Berrios and the Front Office

[TheLeviathan]

Man are some tunes going to magically change if Berrios is the guy who gets the call.....

[Twodogs]

 

The same coaches, who haven't produced anything more than a #5 from the org in damn near 15 years (Baker and Radke)

Radke was no #5, he was, in his heyday, probably better than Ervin Santana.  He was no Ace, but he was a Legit #3 on any staff back then, probably a #2 on the mediocre ones and an Ace for the 3 or 4 really bad teams like the Twins.  I mean go through all 30 teams #1 pitchers right now and I'd bet you that you'd rather have Radke in his prime that probably at least 10 - 12 of the so called Aces right now.

[drjim]

Man are some tunes going to magically change if Berrios is the guy who gets the call.....

Starting with Molitor and the front office.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Starting with Molitor and the front office.

 

Agreed, but some posters here too.

[drjim]

Agreed, but some posters here too.

Sure. But I give speculation from online posters a little less weight than direct words from the organization.

 

Berrios now would be a stunning reversal. If I had to predict the next start is from Gibson.

[Twodogs]

Prettying much missed the whole point there, I think...

Yeah I get it, and I agree that the Twins have done a terrible job developing pitchers. Yeah that's about it for decent starting pitchers that the Twins have developed in recent years. I just didn't agree with bashing Radke as he was decent for a prolonged period of time, Moonshot Baker however, bash away

[yarnivek1972]

Sure. But I give speculation from online posters a little less weight than direct words from the organization.

 

Berrios now would be a stunning reversal. If I had to predict the next start is from Gibson.

How do you figure that? Gibson can't be recalled for at least 10 days.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I get it, and I agree that the Twins have done a terrible job developing pitchers. Yeah that's about it for decent starting pitchers that the Twins have developed in recent years. I just didn't agree with bashing Radke as he was decent for a prolonged period of time, Moonshot Baker however, bash away

[DaveW]

Yeah I get it, and I agree that the Twins have done a terrible job developing pitchers. Yeah that's about it for decent starting pitchers that the Twins have developed in recent years. I just didn't agree with bashing Radke as he was decent for a prolonged period of time, Moonshot Baker however, bash away

[Twodogs]

Dude you literally are still missing the point. I said that every pitcher not named Radke or Baker were number 5's

 

Radke was a solid #2 for many yearsz

Oh got it, I did not read it that way. I read it as they've developed nothing except Radke and Baker and that they were #5's. Sorry that's just the way I saw it.

[yarnivek1972]

I think you have to count Johan Santana. He had only pitched at low A ball before the Twins. And Johan himself gave Edmonton pitching coach Bobby Cuellar a lot of credit for developing the change up that made him who he was.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sure. But I give speculation from online posters a little less weight than direct words from the organization.

Berrios now would be a stunning reversal. If I had to predict the next start is from Gibson.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure why.  Organizations blow smoke at us all the time.

[drjim]

Honestly, I'm not sure why. Organizations blow smoke at us all the time.

Sure, but usually it serves a purpose.

[drjim]

How do you figure that? Gibson can't be recalled for at least 10 days.

They don't need a starter until next Saturday, but it is 9 days, not 10. So miscounted.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sure, but usually it serves a purpose.

 

To obfuscate.  At least the posters here are genuinely trying to make sense of things.  Most FOs stand in front of cameras and microphones and intentionally do the exact opposite.  

 

At best they seek to placate.

[Rhino and Compass]

I'm not sure whether this has been noted or not, because I was too lazy to read all the posts, but is it at all possible that the Twins are leaving Berriios at Triple A because they were running a 4 man rotation since Mejia was sent down? Tepesch, not a prospect, was keeping a roster spot warm because he didn't need to work and develop, whereas Berrios and Mejia did. Now with Gibson off the roster, and not as many off days in the near future, there are two rotation spots available. Maybe a couple starts go to Tepech, but maybe Majia or Berrios come back. Maybe to make space on the roster, now is the time that Michael Tonkin finally is given his walking papers. 

What if this is all about roster management? If Berrios isn't back up by Memorial Day, I'll get suspicious, but right now, I'm not so much

[drjim]

 

To obfuscate.  At least the posters here are genuinely trying to make sense of things.  Most FOs stand in front of cameras and microphones and intentionally do the exact opposite.  

 

At best they seek to placate.

 

But to obfuscate what in this case? Who is being placated by saying Berrios is staying down? What advantage is gained?

 

I won't argue that it isn't done, but usually it is for a purpose beyond just because they can.

[jimmer]

 

To obfuscate.  At least the posters here are genuinely trying to make sense of things.  Most FOs stand in front of cameras and microphones and intentionally do the exact opposite.  

 

At best they seek to placate.

Our PoBO and our new GM shouldn't have to pay the bill for what the previous GM used to do.

[DJSim22]

 

How patient would everyone be if his struggles are as bad as last year? Comparable to Buxton's ineptitude for months at a time? Would you be willing to take this first-place Twins team and just forfeit 20% or more of their games for the next month or two? At what point would even you throw up your hands and say send him down until he straightens out his flaws?

