offered up twice (or more) for immediate help.

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