Molitor and the Bullpen

[TKGuy]

Frustrated, but laughing all at the same time, about another Yankee Stadium debacle.  However, this topic has been gnawing at me since last year, and that is, Molitor's handling of the bullpen.  This did not cost us the game today, but it still is a prime example.  Our bullpen has been taxed by short starts recently and finally, Kyle Gibson gives the Twins exactly what they needed, a fabulous outing.  After six innings, Gibson has struck out ten Yankee batters and given up one hit and sits at 95 pitches.  Knowing the dire situation of the taxed bullpen, Molitor summons Addison Reed to start the 7th inning, already his 10th appearance in 20 games and then Zach Duke for his 9th appearance in 20 games. Gibson threw 102 pitches in his opening outing of the year against Baltimore, but Molitor pulls him after 95 pitches?  Reminiscent of Molitor pulling Berrios earlier this year after 84 pitches.  It's like something in his mind says, no way my starter can keep this up after 6 innings, so the bullpen must be summoned.  Which brings me back to last year and Taylor Rogers.  In my opinion, Molitor absolutely abused him and Rogers didn't hold up until the end of the year.  Hildy is warming up in the 1st inning, the 5th inning, the 7th inning in games.  Pressly being summoned in the 4th inning.  Pressly has worked in 11 games, Rogers and Hildy in 10.  It's probably not fair to Molitor, but you cannot only keep Moya and Kinley out there and only have them work in 4 or 5 games then.  For that, I do place part of the blame on the front office, especially given the fact that they let Chargois go for nothing. 

 

There is no way the bullpen can keep this up.  But until Molitor learns to let his starters try to work themselves out of jams and work later into the ballgames, we're going to go through 15-20 relievers this year.  

 

Finally, I hate Rule 5 pickups.  Sure, Terry Ryan plucked Johan in Rule 5, but since then, all of these GM's think they are choosing the next great thing out of Rule 5.  Its just an ego trip.  

 

As I keep telling people, we have only played 1 out of 57 games against the Royals, Tigers and White Sox, so all is not lost, and the turnaround starts tomorrow, with the Reds.

[gunnarthor]

Well, yeah. Molly isn't a great manager. We're going to have to get a few more reliable arms in the pen though. Reed, Pressley .... I'm not sure who else I trust. Rogers against lefties? Maybe. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sometimes a manager needs to know when something is working and when to NOT touch anything. Today was that day. I was following on the web and hated seeing Gibson come out and then all those substitutions at the end.

[Mike Sixel]

I thought he, mostly, handled the pieces he's been given well today. Today is on the front office and their choice of Rodney, imo. Note, I said today.... Not every day

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I thought he, mostly, handled the pieces he's been given well today. Today is on the front office and their choice of Rodney, imo. Note, I said today.... Not every day

true, it would have been unrealistic for Gibby to go the distance today, especially if he was at 95 pitches

 

95 is the new 100, apparently

[Dortmunder]

How long had it been since Rodney last pitched? It seems like it's been several days, which may have led to an excessive amount of rust for the already shaky Rodney.  Managing a bullpen through a long losing streak is a skill that Molitor may not have.

[Mike Sixel]

true, it would have been unrealistic for Gibby to go the distance today, especially if he was at 95 pitches

 

95 is the new 100, apparently

They have Reed and Rodney. Gibson had done good job, and the third time thru the order penalty is real. I guess he could have tried for one more inning, but I think he got this right. And I'm no fan....

[Sssuperdave]

I don't know, Molitor is in a lose-lose situation in this argument. What if he had left Gibby in and Gibby had given up a walk, single, and home run? Everyone would say Molitor left his starter in 3 batters too long.  In fact - I've heard that very criticism quite a bit, that he tends to leave pitchers in a better or two too long. It's not like he was pulled after 60 pitches.

 

I think there's a lot to criticize Molitor about but I'm not there on this particular issue.

[jun]

I think Duke might be a better option than Rodney right now. At least Duke has better ERA now.

[jun]

 

I don't know, Molitor is in a lose-lose situation in this argument. What if he had left Gibby in and Gibby had given up a walk, single, and home run? Everyone would say Molitor left his starter in 3 batters too long.  In fact - I've heard that very criticism quite a bit, that he tends to leave pitchers in a better or two too long. It's not like he was pulled after 60 pitches.

 

I think there's a lot to criticize Molitor about but I'm not there on this particular issue.

He could let Gibby pitch in the 7th, if he gives up a walk or a hit then pull him out of the game immediately. Molitor should have done the same thing with Berrios in PR.

 

[Rosterman]

Yeah, we complain when he let's someone start an inning that they shouldn't.

 

And now, in a possible win-win situation, he goes with his supposed best, the vets acquired in the off-season. Like Duffey, Pressly, Rogers and the ink are leftovers from last year and can't always be trusted.