 

It wreaks havoc on a team and a bullpen when a starter is getting knocked out in the 4th inning every time out, and those effects are felt for the next 2-3 games as well. I'd be fine if Berrios were called up now, but I'd also expect to see a drastic improvement from last year before I'd extend his stay beyond 3-4 games.

 

You know all about Twins Daily!  Scream about guys stuck in the minors and scream about them after they are called up.  It's a beautiful cycle.

 

 

[Brandon]

Hiw much service time did berrios get last year. How long till we gain an extra year of control? Could that play into when he gets called up?

[DJSim22]

 

I highly doubt they'd be that petty or unprofessional. I do believe that they didn't want him to go to the WBC, but that was because they wanted more time to work with him during a critical phase of his development. That was a big opportunity to utilize a controlled learning environment where the games don't count and everyone can watch him.

 

Maybe he'd have been ready to come up by now if that were the case. Instead, he went off to rot on a bench for weeks, away from the coaches that know him and have his best interests in mind. That resulted in a setback that he's having to work through now.

 

You don't think they would intentionally sabotage their team and top pitching prospect?  Me either. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

But to obfuscate what in this case? Who is being placated by saying Berrios is staying down? What advantage is gained?

 

I won't argue that it isn't done, but usually it is for a purpose beyond just because they can.

 

Look, this isn't uncommon or specific to the Twins.  I mean, the worst at it (by far) is Belichek.  This isn't some Twins specific criticism.

 

What I was referring to was the way the FO talks about the "why".  This isn't about whether or not a transaction is happening, it's how they respond when the fan base or the media starts asking the questions about "why".  You'll almost never hear a sports organization talk openly about why they are doing something that isn't overwhelmingly popular among their fan base.  They'll be vague to protect themselves or the player, they'll say things to reassure the fan base (and the player), or they'll just flat out say what they think makes the problem go away quickest.  

 

I don't see why I should put any more stock in that BS.  I'm not sure I can think of an organization that doesn't operate this way.  At least a lot of the posters here are just trying to figure things out because they care about the team.  Both have reasons to be skeptical.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Hiw much service time did berrios get last year. How long till we gain an extra year of control? Could that play into when he gets called up?

He would have to be down until basically July this year in order to get an extra year service time.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

You know all about Twins Daily!  Scream about guys stuck in the minors and scream about them after they are called up.  It's a beautiful cycle.

You sure those are the same people doing all tthe screaming? I tend to see different posters taking different positions.

[Darius]

I agree with everything except #3.

 

Not sure how Berrios "wasn't stretched out" if guys like Hughes and Santiago were. Not a huge inning differential there. Santiago pitched very limited innings out of the bullpen on the same WBC squad as Berrios, and Hughes was coming off the surgery, and was unable to touch 90 for much of the spring.

 

Also, don't you think all of these guys were throwing regular bullpens on the side? It's not like Berrios didn't touch a baseball for a month and half. If you're throwing 60-70 pitches, for guys who have spent their entire life pitching, does it really matter much if it's on a bullpen or against a live batter? These guys are throwing all year round, if they're not recovering from an injury (which Hughes was).

 

Not to mention, It's not like Molly was letting guys throw 140 pitch complete games the first few weeks of the season. If I recall, he took Ervin Santana, the staff ace, out in the midst of a shutout before he even got to 90.

[DJSim22]

 

You sure those are the same people doing all tthe screaming? I tend to see different posters taking different positions.

 

I tend to see a handful of regulars do this.  I also see posters getting questioned far more often if they don't have thousands of posts.  Those are my observations. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I tend to see a handful of regulars do this.  I also see posters getting questioned far more often if they don't have thousands of posts.  Those are my observations. 

That's fair. Just a nitpick of mine.

[DaveW]

I think you have to count Johan Santana. He had only pitched at low A ball before the Twins. And Johan himself gave Edmonton pitching coach Bobby Cuellar a lot of credit for developing the change up that made him who he was.

still 10+ years ago

[DaveW]

Hiw much service time did berrios get last year. How long till we gain an extra year of control? Could that play into when he gets called up?

Hi Pohlad!

[mikelink45]

I am not sure why we are expected to give the new FO any extra patience.  This is a team and it is a team that has given the fan who pays for the stadium through taxes and the games through attendance and therefore has accrued a level of frustration that is justified.  Maybe we will find Falvey and Lavine to be geniuses, but what do we have to hang on to?  What have they demonstrated - Castro and Giminez???? 

 

Like so many I am impatient for some new results, for some demonstration that they have a plan, an idea, a path for us to follow, but they have not given us anything to grab onto.  I hope for their success, but I have no loyalty to them.  The majority of the front office is the same, the coaching staff is mostly the same, the minor league system is the same.  

 

Of course we clamor for Berrios.  He is hope and we all want hope.  Sano has given it to us, Santana has shined.  But is that enough?   

If we expect Berrios and others to prove themselves then Falvey and Lavine have to prove themselves and so far they are struggling rookies like the rest.