Grief and pain in our community

[AZTwin]

Good advice for you, too.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/twitter-suspends-fake-antifa-account-run-by-white-supremacists/a-53656003?fbclid=IwAR0TH-0mGIXOjXiL2Q2DTg-Mb6hzaAoMgN8vBm8QLHBKJwHtglr1_w9hlcY

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/tech/antifa-fake-twitter-account/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0AYvdyTmfQYKcJg1f5LlvwqU5ZstV5hXuxOKvKnoLxjk61_OHaYIarpGI

Hmm so why are celebraties bailing these “white supremacists” out of jail then? Do they align with them?

[Squirrel]

 

Hmm so why are celebraties bailing these “white supremacists” out of jail then? Do they align with them?

 

What specifically are you referring to in these articles?

[AZTwin]

What specifically are you referring to in these articles?

Not from the articles. They were going around twitter “match me” lol. It was all very public

[Squirrel]

 

Not from the articles. They were going around twitter “match me” lol. It was all very public

okay ... so ... do you have links for that? And what does that have to do with the articles I've posted? Just trying to understand what you are referencing and I can't without seeing it or reading it.

[Vanimal46]

This is a great read. It’s not in their paywall so everyone can read it.

 

[ewen21]

 

What specifically are you referring to in these articles?

https://www.newsweek.com/celebrities-donate-bail-protesters-1507641

Come on.  It took me 10 seconds to find an article.

[ashbury]

Hmm why are celebrities bailing out white supremacists posing as antifa then? Maybe in rare cases this is the case but I really doubt it. Need to look at the actual facts

 

https://www.newsweek.com/celebrities-donate-bail-protesters-1507641

Come on.  It took me 10 seconds to find an article.

A second poster responds on behalf of a first, so I recognize that one doesn't speak for the other. Still:

• The linked article says nothing about Antifa, as requested.
• Posting bail doesn't mean charges are dropped.
• Bail is one of those things in our society that separate the privileged from others.
• Don't buy into what the true Elites in this country are trying to sell you - protesters get equated with rioters, rioters then get equated with Antifa, and by this slippery slope the US military is about to be enlisted into shooting, which will inevitably have what will get explained away as "collateral damage". You're being sold something very dangerous.
• I still think an affordable housing construction project bursting into flames has a lot more in common with the M.O. of black-church-burning groups than of radical leftists.

   

[Squirrel]

https://www.newsweek.com/celebrities-donate-bail-protesters-1507641

Come on.  It took me 10 seconds to find an article.

Okay, I know there are several funds out there bailing out protesters, his inference was that they were bailing out antifa and white supremacists. While I know I posted earlier articles saying most of those arrested were from elsewhere turned out not to be accurate, and I own that, but it is not false that extremist groups are involved and inciting and instigating a lot of the violence.

[nicksaviking]

 

https://www.newsweek.com/celebrities-donate-bail-protesters-1507641

Come on.  It took me 10 seconds to find an article.

 

No one is suggesting all rioters are white supremacists.

 

There does seem to be plenty of people who are suggesting they all are liberals though.

 

Also, there is still a failure to distinguish between protesters and rioters. I'm not saying that's you to be clear.

[stringer bell]

OK, a little scene setting first. I'm an old white guy in southeast Minnesota, the kind that profiles heavily conservative, but I'm not.

 

Some of the discussion in this thread has been about the violence and arson perpetrated by.....? The Trump administration, without evidence, named Antifa, a really small organization which would be classified as anti-government and anti-authoritarian and anarchistic. While this "organization" might be involved in stoking the emotions of protesters., we don't know with any certainty. Again, there is no proof, as far as I know, that one member of Antifa has been involved in any of the looting and rioting. Squirrel has provided links which implicate right wing "bad actors" including the "Bugaloo Bois" who have been known to believe that a race war will be waged. What better time to incite violence? 

 

Reports out of Minneapolis are that a great majority of those arrested thus far are from Minnesota and more specifically from the Twin Cities area. Were there "outside instigators". Initially, Minnesota authorities thought so and the Attorney General continues to state that they have intelligence that suggests this. We don't know how many are left wing, how many are right wing, and how many just want destruction. Frankly, I don't trust this Justice Department to provide a fair accounting of which group is responsible.

