Twins should fire Molitor

[gunnarthor]

I understand that they probably won't but going on the premise that it's hard to fire the players and this is the second year in three years that the Twins have looked bad early it seems like some of this has to be on the manager. Either he's not getting through to his players or isn't able to solve the problem. If it's the second, it doesn't matter who the manager is, if it's the first, then a change could help.

 

Joe Girardi and John Ferrell are both available. Neither is the next Joe Maddon but both have had success and are probably better at this managing thing than Molitor. 

[HitInAPinch]

I haven't seen any games so far this year.  But at a whole 23 games into the season and only 3 1/2 games out?  And with last season with a +.500 record since Methuselah was a pup?

 

 

OK, it only seems like that long.   

 

I've always been on the side that says "Wait until the temps start getting warmer before making a decision. "

 

Santana is coming back and Morrison and Sano should be ready to blast away.

[Major League Ready]

 

I understand that they probably won't but going on the premise that it's hard to fire the players and this is the second year in three years that the Twins have looked bad early it seems like some of this has to be on the manager. Either he's not getting through to his players or isn't able to solve the problem. If it's the second, it doesn't matter who the manager is, if it's the first, then a change could help.

 

Joe Girardi and John Ferrell are both available. Neither is the next Joe Maddon but both have had success and are probably better at this managing thing than Molitor. 

 

How would you feel if you were voted the best at your job in your entire industry the previous year and then were fired for a rough month.  This type of stuff is just maneuvering to appease fans and I hope this FO has more integrity than this type of circus management tactics.

[Mike Sixel]

How would you feel if you were voted the best at your job in your entire industry the previous year and then were fired for a rough month. This type of stuff is just maneuvering to appease fans and I hope this FO has more integrity than this type of circus management tactics.

That vote is pretty much given to the manager of the team that did best compared to before season projections. It means about as much as the gold gloves do.

 

I'm no molitor fan... as a manager. I would not have extended him. But now that they have, he should get this year. Then decide again, one way or the other.

[yarnivek1972]

How would you feel if you were voted the best at your job in your entire industry the previous year and then were fired for a rough month. This type of stuff is just maneuvering to appease fans and I hope this FO has more integrity than this type of circus management tactics.

Wasn’t Redmond fired the same offseason as being named MOY?

 

Edit: I guess it was Girardi.

[Blake]

 

That vote is pretty much given to the manager of the team that did best compared to before season projections. It means about as much as the gold gloves do.

I'm no molitor fan... as a manager. I would not have extended him. But now that they have, he should get this year. Then decide again, one way or the other.

Voice of Reason and Mike Sixel? Something seems wrong here....

[Brock Beauchamp]

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

[3balls2strikes]

 

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

 

There's the modern millennial mindset in action. If you have a good year, you were just over-performing. If you have a bad year, it's because you just aren't very good. There is never any accountability nor repercussions for poor performance. Everyone gets a participation trophy and a big fat paycheck no matter what! 

 

The current performance of this Minnesota Twins team is atrocious. Some arses need kicking and some attitudes need adjusting upside the head, pronto! 

[Mike Sixel]

 

There's the modern millennial mindset in action. If you have a good year, you were just over-performing. If you have a bad year, it's because you just aren't very good. There is never any accountability nor repercussions for poor performance. Everyone gets a participation trophy and a big fat paycheck no matter what! 

 

The current performance of this Minnesota Twins team is atrocious. Some arses need kicking and some attitudes need adjusting upside the head, pronto! 

 

We clearly know very different millenials......and we are talking about 20 some games here.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

There's the modern millennial mindset in action. If you have a good year, you were just over-performing. If you have a bad year, it's because you just aren't very good. There is never any accountability nor repercussions for poor performance. Everyone gets a participation trophy and a big fat paycheck no matter what!

 

The current performance of this Minnesota Twins team is atrocious. Some arses need kicking and some attitudes need adjusting upside the head, pronto!

Cool story. I’m not a Millennial and you completely misunderstood my post.

[Mr. Brooks]

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

If they overperformed last year, then why were there such high aspirations for success this season? I don't see any significant difference makers added over the offseason. A few guys that might add a win here, or there, sure.

If they overperformed last year, then the expectations should have been that they'd take a small step back this year (due to performing to their talent, rather than overperforming again) or perhaps a similar record, with the few modest additions making up the difference.

 

IMO, only one of the following can be correct:

They overperformed last year.