 

Does he know the bullpen?

 

Rodney is NOT getting it done.

 

I might've pulled Duke after he got someone on base. But who do I go to...an overworked Pressly, the newcomer Slegers, Hildenberger who needs to be shipped out, Duffey?

 

Rodney is NOT getting it done.

 

Rodney needs to be the backend guy, for now, until he proves otherwise. Let him do his show in non pressure situations (i.e. leads of 3+ runs). 

 

What is the feeling in the clubhouse, after this hard fought game where every out counted, every run scored was a chore.

[yarnivek1972]

What would the Nat’s want for Kintzler?

[yarnivek1972]

btw, are we done giving credit to Castro for his handling of the pitching staff?

 

It seems to me if some are going to give him credit when they do well, he needs to accept criticism when they do poorly. Roughly 2/3 of the staff have pitched poorly.

[TKGuy]

I certainly was not implying that Molitor's handling of the bullpen cost the Twins this game.  However, he has to let the starters go farther into games or our bullpen will be spent by mid year.  

 

It was clearly Molitor's decision to pull Gibson as Gibson stated after the game he would have liked the chance to go back out but you have to trust a "hall of famer's instincts."  We needed one more inning out of Gibby, which would have meant one less appearance for Reed or Duke.

 

I have just never liked how he's handled the bullpen in any of his years as manager.  Between that and bunting with the clean up guy, I'm not a big fan...

[nicksaviking]

I would have hoped that this team learned after last year that being a vet doesn't make a pitcher superior.

 

Though I also would have hoped the young guys would be making a more compelling case to put them in high leverage situations.

[Oxtung]

I've actually liked how he handled the bullpen for the most part this season. I especially like today how he used Reed to face the Yankee's 4, 5, 6, 7 hitters today in the seventh inning allowing Duke to come in to face the potentially 7, 8, 9, 1 hitters. 

 

I think the bigger problem by far is that everyone except Reed and Pressly have been a problem to start this season.

[USAFChief]

As someone who frequently criticises Molitor for his bullpen moves--or non moves--I had zero problem with Molitor's moves today.

 

It was time to get Gibson out, and he did. He gave Reed the 7th, Duke the 7th, as mentioned above. Gave his closer a 2 run lead, clean inning.

[mikelink45]

I believe the narrative has been - Molitor left Gibson in too long!  Well if I was Molitor I would look at those six innings - say thanks - and get someone else in too.  We cannot have it both ways.  If Gibson came back and blew up we would blame Molitor, if Molitor brings him out when he is doing great and the relief pitchers blow it we blame Molitor.  I am so glad I am not a baseball manager. 

[Thrylos]

 

true, it would have been unrealistic for Gibby to go the distance today, especially if he was at 95 pitches

95 is the new 100, apparently

 

Nah.  The third time around an order is the new 100...

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I certainly was not implying that Molitor's handling of the bullpen cost the Twins this game.  However, he has to let the starters go farther into games or our bullpen will be spent by mid year.

This is exactly right.

[Dave The Dastardly]

 

Nah.  The third time around an order is the new 100...

Nah! What the new order should be is do away with "starters". What we need is a bunch of long relievers. Everybody goes three innings; nobody hits the dreaded 100 pitches, nobody has to go three times through the batting order, nobody has to pace themselves so they can all rear back and hurl because they know three innings and they're done and there's no need for a closer. Just give Berrios the last three innings. Nine three-inning guys so they pitch every 3rd game and 2-3 relievers that can fill an inning here and there and you got your pitching staff. Even Molly can handle it.

[nicksaviking]

Nah! What the new order should be is do away with "starters". What we need is a bunch of long relievers. Everybody goes three innings; nobody hits the dreaded 100 pitches, nobody has to go three times through the batting order, nobody has to pace themselves so they can all rear back and hurl because they know three innings and they're done and there's no need for a closer. Just give Berrios the last three innings. Nine three-inning guys so they pitch every 3rd game and 2-3 relievers that can fill an inning here and there and you got your pitching staff. Even Molly can handle it.

The Twins have about two maybe three guys I'd trust to go three innings, and they need nine to make your plan work?

 

I'd rather Berrios pith 200 innings this year, not 162.

[Dave The Dastardly]

 

The Twins have about two maybe three guys I'd trust to go three innings, and they need nine to make your plan work?

I'd rather Berrios pith 200 innings this year, not 162.

I hear you. But let's look at the most common complaints we hear about handling pitchers;

 

1) The mythical 100-pitch limit - if pitchers go over 100 pitches they'll ruin their arms

2) The less mythical 3-times through the order complaint - after a batter faces a starting pitcher for the third time in one game, he's got the pitcher figured out and will therefore pound the crap out of his stuff

3) Managers either take starters out too early, or leave them in too long

4) Managers "burn out" their relievers by using them too often - the infamous "save the bullpen", which, oddly enough, runs contradictory to taking starters out before they hit the mythical 100-pitch limit and self-destruct.