 

As Ashbury noted above, protesters jailed are not that same as looters and arsonists. The goal of providing bail to those jailed I'm sure is meant for peaceful protesters. I certainly think that a segment of those arrested and committing the crimes are criminals throughout. We don't know the proportions and percentages and probably never will. I think looting and arson is counterproductive and that those who did those things should spend jail time. 

 

Regarding public servants, I've worked in the public and the private sector and agree that getting rid of the problem employees is well nigh impossible. That said, the quality and competence of the great majority of public employees who I worked with and who worked for me were well intentioned, decent people, often fighting a bureaucracy that is difficult unto impossible. I've never worked with law enforcement, but my few dealings with them have been amiable and professional. I would presume urban police departments to be a totally different situation. 

 

We must look at the problems that people of color have experienced when dealing with law enforcement. Far too many have died in police custody and many have experienced undue arrests and charges. As was also mentioned, the Rodney King situation occurred almost 30 years ago. 

[gunnarthor]

Sacramento Kings suspend their play by play guy after he says ALL LIVES MATTER in response to a former player asking him his take on BLM.  It's good that the Kings recognize ALL LIVES MATTER as divisive and not reflecting the values they want. 

[Squirrel]

Don’t know where this investigation will lead, but interesting developments.

 

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/illinois-man-accused-of-handing-out-explosives-at-minneapolis-protest/2282034/

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Too long to announce, but welcome just the same. 

 

Minneapolis Police Department to undergo civil rights investigation

[ewen21]

 

 

A second poster responds on behalf of a first, so I recognize that one doesn't speak for the other. Still:

• The linked article says nothing about Antifa, as requested.
• Posting bail doesn't mean charges are dropped.
• Bail is one of those things in our society that separate the privileged from others.
• Don't buy into what the true Elites in this country are trying to sell you - protesters get equated with rioters, rioters then get equated with Antifa, and by this slippery slope the US military is about to be enlisted into shooting, which will inevitably have what will get explained away as "collateral damage". You're being sold something very dangerous.
• I still think an affordable housing construction project bursting into flames has a lot more in common with the M.O. of black-church-burning groups than of radical leftists.
   

 

Yes, ok.  That's good.

 

She asked him and I did a search that resulted in a link. It took all of ten seconds to find.  If she was curious she could have fact checked him herself.  We all should be doing that

[ewen21]

 

Sacramento Kings suspend their play by play guy after he says ALL LIVES MATTER in response to a former player asking him his take on BLM.  It's good that the Kings recognize ALL LIVES MATTER as divisive and not reflecting the values they want. 

I will never understand this for as long as I live.  The idea that one can't say "all lives matter" for fear of their job is lunacy to me

[ewen21]

I don't know how certain white people believe they can be the arbiters of what racism is while other whites can't.  Is there no circumstance where a white person can say 'all lives matter"?  What if that is what you believe and that is what you've practiced your whole life?

[howeda7]

 

I will never understand this for as long as I live.  The idea that one can't say "all lives matter" for fear of their job is lunacy to me

By now everyone knows what saying "All live matter" in response to this question represents.

[howeda7]

 

 

I don't know how certain white people believe they can be the arbiters of what racism is while other whites can't.  Is there no circumstance where a white person can say 'all lives matter"?  What if that is what you believe and that is what you've practiced your whole life?

Find a different way to express your intent then. That particular phrase has a specific meaning and it's not the innocent one you're trying to claim.

[ashbury]

she could have fact checked him herself.  We all should be doing that

Disconcur, strongly. If someone makes a claim, they are the one who needs to back it up if asked.

 

We don't need to take this to extremes, litigating every minor point.

 

But if I tell you something new and surprising, such as the sun rose in the West this morning, it's not your responsibility to go find the counter-proof unless you want to, it's on me to provide some kind of corroboration if you or someone else doesn't believe it.

 

I'll go along with you, on the "all should be doing that," in the sense of fact-checking what's checkable, and keeping a healthy skeptical point of view on facts being brought in evidence.

