Souhan rips Perkins and Hughes

[Guest]

News flash: Perkins and Hughes are on the downside, at best, regardless of injury status. On the days they signed their latest contracts, they were depreciating assets, losing value as quickly as a new Chrysler coming off the lot. They were signed as much for the PR value as for projections of future value.

[Eris]

I think it is really bad when management questions the work ethic of hurt players they have signed to longer term contracts.  If these players had such poor work habits, maybe management should have done their homework and recognized this before signing them to long term contracts.

 

How bad can it get?  Below are some excerpts from the linked articles about Johan Santana.  Several weeks after the initial article appeared, he was diagnosed with another shoulder tear and has never pitched again.  

 

PORT ST. LUCIE — The Mets believe it is “self-evident” that Johan Santana reported to spring training last month out of pitching shape, a result of offseason inactivity.

Asked on Saturday that very question — did Santana arrive in Port St. Lucie out of pitching shape — general manager Sandy Alderson told the Daily News, “That is fair to say, based on what we have seen in camp.”

That is not a shocking statement; if Santana is not pitching, it follows that he cannot possibly be in pitching shape. But it does underscore the team’s frustration and surprise that an essential player was not ready to pitch earlier in the Grapefruit League season, and is questionable for Opening Day.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mets-frustrated-out-of-shape-santana-article-1.1277872

 

http://nypost.com/2013/03/29/shoulder-re-tear-could-finish-santanas-tenure-with-mets/

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I think it is really bad when management questions the work ethic of hurt players they have signed to longer term contracts. If these players had such poor work habits, maybe management should have done their homework and recognized this before signing them to long term contracts.

 

How bad can it get? Below are some excerpts from the linked articles about Johan Santana. Several weeks after the initial article appeared, he was diagnosed with another shoulder tear and has never pitched again.

 

PORT ST. LUCIE — The Mets believe it is “self-evident” that Johan Santana reported to spring training last month out of pitching shape, a result of offseason inactivity.

Asked on Saturday that very question — did Santana arrive in Port St. Lucie out of pitching shape — general manager Sandy Alderson told the Daily News, “That is fair to say, based on what we have seen in camp.”

That is not a shocking statement; if Santana is not pitching, it follows that he cannot possibly be in pitching shape. But it does underscore the team’s frustration and surprise that an essential player was not ready to pitch earlier in the Grapefruit League season, and is questionable for Opening Day.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mets-frustrated-out-of-shape-santana-article-1.1277872

 

http://nypost.com/2013/03/29/shoulder-re-tear-could-finish-santanas-tenure-with-mets/

Just playing devil's advocate here. But, don't you think it's possible Santana could have injured his shoulder by pitching when he wasn't in pitching shape?

[DaveW]

Like when Reusse called out Sano at the beginning of the year? No wait - we were upset he did it then. It seems there is no time a reporter can write a article critical of a player, unless it's Nolasco, then it's okay.

That reusse article implied a lot of things besides the "out of shape" thing.

[Reider]

 

 

Perkins doesn’t project urgency with his words or actions.

 

This Souhan guy is out of touch with reality. When I think of the word urgency and how it's applied to everyday life, I think of a hockey team that's down by a goal or two with less than 5 minutes remaining in the 3rd period. That team needs to play with a sense of urgency.

 

With Glenn Perkins, we are talking about an injury. Urgency has no place in the realm of injuries. I'm not sure what Souhan is expecting from Perkins, but it doesn't matter what Perkins says in an interview, his injury will have to heal on it's own time. It's quite clear from Perkins' interview that he has a plan moving forward and has every intent on executing that plan, regardless of how long it takes his shoulder to heal.

 

And that's only the tip of the iceberg... he talks about Perkins inspiring pessimism throughout the organization... 

 

 

 

there is one key figure who questions whether Perkins will pitch again this season. The latter is probably more indicative of the pessimism Perkins has inspired in the organization than a reflection of reality.

 

Inspiring Pessimism? No urgency?

 

We are talking about an injured 3 time All-Star here.

