Souhan rips Perkins and Hughes

[Thrylos]

 

Are you saying Sano the scholarship and Plouffe is the tenure position?

 

I am saying that Plouffe has both a scholarship and a tenured position.  This is a Morneau/Mientkiewicz situation (and Plouffe is not as good as Mient was)

[KGB]

 

We don't agree. Playing him half the time in the OF in the minors the last year or so, imo, would have better prepared him for game action. 

I don't disagree with the more time he spends in the outfield, the better he will be.  I just disagree that playing in the outfield is effecting him at the plate and with Sano, what he does with the bat is his most important contribution.

[KGB]

 

I am saying that Plouffe has both a scholarship and a tenured position.  This is a Morneau/Mientkiewicz situation (and Plouffe is not as good as Mient was)

Plouffe has been a midlevel major league player for a few years now, not sure how you consider that a scholarship position.  It's not like the Twins are the Ivy League of MLB, but everyone has the right to their opinion.

[Thrylos]

 

Plouffe has been a midlevel major league player for a few years now, not sure how you consider that a scholarship position.  It's not like the Twins are the Ivy League of MLB, but everyone has the right to their opinion.

 

Would you use the same argument for keeping Pierzynski at C and Mientkiewicz at 1B and move Mauer and Morneau to the OF?

 

This is what Ryan has done this season. (And worse, because the two mentioned above were better players than Plouffe)

 

Cannot defend the Sano move, without complaining about the Mauer and Morneau.  Same situation.

 

And the results are in the standings.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

 

Miguel Cabrera started his big league career as an outfielder with about 5 innings in the minors.  Like a lot of players who switch positions at the big league, it doesn't effect their offense.

Miguel Cabrera is one of baseball's all-time great hitters.  To expect others, even a prospect as good as Sano, to make the same fast and successful adaptation as Cabrera, no matter what you throw at them, is not realistic.

 

Also, Cabrera was only in his second pro season as a third baseman at the time.  And by all accounts, Cabrera was much smaller/slimmer at the time (a full 3 years younger than Sano is this season).

 

Further, Cabrera wasn't asked to be a full-time outfielder as a rookie in the field -- he split time between the outfield and third base, even into the postseason.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I just disagree that playing in the outfield is effecting him at the plate

I don't think it is effecting him either -- although it might be affecting him.

 

Seriously, though I don't think it is THE factor, but it's probably not helping.  He was good at the plate last year, but far from perfect (elevated K%, streakiness).  If his future value will be determined at the plate, let him focus on that for awhile longer until he is solid at the plate in MLB, either at DH or at the one defensive position he has played at every level since rookie ball.

[KGB]

 

Miguel Cabrera is one of baseball's all-time great hitters.  To expect others, even a prospect as good as Sano, to make the same fast and successful adaptation as Cabrera, no matter what you throw at them, is not realistic.

 

Also, Cabrera was only in his second pro season as a third baseman at the time.  And by all accounts, Cabrera was much smaller/slimmer at the time (a full 3 years younger than Sano is this season).

 

Further, Cabrera wasn't asked to be a full-time outfielder as a rookie in the field -- he split time between the outfield and third base, even into the postseason.

Sano also wasn't asked to play the outfield in his rookie season.  Here's a breakdown of games played for Cabrera:

 

                              3B              OF

2003                       34              55

2004                         0             159

2005                       30              134

 

Sano & Cabrera were the same size as 16 year olds, the fact that Sano is 50 lbs bigger at 22 might be a Sano problem.

 

Cabrera is one of the greatest hitters of all-time.  Like people who were predicting a MVP for Sano this year on this site, I have high hopes for Sano.

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

So, hindsight being 20/20 lets rip a guy with a torn labrum and potentially ended career as s sissy. Well done Mr. Souhan!

[DaveW]

Souhan needs to go, give the job to Nick N.

[spinowner]

 

So, hindsight being 20/20 lets rip a guy with a torn labrum and potentially ended career as s sissy. Well done Mr. Souhan!

Now let's see if he publishes an apology. I'll give him until tomorrow.

[KGB]

"Criticizing injured players is risky. We find out in the near future either Perkins or Hughes are damaged more than we or even they realized."

 

I think he already had the disclaimer.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

"Criticizing injured players is risky. We find out in the near future either Perkins or Hughes are damaged more than we or even they realized."

 

I think he already had the disclaimer.

sure, it's like saying "No offense but..." You can preface an offensive statement with that phrase, it doesn't change that it was an offensive statement.

[twinsnorth49]

As if there already wasn't  enough reasons not to read Souhan, this one should seal the deal for anyone still interested.

[KGB]

sure, it's like saying "No offense but..." You can preface an offensive statement with that phrase, it doesn't change that it was an offensive statement.

 

A statement can be both offensive and accurate.

[jimmer]

 

sure, it's like saying "No offense but..." You can preface an offensive statement with that phrase, it doesn't change that it was an offensive statement.

that's kind of like, 'With all due respect'.  Be surprised how many times that gets used in the military where the person saying it thinks he/she is covered from the disrespectful comment that follows.

[ashbury]

Late to this discussion. What I found more interesting in Souhan's article was

• there is finger-pointing in the clubhouse, and
• there is blame-shifting in the front office.

The former is not really news, as I recall there being rumblings of players being unhappy with one teammate or another before. Actually I thought Hughes had been one of the finger-pointers, but obviously not in this case.

