Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs

[twinsnorth49]

I am going to try to explain it to you, but this will be my only attempt so please read this

 

The difference between using technology and pitch framing is that one is an art that comes from a player's ability to make pitches better. The other teams and the umpires have knowledge of what pitch framing is and how it happens. Umpires can become aware of who is a great "pitch framer" and adjust accordingly. Stats are used to show who the best and worst pitch framers are. It is out there for public consumption. The key here is there very up front knowledge of this practice and the other team and umpires are aware of it. It happens on the field and players doing the framing are getting no help from anyone.

 

With this scam the Astros ran the entire team was complicit in this by keeping it a secret. This was a system that employed cameras which relayed real time video to someone who then relayed messages to a player via a wired a device taped inside his uniform. The player was given real time information (something that could never be accomplished through hand signals) about what pitch was coming. As Curt Schilling explained the other day, this system would have killed him because if everyone knew his two seamer was coming they wouldn't have swung. Now they are geared up for tow pitches. To get this in place there were layers of duplicity to this and the other team's pitcher had no way of defending himself against it because they did this without the other team's knowledge. Had the Astros informed the other teams of this there isn't an organization that wouldn't have blown the whistle on them. This was a highly elaborate scam which operated on many levels and if it were ever discovered during a game players would have been ejected, probably the game protested, and lord knows what else.

 

The fact that you wonder why it's viewed so differently from pitch framing only illustrates the lack of depth and understanding this argument you presented has. It assumes ignorance. It attempts to use generalizations to equate two different things. It shows the details I and others have presented go over your head for some strange reason. Either you understand it or you don't. That is on you, my friend. I cannot break it down in more elementary terms for you.

The fact that this needs to be explained to anybody is ....well.....mind boggling.

[ewen21]

 

The fact that this needs to be explained to anybody is ....well.....mind boggling.

 

 

 

Well I just tried to break it down, but rest assured these folks will keep up the analogies and generalizations all the while ignoring the pertinent facts.  The most disheartening thing to me are that people are going with the notion that this is baseball being baseball.  The attitude dictates, "there's cheating in baseball and that is just the way it is.  How is this any different?  Why are you making a big deal?"

 

As if you are a dork for questioning integrity anymore.  I don't get it.  Somehow, to some, I am getting on my high horse with this.  I would like to know you, I or anyone is being overly judgmental about this?

I get there are different levels of dishonesty, and in my almost 50 years of watching baseball and attending games, nothing comes close to this with regard to dishonesty.  Not even steroids.

 

And to make a comparison to pitch framing?   Wow

[Monkeypaws]

Just strip them of the damn title. That is the best way to get closure here.

[AceWrigley]

In an earlier thread after I thought a few comments were getting a little over zealous I wrote, "I think all the fans that attended Astros home games are also complicit and they should ban all attendance for one year. C'mon, it's a game. Getting away with bending/breaking the rules goes as far back as competition was invented." I was joking about the first part. Bending and breaking the rules comes with competition. I like in the NHL, if you have a beef you have to bring it to the Ref's attention during the game, not after. I think some of this applies here. Why didn't a catcher or pitcher stop the game, talk with the umpire and try to stop it WHILE it was occurring?

 

If I'm on the mound and hear that banging and figure out it's the other team possibly illegally stealing signs? I'm telling them to knock it off and if I hear any more banging while I'm pitching, I don't care who it is at the plate, I'm planting a fastball in his ribcage.

[AceWrigley]

Nascar uses secure tech for team communication during races, why can't Baseball for in-game communication like signs and defensive placement? This would also work for babe watching.

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Just strip them of the damn title. That is the best way to get closure here.

This. Strip them of the title. Take away their WS rings. Fine each player a set % of each cheating seasons salary. Suspend every active member of the cheating players, imo somewhere between 20 and 40 games. Including players who are now on other teams. The Astro org has been fined 5mil, make that 50mil. I have zero sympathy for Jim Crane. This isn't too harsh.

 

I've heard people also say we need to forgive and move on because we've all done something wrong in our own lives. I'm all for forgiving. I hold no personal grudge against any of the cheaters. But the integrity of the game is at stake. I want to support ML baseball. ie attend a game or two this season. But I'm not so sure I will based on how Manfred has handled this scandal.

[Vanimal46]

 

I thought the Astros liked knowing which pitch was coming? I don’t see the problem here if we bang on a trash can before the bean ball.

[ewen21]

 

In an earlier thread after I thought a few comments were getting a little over zealous I wrote, "I think all the fans that attended Astros home games are also complicit and they should ban all attendance for one year. C'mon, it's a game. Getting away with bending/breaking the rules goes as far back as competition was invented." I was joking about the first part. Bending and breaking the rules comes with competition. I like in the NHL, if you have a beef you have to bring it to the Ref's attention during the game, not after. I think some of this applies here. Why didn't a catcher or pitcher stop the game, talk with the umpire and try to stop it WHILE it was occurring?