 

Please.

 

[Eris]

 

Just playing devil's advocate here. But, don't you think it's possible Santana could have injured his shoulder by pitching when he wasn't in pitching shape?

 

In this case one never knows for sure what Johan Santana could have been done to arrive in camp better prepared and if that would have made a difference in the outcome.  (Your point could be correct).   I think Johan Santana was a very intense competitor and by management calling into question his work ethic, he went out and threw when he should not have.  That was the end of his career.  Would the outcome have been different if the Mets management would have taken a different approach.  That was my point.  

 

This is what is in debate here.  Are Perkins and Hughes really hurt or are they just wimps?  Management is doing everyone a disservice by taking these public and I really question their motives.  And in the end there is not positive long term benefit that will arise from an environment where players are discourage  from bringing injuries to the attention of management.   We are not talking about Pablo Sandoval here.  At least in Perkins case (as others TD members have noted) he was pitching hurt last year when he should not have been pitching.  My recollection of Phil Hughes is that his career started very well until he injured his hamstring and then ankle while trying to pitch through the injury.  He was never really same pitcher after those injuries (I am not sure why and if there is a correlation).

 

 

[Eris]

I tried to edit my previous post but I can't do that (not sure why).  I would add.

 

This comes after the learning this spring that Joe Mauer played last season with double vision.  Perhaps both Joe Mauer and the Twins organization (depending on their insurance situation) would have been better off if Joe would have acknowledged his injury last season.

[Mr. Brooks]

In this case one never knows for sure what Johan Santana could have been done to arrive in camp better prepared and if that would have made a difference in the outcome. (Your point could be correct). I think Johan Santana was a very intense competitor and by management calling into question his work ethic, he went out and threw when he should not have. That was the end of his career. Would the outcome have been different if the Mets management would have taken a different approach. That was my point.

 

This is what is in debate here. Are Perkins and Hughes really hurt or are they just wimps? Management is doing everyone a disservice by taking these public and I really question their motives. And in the end there is not positive long term benefit that will arise from an environment where players are discourage from bringing injuries to the attention of management. We are not talking about Pablo Sandoval here. At least in Perkins case (as others TD members have noted) he was pitching hurt last year when he should not have been pitching. My recollection of Phil Hughes is that his career started very well until he injured his hamstring and then ankle while trying to pitch through the injury. He was never really same pitcher after those injuries (I am not sure why and if there is a correlation).

Oh I agree, Johan is probably my favorite post Kirby Twin, and I have zero reason to doubt his work ethic. Like I said, just playing devil's advocate.

[KGB]

That reusse article implied a lot of things besides the "out of shape" thing.

I wish Sano wasn't doing such a good job proving Reusse correct. Makes me worried Souhan is also on the right track.

[DaveW]

 

I wish Sano wasn't doing such a good job proving Reusse correct. Makes me worried Souhan is also on the right track.

Sano will be fine.

[Shane Wahl]

 

I wish Sano wasn't doing such a good job proving Reusse correct. Makes me worried Souhan is also on the right track.

How is he proving him right? What about Sano's performance has to due with the *shape* he is in?

Maybe it has more to do with the raging incompetence of moving a rising star to a new position for no good damn reason?

[KGB]

 

How is he proving him right? What about Sano's performance has to due with the *shape* he is in?

Maybe it has more to do with the raging incompetence of moving a rising star to a new position for no good damn reason?

.219

 

Being jerked by the Cubs with his position change is also killing Kris Bryant's production - isn't it?

[DaveW]

 

.219

 

Being jerked by the Cubs with his position change is also killing Kris Bryant's production - isn't it?

Or Kyle Schwarber for that matte.....oops.

 

 

[ken]

Or Kyle Schwarber for that matte.....oops.

Didn't Sano miss more time for injuries last year as DH then he missed this year as an OF'er this year?

[Mike Sixel]

Kris Bryant was an adult, college student. I am told we should judge their maturity differently than a young man like Sano. Putting that aside......Do people think the position change is effecting him, our not? I do.

