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How will stats be counted with extra innings runner automatically on 2nd?


Drake2020
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For the 2020 season only, I can live with putting an automatic baserunner on 2nd base for each inning after the 9th.  But I think MLB should iron out some qualifying rules to the scoring plays if that runner scores, picked off, runs into a double play, or steals a base.

 

First, if any batter drives in the ghost runner, said batter should not get credit for an RBI since the runner didn't earn his way on base via hit, walk or error.  He's just a free duck on the pond sent out there to speed up the game.  By not awarding an RBI to the batter for driving in the ghost runner, career RBI stats would still be legit when comparing across the decades.  All other scoring plays after the ghost runner scores should be counted the traditional way.

 

Second, if the ghost runner scores on a base hit or scores on a bases loaded walk, the run should not count against the pitcher's ERA.  It's not the pitcher's fault he was on base to begin with.  All other earned runs after the ghost runner scores should be counted against the pitcher's ERA the traditional way.

 

Third, a ghost runner can steal if he wants, but should not get credit for a stolen base because he did not earn his way on base and did not take the place of a previous runner that earned his way on base.  Likewise, if a pitcher picks off the ghost runner, the pitcher should not get credit for a pickoff, nor should a catcher get credit for a caught stealing if he throws out the runner on an attempted steal.  The ghost runner should  not get a mark against him for being caught stealing either.

 

Finally, if a batter hits into a double play involving the ghost runner, it should count as two outs, but it should not be recorded as a double play.

 

My reasons for the above is to maintain the integrity of historical statistics. MLB can come up with revised box scores for 2020 to document the scoring action, maybe add some new language or columns in the stat boxes. These are my thoughts and maybe it has already been addressed.  Do you agree?

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It's been announced that the pitcher will not get charged with an earned run.

Thanks, I was totally against this idea but this makes it more plausible but should all of this not count except only on the scoreboard? Good question. W/ all the stress having a man on 2nd there should be something counted

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First, if any batter drives in the ghost runner, said batter should not get credit for an RBI since the runner didn't earn his way on base via hit, walk or error. 

 

Second, if the ghost runner scores on a base hit or scores on a bases loaded walk, the run should not count against the pitcher's ERA.

 

Third, a ghost runner can steal if he wants, but should not get credit for a stolen base because he did not earn his way on base and did not take the place of a previous runner that earned his way on base.

 

Finally, if a batter hits into a double play involving the ghost runner, it should count as two outs, but it should not be recorded as a double play.

If in a normal inning the first guy to bat reaches second base on an error, do you feel like penalizing his stats (or that of someone who drives him in) for base running which follows? Why is this different?

 

Or, if in a normal inning the first guy to bat hits a clean double but is injured in the process and a pinch runner is brought in, do you want to penalize the new runner likewise?

 

Once this new extra innings "ghost runner" is in, he performs all the athletic actions necessary to his role on the team, just like the cases I named. I see no reason to treat it specially in the stat book. It'll be a new era where offense is inflated by another tiny percent, and we've seen more drastic changes to the game's numbers than that through the years.

 

As a final observation, the scorekeeping is already settled - they've been operating under these rules for some time now in the minors. The question about earned runs, as has already been noted, is answered in the negative. I am checking, but my belief is that the simplest rule of thumb for answering scorebook decisions is to treat the initial runner as having reached base via a two-base error* - proceed from there.

 

* Edit - Actually, I did check with Twins official scorer Stew Thornley, and he confirmed this, with the suggestion to think of it like a catcher's interference - the batter is awarded a base but there is no presumption that an out should have been recorded, for the purpose of reconstructing the inning to assess earned versus unearned runs. Of course there is no two-base CI, so there is not a perfect analogy for the new extra-inning rule.

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Thanks for checking on that ashbury.  The problem I have with stats as related to the automatic runner on second, is neither team did anything during the course of play for him to be there.  It would be as abitrary as saying 'let's put a free runner on base every time Mike Trout comes to bat if the bases are empty.'  If he hits a two run homer, he is credited with two RBIs. I just don't like how that is going to be recorded on the score sheets.  

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Really hope they don't try and sneak this rule in for 2021. There are a lot of "Engagement Specialists" working at MLB that have no interest in baseball, who are trying to get more and more of these Mickey Mouse rules into the game because they think it'll help social media metrics. Another good example is the expanded playoffs. More teams in the playoffs, more of their fans stick around to watch/tweet/etc.

 

2020 only, please.