Or, they performed as their talent level would suggest, and therefore should continue to improve upon that performance.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If they overperformed last year, then why were there such high aspirations for success this season? I don't see any significant difference makers added over the offseason. A few guys that might add a win here, or there, sure.

If they overperformed last year, then the expectations should have been that they'd take a small step back this year (due to performing to their talent, rather than overperforming again) or perhaps a similar record, with the few modest additions making up the difference.

 

IMO, only one of the following can be correct:

They overperformed last year.

Or, they performed as their talent level would suggest, and therefore should continue to improve upon that performance.

Why is everyone assuming that “overperformed” means “overperformed their talent level” and not “overperformed expectations”?

 

The word on its own does not imply luck unless you infer it. There are ways to overperform that don’t involve the negative.

[yarnivek1972]

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

An argument could be made that they didn’t over perform all of 2017.

 

They simply were out of their minds good in August in a league where there was a clear line between good teams and bad teams.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

 

This is a terrible post.  I don't care how valuable you've been to this board, I'm ignoring all context and focusing on just this small sample size.  It gives me no choice but to recommend you be banned.  Forever.  Possibly with Chief ringing a "shame" bell as you exit.

 

And with that I'm still well out of reach for being the most ridiculous post in this thread.

[Mr. Brooks]

Why is everyone assuming that “overperformed” means “overperformed their talent level” and not “overperformed expectations”?

 

The word on its own does not imply luck unless you infer it. There are ways to overperform that don’t involve the negative.

First, I never suggested anything having to do with luck, not sure what that is in response to.

 

I think a manager should be judged on his results compared to the talent he's given. That is my standard for attempting to judge a manager or coach. Talent is at least something tangible that we can try to measure against. I'd have no idea how to measure against expectations. Whose expectations are we to judge against? You might find a thousand different expectations for the same team, and many might not be based on anything rooted in reality.

I genuinely thought you were basing your overperformed comment on a talent scale, simply because that is the scale I use.

I apologize for making that assumption.

[Mr. Brooks]

This is a terrible post. I don't care how valuable you've been to this board, I'm ignoring all context and focusing on just this small sample size. It gives me no choice but to recommend you be banned. Forever. Possibly with Chief ringing a "shame" bell as you exit.

 

And with that I'm still well out of reach for being the most ridiculous post in this thread.

Okay, I'm not advocating for Molitor's firing. Not here or anywhere.

But I think this post is completely unfair. And frankly, a bit patronizing and condescending.

If we want to ensure the largest sample size possible, what is Molitor's overall record as manager of the Twins?

[Brock Beauchamp]

First, I never suggested anything having to do with luck, not sure what that is in response to.

 

I think a manager should be judged on his results compared to the talent he's given. That is my standard for attempting to judge a manager or coach. Talent is at least something tangible that we can try to measure against. I'd have no idea how to measure against expectations. Whose expectations are we to judge against? You might find a thousand different expectations for the same team, and many might not be based on anything rooted in reality.

I genuinely thought you were basing your overperformed comment on a talent scale, simply because that is the scale I use.

I apologize for making that assumption.

When pretty much everyone predicts your team to have a win total in the 70s and you end the season in the mid 80s with a postseason berth, one can comfortably say they exceeded expectations.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't see how measuring "expectations" is any different than conversations about "real talent".  All of these are an amalgamation of opinions used to set a benchmark.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't see how measuring "expectations" is any different than conversations about "real talent". All of these are an amalgamation of opinions used to set a benchmark.

Yeah, it’s all nebulous and intertwined.

 

My greater point is that you don’t fire a manager who had a good season after one bad month. If you had no confidence in Molitor, you don’t re-up him last offseason.*

 

*and I would have been totally fine with that

[gunnarthor]

 

You don’t fire a guy for having one bad month after his team overperformed for an entire season.

It's not just one month. The team was a dumpster fire in 2016 and I thought they made the playoffs last despite the manager, not because of him. We have enough of a track record - in my opinion - that Molitor isn't a good manager. There are better managers currently unemployed.

 

Heck, all the narratives about Gardy are actually true about Molly - he does throw players under the bus and he didn't play the rookies. It's hard to grade managers but I do think that it's fair to say that the talent level he has been given has not performed consistently during his run. Hire someone better.

[DrNeau]

 

There's the modern millennial mindset in action. If you have a good year, you were just over-performing. If you have a bad year, it's because you just aren't very good. There is never any accountability nor repercussions for poor performance. Everyone gets a participation trophy and a big fat paycheck no matter what! 

 

The current performance of this Minnesota Twins team is atrocious. Some arses need kicking and some attitudes need adjusting upside the head, pronto! 