[DaveW]

Kris Bryant was an adult, college student. I am told we should judge their maturity differently than a young man like Sano. Putting that aside......Do people think the position change is effecting him, our not? I do.

Absolutely it is.

[KGB]

 

Kris Bryant was an adult, college student. I am told we should judge their maturity differently than a young man like Sano. Putting that aside......Do people think the position change is effecting him, our not? I do.

No question, Bryant is 16 month older but not sure if that is the reason for the maturity different but wasn't that the point of Reusse's column to begin with?.  No, I don't think the position change is effecting him at the plate.  A lot of players go through position changes and he doesn't appear to lack confidents at the plate, just production.

[USAFChief]

 

Kris Bryant was an adult, college student. I am told we should judge their maturity differently than a young man like Sano. Putting that aside......Do people think the position change is effecting him, our not? I do.

I don't think it is, but I really don't know.

 

I DO know it shouldn't be.  If he's that mentally fragile, he needs to toughen up--there will be lots of challenges during a long career--and maybe this will ultimately help.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Being jerked by the Cubs with his position change is also killing Kris Bryant's production - isn't it?

What position change for Bryant?  Dude is still the Cubs starting 3B most nights.  Not only that, but 111 of Bryant's first 113 MLB starts in the field came at his natural position of third base.  I'm guessing he had a more comfortable base than Sano before they began spotting him elsewhere.  (And since that point, Bryant has still started 50 out of 77 games at third base, definitely more spotting elsewhere rather than any kind of position change).

[KGB]

 

What position change for Bryant?  Dude is still the Cubs starting 3B most nights.  Not only that, but 111 of Bryant's first 113 MLB starts in the field came at his natural position of third base.  I'm guessing he had a more comfortable base than Sano before they began spotting him elsewhere.  (And since that point, Bryant has still started 50 out of 77 games at third base, definitely more spotting elsewhere rather than any kind of position change).

Bryant has played about 50% of his innings in the outfield this year.  I don't question Bryant's is more mature or has a more comfortable base than Sano.  I just really doubt Sano takes his defensive deficiencies to the plate.  He did make 15 errors in 63 games in AA at third last year and didn't have any problems hitting the ball. He has never been a good fielder and always hit.  Now, maybe he was more comfortable making errors in the infield -  but that a different argument.

[Loosey]

 

Sano will be fine.

I agree Sano will be fine.  But I also would send him down to AAA.  Not only because he is in a slump right now, but to get him away from the current environment at Target Field.  The amount of negativity surrounding the team seems to have rubbed off on every one.  Remember when he used to be a goofball that was always smiling last year.  I haven't seen much of that from him or any for that matter this year.  Maybe some time in AAA where he can be around a different environment and also beat up on some AAA pitchers will get back Sano from 2015.  Just my thoughts. But as I said in my first 5 words.  I agree.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Bryant has played about 50% of his innings in the outfield this year.  I don't question Bryant's is more mature or has a more comfortable base than Sano.  I just really doubt Sano takes his defensive deficiencies to the plate.

I'd still argue 50% isn't a "position change" remotely comparable to Sano.  For one thing, 50% is a lot higher than 13% (Sano's innings at 3B this year).  And Bryant actually had a gradual transition to the outfield, playing very little there his first ~110 games in MLB, then playing a little more there over his next ~40 games, before this year's 50% split.  There was no such gradual transition for Sano in RF.

 

The Twins seem to think defensive position can matter at the plate -- they often cited that very reason for bringing in Park, so Sano wouldn't be a full-time DH.

[KGB]

 

 

The Twins seem to think defensive position can matter at the plate -- they often cited that very reason for bringing in Park, so Sano wouldn't be a full-time DH.

The Twins never said they were moving Sano to the a position to increase his offensive production. They just didn't want to label a 22 year old as a DH only.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Twins never said they were moving Sano to the a position to increase his offensive production. They just didn't want to label a 22 year old as a DH only.