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Really hope they don't try and sneak this rule in for 2021. There are a lot of "Engagement Specialists" working at MLB that have no interest in baseball, who are trying to get more and more of these Mickey Mouse rules into the game because they think it'll help social media metrics. Another good example is the expanded playoffs. More teams in the playoffs, more of their fans stick around to watch/tweet/etc.

 

2020 only, please.

NFL changes the rules like this (over times rules, etc) quite a bit, and is growing in popularity, while MLB does not, and is shrinking in popularity. Maybe it’s time to change things up a bit
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Thanks for checking on that ashbury.  The problem I have with stats as related to the automatic runner on second, is neither team did anything during the course of play for him to be there.  It would be as abitrary as saying 'let's put a free runner on base every time Mike Trout comes to bat if the bases are empty.'  If he hits a two run homer, he is credited with two RBIs. I just don't like how that is going to be recorded on the score sheets.  

Since the runner isn't being placed on account of who is coming to bat, I don't think that's a strong analogy, and I don't see a reason to deprive the batter of his reward for success. Baseball, like most sports, is "memoryless" - the athlete is taught to put aside whatever brought about the current situation, and simply to achieve the most with the situation he is presented with. Goes for the batter, goes for the pitcher - "ok, there's a guy on second with nobody out - what's your move?"

 

I should probably state that I don't actually like the gimmick of putting the man on second. Then again, I don't like extra innings very much in the first place, especially if I'm in attendance and it's a night game in April. So I probably don't like any solution.

 

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Twins had 12 extra inning games last year for a total of 33 extra innings.  The rule itself will probably cut down the extra innings and over 60 games that comes out to roughly one extra running chance per player and maybe 3 extra rbi opportunities per player, probably less when considering the same 9 players generally don't play every game..  In this situation I would be surprised if there were more than 10 stolen bases all year across the majors this season.    It probably comes out statistically to around 1 extra rbi and one extra run scored per player.   Statistically insignificant and if some one can beat that average in a significant way more power to them.   Its also roughly the same odds for every player across the league to get that extra running or batting chance so its also fair and comparative.    It doesn't give any one player better odds.

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For the 2020 season only, I can live with putting an automatic baserunner on 2nd base for each inning after the 9th.  But I think MLB should iron out some qualifying rules to the scoring plays if that runner scores, picked off, runs into a double play, or steals a base.

 

First, if any batter drives in the ghost runner, said batter should not get credit for an RBI since the runner didn't earn his way on base via hit, walk or error.  He's just a free duck on the pond sent out there to speed up the game.  By not awarding an RBI to the batter for driving in the ghost runner, career RBI stats would still be legit when comparing across the decades.  All other scoring plays after the ghost runner scores should be counted the traditional way.

 

Second, if the ghost runner scores on a base hit or scores on a bases loaded walk, the run should not count against the pitcher's ERA.  It's not the pitcher's fault he was on base to begin with.  All other earned runs after the ghost runner scores should be counted against the pitcher's ERA the traditional way.

 

Third, a ghost runner can steal if he wants, but should not get credit for a stolen base because he did not earn his way on base and did not take the place of a previous runner that earned his way on base.  Likewise, if a pitcher picks off the ghost runner, the pitcher should not get credit for a pickoff, nor should a catcher get credit for a caught stealing if he throws out the runner on an attempted steal.  The ghost runner should  not get a mark against him for being caught stealing either.

 

Finally, if a batter hits into a double play involving the ghost runner, it should count as two outs, but it should not be recorded as a double play.

 

My reasons for the above is to maintain the integrity of historical statistics. MLB can come up with revised box scores for 2020 to document the scoring action, maybe add some new language or columns in the stat boxes. These are my thoughts and maybe it has already been addressed.  Do you agree?

 

Might as well use the same rules that they've been using in the minor leagues the last year or two. It works fine. 

 

That "ghost runner" is an unearned run. Other than that, pretty much everything else stays the same. 

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How many away pitchers are just going to walk the very first batter they face in the bottom of the inning to set up the force at 3rd? And if not the first batter, the second (should the first batter gets out)? Somewhere between 90-100%?

 

Depends on the team, the manager, whether they're the home or road team. This isn't new to baseball, just new to MLB. Strategies have been developed for a few years now.

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I like the fact you could end the previous inning hitting into a double play, and then the score the winning run the next inning without an at bat. (actually I hate the rule, hate it in softball as well, but at least in softball it makes sense since the next game needs to start)

 

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Look. The entire season deserves an asterisk and just the basic stuff should count. I don't think it will hurt or help any player's chances of getting into the Hall of Fame if they are close. Putting a runner on second to start an inning makes no sense and should not have been put into place. Next thing you know they will eliminate the pitcher in the 11th inning and have everyone hit off a tee.