 

Molitor could've crawled under the bat rack during that NYY series and went to sleep, and no one would've even noticed. Lots of our pitchers' strikes were called balls, and lots of pitches to out of the zone were called strikes against our hitters. It was horrible. He didn't stick up for his squad one bit. At least Gardy - with all of his mismanagement issues - would not have let that stand. That was bogus. 

[Mike Sixel]

Molitor could've crawled under the bat rack during that NYY series and went to sleep, and no one would've even noticed. Lots of our pitchers' strikes were called balls, and lots of pitches to out of the zone were called strikes against our hitters. It was horrible. He didn't stick up for his squad one bit. At least Gardy - with all of his mismanagement issues - would not have let that stand. That was bogus.

Very true.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's not just one month. The team was a dumpster fire in 2016 and I thought they made the playoffs last despite the manager, not because of him. We have enough of a track record - in my opinion - that Molitor isn't a good manager. There are better managers currently unemployed.

 

Heck, all the narratives about Gardy are actually true about Molly - he does throw players under the bus and he didn't play the rookies. It's hard to grade managers but I do think that it's fair to say that the talent level he has been given has not performed consistently during his run. Hire someone better.

They also had a very good run in 2015. I don’t particularly care for Molitor but I have no idea if he’s a good manager. His numbers have been equally over- and under-whelming. It’s not fair to point out the bad as his fault and say he isn’t responsible for the good.

 

Personally, I wouldn’t have resigned him.

[Mr. Brooks]

When pretty much everyone predicts your team to have a win total in the 70s and you end the season in the mid 80s with a postseason berth, one can comfortably say they exceeded expectations.

Correct. He absolutely exceeded expectations last year. That isn't disputable. I just don't find it relevant, at least not to how I judge a manager or coach.

 

I misunderstood your post. Again, I'm sorry.

 

For the record, I actually agree that they outperformed their talent level last year. My problem was with the expectations side of my misaligned response to your post, not that they overperformed. I was kind of blown away at some of the expectations people had for this team.

That's because I don't believe a manager can consistently outperform their talent level.

I think a bad manager can underperform their talent level, but a good manager, IMO, can simply do a good job of getting the talent to perform to their ceiling, and not get in the way, or screw it up.

[Riverbrian]

There are times when I disagree with Molitor but I absolutely defend his right to not think like I do. 

 

Right Now... I'm not sure what I would do if I was the manager. 

 

There were way too many fundamental mistakes made from a team that is trying to get themselves out of a 1-9 skid.

 

Walks from the starting pitcher... Rosario laying up on a catch-able ball was inexcusable, Totally blowing a fly ball in the 9th to boot. Garver passed ball, Mauer chasing a ground ball all the way to where Dozier was standing.  

 

He has too many players that are in need of a message. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

They were an 85 team win last year. The rest is just opinion.

 

My opinion is they should have battled for the AL Central this season, for about 90 wins. But the free agent pickups this year have lost us ballgames in tangible ways. Duke can't touch first base. Rodney can't close games. Hits Gomez with a pitch with 2 outs in the ninth. Morrison hasn't hit or fielded in key moments. Not sure how those are on Molitor.

[Pius Jefferson]

i know a couple of Sox fans who were not fans of Ferrell. 

 

The free agent manager coming in during the season doesn't happen very often. So any managerial change would likely be someone with the organization.

[howeda7]

Firing Molitor won't solve anything. They need to get Buxton back. Grossman is killing them on D. They need Dozier/Rosario/LoMo to start hitting. They need to get Sano back. They need to start playing Garver ahead of Castro more. They need to re-organize the bullpen. Etc. Getting Buxton/Sano/Santana back will help. Until then, the pitching needs to stop sucking. 

[Borealis]

Can anyone envision a scenario where Molitor gets replaced now and the team then goes on to have a successful season, making the playoffs at least as a wildcard?

 

To me it seems like the Twins would be raising the white flag if Molitor is canned at this early stage. I myself am not ready to throw in the towel! Call me a homer lol

[notoriousgod71]

 

Can anyone envision a scenario where Molitor gets replaced now and the team then goes on to have a successful season, making the playoffs at least as a wildcard?

To me it seems like the Twins would be raising the white flag if Molitor is canned at this early stage. I myself am not ready to throw in the towel! Call me a homer lol

 

It's happened more often than you think, sometimes even later in the season.

 

The most obvious is Trader Jack replacing Torborg and leading the Marlins to a championship.