Graterol Trade On Hold? Valuing Starters and Relievers

[NY Twins Fan]

You are right, they can't finalize Betts/Price being dealt without the related pieces because Boston doesn't want Maeda and needs more back than just Alex Verdugo.

 

I think Dodgers/Boston agreed they want to make the trade but they still haven't agreed to what Boston gets in return.

[mnfireman]

The Red Sox true colors showed through. They are feeeling the fan base pressure and want more from the Twins. I say NO. The Twins deal was with the Dodgers, not the Red Sox. No new prospects, players or money from the Twins. The Sox fleeced the Twins by signing Ortiz and think they can do it again.

[Squirrel]

 

The Red Sox apparently want ANOTHER top 10 prospect to accommodate for Graterol. Maeda isn’t worth that. Not even close. I would toss in Nick Gordon, but that’s about it

 

If Boston wants that, then they need to get it from the Dodgers, and not us. I hope we don't do anything truly ugh worthy here.

[Mike Sixel]

I really don't think the new FO, run by an ex-Ray, is making baseball decisions based on fan reactions. Seriously.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I really don't think the new FO, run by an ex-Ray, is making baseball decisions based on fan reactions. Seriously.

As an ex-Ray, he may not be aware that fans exist at all.

[twinstalker]

Sorry if this has been said already. I'd be thrilled if the Twins threw them Duran and kept Graterol.

[bunsen82]

 

Sorry if this has been said already. I'd be thrilled if the Twins threw them Duran and kept Graterol

 

My guess is Duran is rated higher than Graterol in the Twins organization.  If we are sending someone else it would be Thorpe if they want a starter now, with another prospect like Nick Gordon or another pitcher like Blake Enlow is my opinion. 

[Mike Sixel]

Sorry if this has been said already. I'd be thrilled if the Twins threw them Duran and kept Graterol.

Opposite. Duran is a starter.

[TFRazor]

As an ex-Ray, he may not be aware that fans exist at all.

You owe me for the beer that just shot out my nose.

 

Also if you weren’t aware, that actually kinda hurts

[DocBauer]

I'd really like to post this in about 3 different threads, but will probably just stick with this one.

 

What really irks me is the way this is playing out not just for the organizations,and fans, but for the players themselves.

 

I love baseball! I enjoy the NFL, but not as much as I used to, for various reasons, but that is a different discussion. In MLB, I do not take sides in regard to players vs owners. In the universe that is professional baseball, I side with minor league players, and changes I see as an absolute MUST. We're I an owner, I'd be looking at better treatment, conditions and salary for the lifeblood of my franchise. I would be mkre than willing to thumb my nose at other owners for how I did things because it's not only my franchise, but it's the minors, not MLB.

 

But when it is the BIG STAGE, I don't take sides. I find it oddly curious when others do. We argue about billionaires vs millionaires. We argue about MLB players earning well over 500K per season, with additional perks, and arbitration numbers that go in to the millions. And then we harumph when owners when owners when "only" spend X number of millions. It's really kind of crazy when you step back and look at it all. FWIW, never thought an owner should be an owner if his ego and sense of fun didn't allow him to push the envelope. Otherwise, why own a team in the first place?

 

Ken Rosenthal on MLNetwork commented, as others have, that thjs deal probably still goes through. So my rant may prove worthless. We all know enough to realize there are sometimes questions and delays. But this feels abnormal to me. Maybe it was early reporting? But I'm kind of siding on the retorts from the union on this one. Players are caught in the ceasefire. What if the Twins are dumped out of this? What do they do next? Does Graterol feel welcome comimg back? Is he offered up again in a different deal?

 

The more I look at this, the more frustrated I get at how it has been handled, especially on the Boston end. I feel like some amateurs have been brought in to muck things up.

[Sam Morley]

How do you estimate how many times a healthy person can throw a baseball before they get injured?

 

How can a person's physical condition be such that it is unsafe for them to throw 100 pitches in a game once a week but safe for them to throw 20 pitches in a game every other night? If there is something wrong with their body that prevents them from doing the former, wouldn't the same thing prevent them also from doing the latter? 

 

Starting pitchers turn into relief pitchers for one reason: they aren't good enough at pitching to be starters.

 

They are saying Graterol can only handle a work load of 150-170 innings in a season. What does that mean? Does he get too tired to be effective after that? Is he getting too tired at that point in the season because of how hard he throws? That would make sense. That would jive with starters who convert to relievers and add 3-4 mph to their fastball. Presumably, most starting pitchers are not working near the top of their max range. They give up some heat in favor of stamina, and they have to become better at pitching to make up for the lost mph. 

 

My interpretation of Graterol being forecast as a reliever is that they don't think he's good enough at pitching to lose the mph. But I don't see what is stopping him from becoming better. 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

How do you estimate how many times a healthy person can throw a baseball before they get injured?

 

How can a person's physical condition be such that it is unsafe for them to throw 100 pitches in a game once a week but safe for them to throw 20 pitches in a game every other night? If there is something wrong with their body that prevents them from doing the former, wouldn't the same thing prevent them also from doing the latter?

 

Starting pitchers turn into relief pitchers for one reason: they aren't good enough at pitching to be starters.

 

They are saying Graterol can only handle a work load of 150-170 innings in a season. What does that mean? Does he get too tired to be effective after that? Is he getting too tired at that point in the season because of how hard he throws? That would make sense. That would jive with starters who convert to relievers and add 3-4 mph to their fastball. Presumably, most starting pitchers are not working near the top of their max range. They give up some heat in favor of stamina, and they have to become better at pitching to make up for the lost mph.

 

My interpretation of Graterol being forecast as a reliever is that they don't think he's good enough at pitching to lose the mph. But I don't see what is stopping him from becoming better.

I would guess Graterol’s shoulder was responding differently to short stints vs longer outings. Every sport has sprint vs endurance type concerns.

[Sam Morley]

 

I would guess Graterol’s shoulder was responding differently to short stints vs longer outings. Every sport has sprint vs endurance type concerns.

 

That isn't something that would be included in a medical report, is it? I don't understand the conflation of his medical history with his projection as a starter vs reliever. Is Boston saying that there is something in his medical history that predicts he will be a reliever? If so, what is it? Lots of starters have had TJ. Lots of starters have had shoulder impingement. Is Graterol himself saying he doesn't want to start anymore?

 

This whole starter/reliever projection bit is nonsense. Boston could whine about him not projecting as a starter to devalue him/get another piece in the trade and then use him as a starter anyway.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That isn't something that would be included in a medical report, is it?

A player's medical report would include that, and more. Basically every interaction he's had with the training staff. The results of every medical exam. Every treatment that staff recommended and tried, and the follow-up analysis of those treatments.

 

I've recommended this article a few times already, it's a very good read on the subject:

 

“How baseball teams exchange medical information, and what it means for the Mookie Betts trade”

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2020/02/06/how-baseball-teams-exchange-medical-information-after-agreeing-trade/Nu56T96T3GENiqQQs0amZN/story.html?outputType=amp