 

[gunnarthor]

 

I don't know how certain white people believe they can be the arbiters of what racism is while other whites can't.  Is there no circumstance where a white person can say 'all lives matter"?  What if that is what you believe and that is what you've practiced your whole life?

Assuming you want a real answer to this question it is because the phrase means something in the public conscience now. It's been co-opted by those who don't want to value black lives. It's also such a singularly strange phrase that is not realistic that someone can say "I've been saying that my whole life."

 

We've had this stupid argument for ages over racist symbols. "All lives matter", confederate flag, confederate statutes, "boy" when referencing a black man, "blue lives matter," fried chicken, blackface, etc. Someone uses or references a charged term or phrase, gets called on it, and then claims ignorance of its social meaning. The Sacramento Kings suspended their play by play man for tweeting "All Lives Matter", recognizing the phrase doesn't reflect the values of their organization. It's a racially charged phrase now. If the speaker doesn't recognize that, it's on the speaker, not the audience.

[ashbury]

I will never understand this for as long as I live.  The idea that one can't say "all lives matter" for fear of their job is lunacy to me

If George Floyd had expressed himself slightly differently, would his crying out "I need to breathe" be helpfully responded to by a passerby saying, "yes, my brother, we ALL need to breathe"? All humans must breathe but Mr Floyd was in need of direct and immediate action. The two turns of phrase are not mirror images of one another.

 

The phrase "black lives matter" came into being because there is a clear pattern, of those engaging in law enforcement, behaving too many times as though the lives of the people in their care, or even while being subdued, do not even matter. To reply that all lives matter, is dismissive, and amounts to twisting their words to imply that they meant black lives matter more than others. Which they manifestly did not mean.*

 

The phrase is intended to focus on a known problem, and to propose a simple remedy. It's at heart a courteous plea to police officers, "remember, a black life is worth something, and right now you may forget that you hold it in your hands".

 

Mocking it with the mimicry of All Lives Matter has been understood to be discourteous for nearly a decade now. If someone with a job in the public eye finds himself looking for work, that's pretty much his problem by now, as being a slow learner.

 

I'll say it a different way - when a benign phrase like BLM receives a deaf ear or (worse) active rebuttal seemingly every time it's uttered outside the comfort of the left's echo chamber, it's unsurprising if ACAB starts to take its place.

 

^{* _{I'm sure you can find someone who ever did say black lives are superior. Because the world is a big place and extremists can always be located.}}

[ewen21]

 

Find a different way to express your intent then. That particular phrase has a specific meaning and it's not the innocent one you're trying to claim.

By your rationale no one can say lives matter unless the word "black" is in front of it.  I don't agree with that kind of manipulation of the language and one should not feel guilty saying that if they believe it.

 

We are not going to agree so I am done talking about this particular issue.  Thanks for listening

[ewen21]

 

If George Floyd had expressed himself slightly differently, would his crying out "I need to breathe" be helpfully responded to by a passerby saying, "yes, my brother, we ALL need to breathe." All humans must breathe but Mr Floyd was in need of direct and immediate action. The two turns of phrase are not mirror images of one another.

 

The phrase "black lives matter" came into being because there is a clear pattern, of those engaging in law enforcement, behaving too many times as though the lives of the people in their care, or even while being subdued, do not even matter. To reply that all lives matter, is dismissive, and amounts to twisting their words to imply that they meant black lives matter more than others. Which they manifestly did not mean.*

 

The phrase is intended to focus on a known problem, and to propose a simple remedy. It's at heart a courteous plea to police officers, "remember, a black life is worth something, and right now you may forget that you hold it in your hand".

 

Mocking it with the mimicry of All Lives Matter has been understood to be discourteous for nearly a decade now. If someone with a job in the public eye finds himself looking for work, that's pretty much his problem by now, as being a slow learner.

 

I'll say it a different way - when a benign phrase like BLM receives a deaf ear or (worse) active rebuttal seemingly every time it's uttered outside the comfort of the left's echo chamber, it's unsurprising if ACAB starts to take its place.
 

^{* _{I'm sure you can find someone who ever did say black lives are superior. Because the world is a big place and extremists can always be located.}}

And if people say "All Cops Are Bad" can I say I don't believe that.  I have seen that everywhere and it hasn't gotten any play.  It really should because that demonstrates the same level of intolerance people are protesting against.  