 

If I'm on the mound and hear that banging and figure out it's the other team possibly illegally stealing signs? I'm telling them to knock it off and if I hear any more banging while I'm pitching, I don't care who it is at the plate, I'm planting a fastball in his ribcage.

This goes far beyond your typical rule bending/breaking.  These players have received zero consequences from the league.  I would like to know why you are against people laying into these players.

[AceWrigley]

 

This goes far beyond your typical rule bending/breaking.  These players have received zero consequences from the league.  I would like to know why you are against people laying into these players.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I believe in penalties being in place for wrong doing and the enforcement of them. It's pretty hard to levy punishment on players 3 years later if they play for other teams as this would unfairly harm organizations who weren't involved in wrong doing. Players/Managers/GM's should have raised their concerns while the cheating was occurring so the league could have dealt with it forth right. Beyond that, if I'm a player and the other team is cheating against me, I'm taking steps to stop it.

[gunnarthor]

 

It wasn't a great pitch, location-wise at least.  Was it a change up?

Here's the pitch

 

 

Change-up from Chapman on a 2-1 pitch. I'm honestly not sure but it looks like Altuve isn't surprised by a change up there. We don't see him with a slight hitch in his swing. I don't know Chapman's tendencies but I would have guessed in a 2-1 count he'd try to throw something 100mph by the batter. I'm honestly surprised that Altuve waited so well on that pitch. But I don't know if he had a buzzer. But the excuse that he didn't want to tear his shirt makes it look really fishy.

[Vanimal46]

More and more star baseball players coming out on record saying they’re disappointed with the lack of punishment on former Astros players. This is going to be ugly.

 

Makes me wonder if the MLBPA will consider a work stoppage until further punishments are announced? This is a unique case. Typically players tow the company line and defend their own. Not this time...

[Nine of twelve]

 

Here's the pitch

 

 

Change-up from Chapman on a 2-1 pitch. I'm honestly not sure but it looks like Altuve isn't surprised by a change up there. We don't see him with a slight hitch in his swing. I don't know Chapman's tendencies but I would have guessed in a 2-1 count he'd try to throw something 100mph by the batter. I'm honestly surprised that Altuve waited so well on that pitch. But I don't know if he had a buzzer. But the excuse that he didn't want to tear his shirt makes it look really fishy.

I remember watching this last fall and thinking that Chapman's reaction was not what I would have expected. Instead of appearing angry or stone-faced it was almost like he was in disbelief, like he was wondering how Altuve could have been so ready for that pitch in that situation.

[Riverbrian]

I dont know the details obviously and I dont want to make assumptions but I have a nagging question that I can't shake.

 

If the Astros admit to 2017 and are not caught until after the 2019 season concluded.

 

Why would they stop in 2018 or 2019?

 

I dont know the answer to that the nagging question.

[Squirrel]

I dont know the details obviously and I dont want to make assumptions but I have a nagging question that I can't shake.

If the Astros admit to 2017 and are not caught until after the 2019 season concluded.

Why would they stop in 2018 or 2019?

I dont know the answer to that the nagging question.

You aren’t alone in that. More and more players are asking the same questions. This issue is not going to go away unless and until MLB levies some kind of ‘punishment’ for the players involved and/or takes away their WS title.

[Riverbrian]

You aren’t alone in that. More and more players are asking the same questions. This issue is not going to go away unless and until MLB levies some kind of ‘punishment’ for the players involved and/or takes away their WS title.

To me the players coming out publicly and harshly illustrates just how out of bounds the Astros were here. If other teams are doing similar things, they would stay silent. They are not... they are pissed.

 

I'm beginning to believe that Manfred has no choice but to strike the 2017 WS title from the record books.

 

I'm not sure that he can punish the players due to the immunity, MLBPA and players that are now on other rosters though.

 

What a flipping mess. Boston yet to come. I want my game back to normal.

[sweetmusicviola16]

Frances Martes of Astros recently suspended for 162 games for PED's also. 

[AlwaysinModeration]

I dont know the details obviously and I dont want to make assumptions but I have a nagging question that I can't shake.

 

If the Astros admit to 2017 and are not caught until after the 2019 season concluded.

 

Why would they stop in 2018 or 2019?

 

I dont know the answer to that the nagging question.

I was wondering the exact same thing. Same question for the Red Sox. They cheated and won in 2018, but then just stopped last year?

[Riverbrian]

O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!

 

-Walter Scott

[Mr. Brooks]

O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!

 

-Walter Scott

You cheated on me?

When I specifically asked you not to?

 

-Michael Scott

[Rigby]

 

You cheated on me?
When I specifically asked you not to?

-Michael Scott

 

They'll never learn...