 

9 pitchers limited to three innings per game, pitching every 3rd game, "solves" all four "problems".

 

And with 3 official relievers in the bull pen, the manager can use one for 1 inning in each 3-inning segment if the "regular" approaches the dreaded 100-pitch limit during his three innings of work.

 

 

And as long as we're at it (I'm hiding in my home office to avoid having to watch some drivel on TV with the Little Woman) let's analyze the 200 innings per season versus the 162 innings you brought up.

 

IF pitching too much (too many innings of use for relievers and/or the 100-pitch limit for starters) what the sport is saying is that a pitcher has only so many innings/pitches in his arm. If not, why do we bother keeping track of both?

 

So if we agree that a pitcher has a lifetime limit for innings (and pitches), and if our goal is to "save" everyone's arm, a 162 inning season will lengthen a pitcher's pitching lifetime by approximately 2 years, assuming the average pitcher has "it" for ten years. (200 innings x 10 years = 2,000 pitches, whereas 162 innings x 10 years = 1,620 pitches. Difference of 380 innings, thus allowing the pitcher to throw for at least more two seasons without increasing the wear-and-tear on his arm. In effect, we get an effective Berrios for 12 years instead of 10.

 

Lastly, (I'm still stalling so I don't have to watch TV, a sad way to fritter away one's mind) I accept your 9 pitcher challenge and have listed below 10 (always good to have a spare) Twins pitchers I would trust to throw three innings, and not lose any more games than we already have been.

 

I invite your discourse as that will prolong my stay in the office.

 

In no particular order.

 

Berrios

Santana

Gibson

Odorizzi

Duffy

Romero

Gonsalves

Pressley

Reed

Slegers

 

 

 

[Old Twins Cap]

Sometimes, like today, if Gibson pitched well, you take that 6 innings and you say, "Job well done".

 

Gibson gets that feeling of having succeeded.

 

Problem is, when the bullpen fails, it creates a level of anxiety in the starters, as in: "Oh man, I've got to go all the way today."

 

So, it can work to take Gibson out after 6 with 10 Ks. Or, it can be something that backfires.

 

Twins are backfiring in every direction right now.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I hear you. But let's look at the most common complaints we hear about handling pitchers;

 

1) The mythical 100-pitch limit - if pitchers go over 100 pitches they'll ruin their arms

2) The less mythical 3-times through the order complaint - after a batter faces a starting pitcher for the third time in one game, he's got the pitcher figured out and will therefore pound the crap out of his stuff

3) Managers either take starters out too early, or leave them in too long

4) Managers "burn out" their relievers by using them too often - the infamous "save the bullpen", which, oddly enough, runs contradictory to taking starters out before they hit the mythical 100-pitch limit and self-destruct.

 

9 pitchers limited to three innings per game, pitching every 3rd game, "solves" all four "problems".

 

And with 3 official relievers in the bull pen, the manager can use one for 1 inning in each 3-inning segment if the "regular" approaches the dreaded 100-pitch limit during his three innings of work.

 

 

And as long as we're at it (I'm hiding in my home office to avoid having to watch some drivel on TV with the Little Woman) let's analyze the 200 innings per season versus the 162 innings you brought up.

 

IF pitching too much (too many innings of use for relievers and/or the 100-pitch limit for starters) what the sport is saying is that a pitcher has only so many innings/pitches in his arm. If not, why do we bother keeping track of both?

 

So if we agree that a pitcher has a lifetime limit for innings (and pitches), and if our goal is to "save" everyone's arm, a 162 inning season will lengthen a pitcher's pitching lifetime by approximately 2 years, assuming the average pitcher has "it" for ten years. (200 innings x 10 years = 2,000 pitches, whereas 162 innings x 10 years = 1,620 pitches. Difference of 380 innings, thus allowing the pitcher to throw for at least more two seasons without increasing the wear-and-tear on his arm. In effect, we get an effective Berrios for 12 years instead of 10.

 

Lastly, (I'm still stalling so I don't have to watch TV, a sad way to fritter away one's mind) I accept your 9 pitcher challenge and have listed below 10 (always good to have a spare) Twins pitchers I would trust to throw three innings, and not lose any more games than we already have been.

 

I invite your discourse as that will prolong my stay in the office.

 

In no particular order.

 

Berrios

Santana

Gibson

Odorizzi

Duffy

Romero

Gonsalves

Pressley

Reed

Slegers

LaRussa did try this (Stl?) not forever ago, and maybe another team. In LaRussa's case it didn't last long (not sure why it stopped, maybe it didn't work or the pitchers rebelled).

 

Question: What happens if your first guy goes 9 up, 9 down?