 

The latter is IMO new. Now, during any off-season, probably every player except ones with no-trade clauses are at least open for internal discussion of trade. So it can't be a shock if trading Perkins was on the table. Nevertheless someone in the FO wanted Souhan to know that he was in favor, and to me that smacks of open dissension, and/or jockeying to retain jobs in the coming housecleaning.

 

Maybe this was already discussed in the lengthy thread here and I overlooked it.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Late to this discussion. What I found more interesting in Souhan's article was

• there is finger-pointing in the clubhouse, and
• there is blame-shifting in the front office.

The former is not really news, as I recall there being rumblings of players being unhappy with one teammate or another before. Actually I thought Hughes had been one of the finger-pointers, but obviously not in this case.

 

The latter is IMO new. Now, during any off-season, probably every player except ones with no-trade clauses are at least open for internal discussion of trade. So it can't be a shock if trading Perkins was on the table. Nevertheless someone in the FO wanted Souhan to know that he was in favor, and to me that smacks of open dissension, and/or jockeying to retain jobs in the coming housecleaning.

 

Maybe this was already discussed in the lengthy thread here and I overlooked it.

i think the injury news may change how this angle is thought of. If many of us said "Man stick a fork in Perk. The guy just can't get healthy, there must be something really wrong". So did some members of the FO. It's worth looking at again in new context

[ashbury]

i think the injury news may change how this angle is thought of. If many of us said "Man stick a fork in Perk. The guy just can't get healthy, there must be something really wrong". So did some members of the FO. It's worth looking at again in new context

The rightness or wrongness of the forecast doesn't change the bigger picture that someone wanted to let the writer know that he was right and others in the FO were wrong. I don't see that kind of whisper make it to print very often, but maybe it's more common than I remember.

[h2oface]

Also, isn't Perkins like really into long distance running or something? That seems to clash with the idea that his conditioning was poor.... I mean the guy is running half marathons and stuff, it's not like he was sitting on his couch all off-season or something.

 

Perkins has been a class act his whole time in Minnesota and has been a heckuva player for the Twins, it's really crappy that the org is making him out to be the scapegoat now. "Minnesota nice" indeed, "anonymous passive aggressive" comments from the front office about him. Bush league.

Truth: Perkins was quite a whiner for a couple of years as he was sent down to triple A.....even had a complaint going through the union.... so not a class act the whole time, and being consistently out of shape isn't classy either. I would have to see him running to believe it.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Truth: Perkins was quite a whiner for a couple of years as he was sent down to triple A.....even had a complaint going through the union.... so not a class act the whole time, and being consistently out of shape isn't classy either. I would have to see him running to believe it.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/289102-glen-perkins-grievance-is-settled-but-his-future-in-minnesota-is-not

 

Yup he sure did, not sure that tarnishes his "classiness". These types of things are why unions exist.

[Steve J]

My question is, why is the organization letting players play hurt?  Where is Souhan's commentary on that?

[nicksaviking]

There's a fine line between hurt and injured, and that's saying nothing of the fact that the players often blur if not outright hide that line to begin with.

 

There's a lot to criticize with the club, but I don't think forcing players to play injured is one of them.

[spinowner]

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/289102-glen-perkins-grievance-is-settled-but-his-future-in-minnesota-is-not

Yup he sure did, not sure that tarnishes his "classiness". These types of things are why unions exist.

Exactly. If the front office makes a move that breaches the contract, whether intentionally or unintentionally, the union is there to represent the player and make sure the contract is honored. The same thing would apply in the other direction. If a player or the union breaches the contract then management is fully within its rights to get matters set straight. Perkins did nothing wrong in this matter. The team screwed up and Perkins merely pointed out the mistake (by going through proper channels) so it could be corrected.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Exactly. If the front office makes a move that breaches the contract, whether intentionally or unintentionally, the union is there to represent the player and make sure the contract is honored. The same thing would apply in the other direction. If a player or the union breaches the contract then management is fully within its rights to get matters set straight. Perkins did nothing wrong in this matter. The team screwed up and Perkins merely pointed out the mistake (by going through proper channels) so it could be corrected.

I don't fault the Perkins for filing the grievance, but the Twins didn't screw up or breach any contract. Perkins was pitching poorly, he got hurt, went on the DL, did a rehab stint, and then the Twins optioned him. Arcia probably had a better case for a grievance last year. Note that Perkins didn't push the grievance too far -- they settled short of the service time that would have made Perkins arbitration eligible that winter.

[h2oface]

I don't fault him for filing then either, but I felt he was a whiner in that instance. Just because a clause is in a contract to let a union defend one for it, or a loophole exists to exploit..... using it can be the definition of classless. Unions historically have been classless and crooks about as much as helpful and beneficial.

 

Hey...... Anyone who wears a neck beard isn't classy .... period. Case closed.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I don't fault the Perkins for filing the grievance, but the Twins didn't screw up or breach any contract. Perkins was pitching poorly, he got hurt, went on the DL, did a rehab stint, and then the Twins optioned him. Arcia probably had a better case for a grievance last year. Note that Perkins didn't push the grievance too far -- they settled short of the service time that would have made Perkins arbitration eligible that winter.

not the case according to the article. The grievance was because the Teins skipped the rehab assignment and immediately optioned Perk as soon as he was eligible to come off the DL to avoid Super 2 status. I don't know if Super 2 avoidance was the plan, but it seems plausible, and generally a player does the rehab assignment first before being optioned.

[DJSim22]

All one has to do is consider the source of the article.  How he has a job is beyond me.