 

[nicksaviking]

I don't know how certain white people believe they can be the arbiters of what racism is while other whites can't. Is there no circumstance where a white person can say 'all lives matter"? What if that is what you believe and that is what you've practiced your whole life?

Everyone outside of the lunatic fringe already believes white lives and cop lives matter. It’s basically the equivalent of wandering around and telling people indignantly that the Earth is round.

 

Until this very moment in time, half the population supported the cop by default every time he or she killed an unarmed black person.

 

Sure, “All lives matter” may have a place to be used, perhaps when protesting an execution, but it seems to me the same people throwing around that phrase retract the sentiment in that situation.

 

There was really no need to type this, you already know this and I just took your bait.

[Craig Arko]

About the only people I can find who can claim 'all lives matter' and actually practice it are these folks.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml

 

All the rest are frauds.

[ewen21]

 

 

Regarding public servants, I've worked in the public and the private sector and agree that getting rid of the problem employees is well nigh impossible. That said, the quality and competence of the great majority of public employees who I worked with and who worked for me were well intentioned, decent people, often fighting a bureaucracy that is difficult unto impossible. I've never worked with law enforcement, but my few dealings with them have been amiable and professional. I would presume urban police departments to be a totally different situation. 

 

 

One would need to walk in those shoes to understand what law enforcement is up against.  To say you would presume it is a totally different situation says to me perhaps it is necessary to discuss the challenges an officer faces enforcing law in these communities (from the perspective of anyone working there).

 

Does that seem reasonable to you?

 

[ewen21]

 

 

We've had this stupid argument for ages over racist symbols. "All lives matter", confederate flag, confederate statutes, "boy" when referencing a black man, "blue lives matter," fried chicken, blackface, etc. Someone uses or references a charged term or phrase, gets called on it, and then claims ignorance of its social meaning. The Sacramento Kings suspended their play by play man for tweeting "All Lives Matter", recognizing the phrase doesn't reflect the values of their organization. It's a racially charged phrase now. If the speaker doesn't recognize that, it's on the speaker, not the audience.

Did you just designate the same meaning to "all lives matter" as we do calling a black man "boy"?

 

A completely innocuous term such as "all lives matter" is now tantamount to hate speech.  A guy named Killer Mike can go on TV wearing a "KILL YOUR MASTER" shirt and this is OK.  Does he think as a white men we represent that?  Should he clarify this statement or is that's just how it is now?  People are holding up signs "defund the police".  Is that what you want?

 

Just sayin

 

 

[Squirrel]

 

Yes, ok.  That's good.

 

She asked him and I did a search that resulted in a link. It took all of ten seconds to find.  If she was curious she could have fact checked him herself.  We all should be doing that

Again .. no .. that wasn't what was being asked ... I was asking him where celebrities were paying bail for white supremacists and anarchists, because that was his inference. I knew there were plenty of funds supporting protesters ... but that's not what his implication was, and that was something I couldn't find a link to. And your article didn't provide what AZTwin was implying, either.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Did you just designate the same meaning to "all lives matter" as we do calling a black man "boy"?

 

A completely innocuous term such as "all lives matter" is now tantamount to hate speech. A guy named Killer Mike can go on TV wearing a "KILL YOUR MASTER" shirt and this is OK. Does he think as a white men we represent that? Should he clarify this statement or is that's just how it is now? People are holding up signs "defund the police". Is that what you want?

 

Just sayin

That’s a song referenced on the T-Shirt.

 

 

Agreed on poor judgement.

 

A guy wearing a t-shirt that many people won’t get the reference is a far cry from a phrase used to support institutional racism.

[ewen21]

 

That’s a song referenced on the T-Shirt.

Agreed on poor judgement.

A guy wearing a t-shirt that many people won’t get the reference is a far cry from a phrase used to support institutional racism.

I will end this discussion by saying I agree with literally nothing you and several others have said on the issue of "all lives matter"

 

I won't say it if it will cause me to lose my job, ruin my life and make me bankrupt.  I just think it is completely absurd.