I think they believed keeping him in the field would improve his offensive outcomes, short and/or long term, otherwise why do it?  A DH only almost certainly has less risk of injury, so they must have seen enough gain elsewhere to offset that.

 

From there, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that playing a familiar/comfortable position could also improve offensive outcomes compared to an unfamiliar/uncomfortable position.

 

For another example, I am pretty sure the Twins cited Cuddyer's moves around the field as holding back his offense, Mauer's move to first base impacting his offense, Dozier too, etc.

[KGB]

 

I think they believed keeping him in the field would improve his offensive outcomes, short and/or long term, otherwise why do it?  A DH only almost certainly has less risk of injury, so they must have seen enough gain elsewhere to offset that.

 

From there, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that playing a familiar/comfortable position could also improve offensive outcomes compared to an unfamiliar/uncomfortable position.

 

For another example, I am pretty sure the Twins cited Cuddyer's moves around the field as holding back his offense, Mauer's move to first base impacting his offense, Dozier too, etc.

I think at Sano's age, you don't want to make his a full time DH.  Also Sano's agent wouldn't want him only to be a DH for his future value.  With Plouffe at third, Ryan has said since 2014 that they were considering moving Sano to the outfield.  I don't believe it was done to improve the offense, everyone would have been happy seeing him continue what he was doing last year.

 

For Cuddyer, if I remember the issue correctly, they didn't want to continue to shuffling him between positions.  Which I think is also the reason the Twins said they wanted to keep Sano in the outfield for the year and not shuffle him between OF & 3B. For Mauer, the move is one of a hundred excuses used to explain the drop in production, but getting harder to believe in year 3 of the drop.  Wasn't Dozier actually used more at short so his offense improved with his move and looking at his struggles this year, I think it clear it more his approach at the plate and not his position in the field that effect his offense.

 

I believe Sano will be okay, but they are going to have to make adjustments and commit to improve during the offseason.  It's the different between being just good or being great and I want Sano to be great.

[Mike Sixel]

If they thought he might need to move to the OF, why did he NEVER play it in the minors? Where was the foresight and planning? Some of us thought of it back then......

 

I also don't get the whole "if you are young, it is evil/bad/wrong to be a DH". If he isn't playing 3B, and he's awful in the OF, isn't he worth more as a DH? 

[Thrylos]

 

The Twins never said they were moving Sano to the a position to increase his offensive production. They just didn't want to label a 22 year old as a DH only.

 

Sano has a position IIRC.  Why didn't they play him there?  Were scholarships or tenure associated with those positions?

[KGB]

 

Sano has a position IIRC.  Why didn't they play him there?  Were scholarships or tenure associated with those positions?

Are you saying Sano the scholarship and Plouffe is the tenure position?

[KGB]

 

If they thought he might need to move to the OF, why did he NEVER play it in the minors? Where was the foresight and planning? Some of us thought of it back then......

 

I also don't get the whole "if you are young, it is evil/bad/wrong to be a DH". If he isn't playing 3B, and he's awful in the OF, isn't he worth more as a DH? 

http://www.startribune.com/ryan-tells-twins-fans-sano-could-be-headed-for-the-outfield/278610501/

 

Here's October 2014, where Ryan is saying Sano could be headed for the outfield.  Why didn't he move him in the minors?  Sano's offense is what going to get him to the majors, not his defense so playing him a few games in the minors in the OF wasn't going to make a difference.  He had the offseason to prepare for the move.  Miguel Cabrera started his big league career as an outfielder with about 5 innings in the minors.  Like a lot of players who switch positions at the big league, it doesn't effect their offense.

 

http://www.startribune.com/miguel-sano-aims-to-show-twins-he-can-handle-the-outfield/370392841/

 

"I have a chance to be on the field and help my team with my defense,” Sano said, “and I’m too young to be a DH.”

 

I think Sano explains the DH thing pretty good.  In a few years he going to be looking for a big payday, why would you want to limit your value to half the teams?

[Mike Sixel]

We don't agree. Playing him half the time in the OF in the minors the last year or so, imo, would have better prepared him for game action.