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Haven't seen this asked but what happens if a pitcher is pitching a perfect game that is 0-0 after 9 innings and then pitches in the 10th inning and records 3 outs without the run scoring then his team scores in the bottom of the 10th to win the game? Is it still a perfect game? With an asterisk?

 

As to the writer of the first post, I ask why give a batter who gets hit by a pitch with the bases loaded an RBI? He didn't do anything to cause the run to be scored. The player is out there. If he steals, give him a stolen base, etc. but if he scores, it's an unearned run. 

 

Now let's play ball.

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NFL changes the rules like this (over times rules, etc) quite a bit, and is growing in popularity, while MLB does not, and is shrinking in popularity. Maybe it’s time to change things up a bi

 

 

Is "growing in popularity" the only thing we care about?

 

The NBA is popular. It's not even a sporting event anymore, it's a place you take 12 year-olds for birthday parties.

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Is "growing in popularity" the only thing we care about?

 

The NBA is popular. It's not even a sporting event anymore, it's a place you take 12 year-olds for birthday parties.

it’s not “the only thing” however, it’s a “big thing”. Growing or dying. There is no middle. I agree that the NBA is an extreme. It’s an extreme because they rested on their laurels too long.

 

Change is good. Small things to keep the game moving and engaging with a broader audience is good.

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I think change is good for the growth of the sport. And baseball changes so very little. And change doesn't have to decrease the integrity of the sport. I greatly prefer the recent change to overtime in the NFL. I always hated the first time that scores wins. I don't have any statistical data available at the moment but my perception/memory was that the team that won the coin flip won the majority of the time. One decent drive, one big interference penalty, and a field goal later and the game is done. In the new rule, of course, a successful FG gives the other team an opportunity. Only an initial TD finishez the game.

 

Whether you like the college OT rule or not, after 2 OT, I believe, teams must go for a TD, no FG allowed.

 

I can understand, while not liking, the extra inning rule for milb with a runner on 2nd. I'm not sure how it applies to MLB in a shortened season unless they they will have less days off and more double headers. But I also say just for 2020. BUT, if it is to continue, then it should implemented only after 2-3 standard extra innings, IMO.

 

In regard to statistics, I agree the pitcher should not be charged with a run scored. But on reflection, I do believe the runner and batter should have their statistics counted. The RBI should count at the very least as the batter did accomplish his function, no matter how the runner arrived on the field. And really, how many extra inning games can we expect in a 60 game season? 10-15 would seem abnormally large to me, but let's run with it. Say it's as high as 15 and the Twins win 10 of those. That's only 10 RBI split between a potential dozen or more hitters. I don't see any statistical anomalies involved.

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If this rule carries over for years to come, then maybe need to address possible scoring change for the baseball purists that will site numbers like RBI or runs scored for greatness or hall of fame.  In reality, this will change the offensive numbers of the players on a team very minimally.  In 60 games, very few will go into extra innings.  The ones that do, there will be very few extra chances.  At the end of the year, bet a player at best may get 2-5 RBI extra, that is at best and I bet no player will really get more than 2.  Think of the odds the same player keeps getting up in extra innings with these chances and keeps driving in the runs.  Extremely low.  Sure, maybe some player will be like Mr. 3000, the Bernie Mac movie, that once they reach whatever RBI or run score number they feel will put them a lock for HOF they will retire on the spot, only to find out baseball years later decided to not count his couple of RBI in these games.  This will not swing any MVP decisions, or HOF votes the couple extra RBI you may get over the 60 game season. 

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If the initial extra inning runner on 2B scores, I don't think he should get credit for a "RUN".

Same general logic applies to pinch runners - "they weren't good enough to be in the starting lineup and yet there they are, vulturing a run" - but we've always counted the runs they eventually come around to score.

 

Guys receiving intentional walks are also gifted part of the way toward the run they score.

 

These also have about as much overall impact on the game and its stats as this extra inning rule does.

 

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Same general logic applies to pinch runners - "they weren't good enough to be in the starting lineup and yet there they are, vulturing a run" - but we've always counted the runs they eventually come around to score.

 

Guys receiving intentional walks are also gifted part of the way toward the run they score.

 

These also have about as much overall impact on the game and its stats as this extra inning rule does.
 

Fair enough, after reading that I agree with you.

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