 

 

- Scotty Beckett

[bird]

Put The Law On You---Natalie Merchant, and not Rob Manfred

[ewen21]

Put The Law On You---Natalie Merchant, and not Rob Manfred

Do Wah Diddy

—Manfred Mann

 

(What are we doing?)

[Vanimal46]

[ewen21]

How about David Ortiz turning the tables and ripping Fiers for being a "snitch"

 

Nice.  It was "snitches" who gave up the guy who shot him.

I am so sick and tired of this mafioso/ghetto mentality of "snitching" being the worst thing in the world.  What the heck.  We are just supposed to sweep lies under the rug?  For Ortiz (a guy who is someone I have liked and respected for years) to come out with this malarkey is quite disheartening.  He is making a bigger deal about Fiers he is what the Astros did.  That is straight up dumb and you wonder what motivated him to say what he said.

[Mr. Brooks]

How about David Ortiz turning the tables and ripping Fiers for being a "snitch"

 

Nice. It was "snitches" who gave up the guy who shot him.

I am so sick and tired of this mafioso/ghetto mentality of "snitching" being the worst thing in the world. What the heck. We are just supposed to sweep lies under the rug? For Ortiz (a guy who is someone I have liked and respected for years) to come out with this malarkey is quite disheartening. He is making a bigger deal about Fiers he is what the Astros did. That is straight up dumb and you wonder what motivated him to say what he said.

While I agree with you that the anti snitching culture goes overboard in many parts of society, I agree 100% with part of what Ortiz is saying.

 

“After you make your money, after you get your ring, you decided to talk about it?” he asked. “Why you gotta talk about it after, that’s my problem. Why nobody say anything while it was going on?”

 

I agree with Ortiz there. Where was Fiers integrity while this was happening?

It's a lot easier to find integrity after you've made your guaranteed money, and gotten a ring, and moved on to another team.

[Vanimal46]

How about David Ortiz turning the tables and ripping Fiers for being a "snitch"

 

Nice. It was "snitches" who gave up the guy who shot him.

I am so sick and tired of this mafioso/ghetto mentality of "snitching" being the worst thing in the world. What the heck. We are just supposed to sweep lies under the rug? For Ortiz (a guy who is someone I have liked and respected for years) to come out with this malarkey is quite disheartening. He is making a bigger deal about Fiers he is what the Astros did. That is straight up dumb and you wonder what motivated him to say what he said.

This is the response to David Ortiz calling out Fiers for not saying anything while it was going on.

 

https://twitter.com/chriscotillo/status/1230539616777838593?s=21

 

Manfred is looking worse by the day...

[Mr. Brooks]

This is the response to David Ortiz calling out Fiers for not saying anything while it was going on.

 

https://twitter.com/chriscotillo/status/1230539616777838593?s=21

 

Manfred is looking worse by the day...

Who did he tell in 2017, while he was part of the team doing the cheating?

2018 was after Fiers left the Astros, so that doesn't change Ortiz' point.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who did he tell in 2017, while he was part of the team doing the cheating?
2018 was after Fiers left the Astros, so that doesn't change Ortiz' point.

 

Ortiz's point is don't admit anything, ever. Cheat, and get away with it. Be bad, at all costs, to win. That's his point. He's not interested in doing things by the rules at all, everyone knows this.

[Mr. Brooks]

Ortiz's point is don't admit anything, ever. Cheat, and get away with it. Be bad, at all costs, to win. That's his point. He's not interested in doing things by the rules at all, everyone knows this.

Maybe that's true, I won't try to mind read. That's not what he said in this case though.

[ewen21]

 

While I agree with you that the anti snitching culture goes overboard in many parts of society, I agree 100% with part of what Ortiz is saying.

“After you make your money, after you get your ring, you decided to talk about it?” he asked. “Why you gotta talk about it after, that’s my problem. Why nobody say anything while it was going on?”

I agree with Ortiz there. Where was Fiers integrity while this was happening?
It's a lot easier to find integrity after you've made your guaranteed money, and gotten a ring, and moved on to another team.

The part of what Ortiz is saying shouldn't be something that overshadows the real issue.  That is the problem I have with him.  He is angrier about that than he is about what the Astros did.  While he might be right questioning the timing of Fiers breaking this, how in the heck is that more important to him than what Houston did to the league?  How in the hell is the truth wrong?

 

What's the alternative?  Don't "snitch" and just allow it to continue?  That is a load of garbage and you don't believe it for a second.   I don't give a damn about Mike Fiers.  You can question Fiers' integrity all day and long but it doesn't alter the state of evidence here and it really isn't anything significant.  What is more bothersome is this "cone of silence" some players want maintain on such matters.  Ortiz leads the charge and that is very very disappointing to me because he was one of my favorite people in baseball for many years.

 

Screw him