Climate Change

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

A few years is absurd, but not 50 years. There is some recently released data that shows the amount of increase we could expect. While it isn't water world, the result would be catastrophic.

Why do you think carbon us such a poor greenhouse gas? I've read some very compelling science that shows carbon to be a very reliable indicator.

 

CO2 is a lagging indicator, not a leading one.  The warming oceans causes it's release into the atmosphere far more than burning fuel. The flip side, is that it's good for plants, and more CO2 makes their habitation better.

 

To me, that's one of the silliest things (besides the drama of the polar ice caps melting and Water World happening for real) about this debate.  It's not nearly the best greenhouse gas out there, and it likely lags warming. 

 

By the way, for all the talk about climate changes, this planet has gone through and come out of how many ice ages?  The great lakes were formed after one in which our Tundra biome became more temperate melting all the glaciers.  That warming happened thousands of years ago, long before man would have been able to affect the environment. That's another big problem I have with this discussion.  We have well documented massive warming and cooling phases in our history that every accepts as fact, yet no one in this debate is willing to concede that this could just be part of a grand geo-cycle despite plenty of evidence indicating it's possible. 

 

Again, I have no problems with the idea that we should keep the earth clean, but this idea that we are the central cause of climate change is really nothing more than people pushing agenda for the wrong reasons.  I'm not saying mankind could contribute in some way or that there isn't any kind of climate change, but I do think this problem is being manufactured more to the financial benefit of some than anything else... and sadly, we are just arrogant enough as a species to assume that this must be our fault in some way. 

 

By all means, keep the planet clean.  It's a great idea.  By all means, keep researching this and figuring it out, but please for the love of all things intelligent, take a step back and look at the big picture and figure out what caused warming/cooling periods that mankind couldn't have impacted before we start blaming this one on us.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Is the natural state of the earth a greenhouse and we are just reentering that period? 

 

It's scary to think that within a few hundred years, major coastal cities might be uninhabitable. What the hell is going to happen?

 

There actually is evidence out there that this planet was at one time a greenhouse.   But your second part is just untrue

 

 

[Craig Arko]

I was hoping to see us get to Mars in my lifetime. Way preferable to Venus.

 

http://www.space.com/18527-venus-atmosphere.html

 

[Willihammer]

 

CO2 is a lagging indicator, not a leading one.  The warming oceans causes it's release into the atmosphere far more than burning fuel. The flip side, is that it's good for plants, and more CO2 makes their habitation better.

In that link, the author says past warming eras were kicked off by polar ice melting (which is happening again), and that 90% of warming occurred after the CO2 release. The myth its debunking is that CO2 is a lagging indicator.

 

It does feel arrogant to think human activites impact the earth. But as this link explains, 5000 years worth of CO2 increase has occurred in the last 120 years, and the explanation is that the Earth's ability to absorb the additional output caused by humans is limited. So it compounded over the years to the point now where its meaningful.

[Craig Arko]

 

In that link, the author says past warming eras were kicked off by polar ice melting (which is happening again), and that 90% of warming occurred after the CO2 release. The myth its debunking is that CO2 is a lagging indicator.

 

It does feel arrogant to think human activites impact the earth. But as this link explains, 5000 years worth of CO2 increase has occurred in the last 120 years, and the explanation is that the Earth's ability to absorb the additional output caused by humans is limited. So it compounded over the years to the point now where its meaningful.

Human activities have reached the point where they really can impact the planet. This is not to say the the Earth cannot recover and continue to evolve after the irritant is gone. Plenty of mass extinctions in the fossil record. I'm doubtful we'll outdo the Permian-Triassic, but you never know.

 

http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/mass-extinction/

[Mike Sixel]

I don't understand why it matters if we are adding to a natural cycle, or the major cause of the movement in temperature.

 

I also don't understand why it matters if this is natural or not..........we have the opportunity to mitigate the damage to our species. We should take that opportunity, while doing our best not to alter the world in bad ways. There are small, low risk, things we can try. If they don't work, fine......

[Craig Arko]

 

I don't understand why it matters if we are adding to a natural cycle, or the major cause of the movement in temperature.

 

I also don't understand why it matters if this is natural or not..........we have the opportunity to mitigate the damage to our species. We should take that opportunity, while doing our best not to alter the world in bad ways. There are small, low risk, things we can try. If they don't work, fine......

One word: Dogma.

[Craig Arko]

 

One word: Dogma.

And a second word: Bucks.

[Mike Sixel]

 

And a second word: Bucks.

 

There is plenty of money to be made in building all new stuff that no one else is currently building, but yes, protecting the past money is usually what we do......

[nicksaviking]

 

And a second word: Bucks.

 

I've been saying for years that the Wisconsin pro basketball team was causing much more damage than they're worth.

[Craig Arko]

 

I've been saying for years that the Wisconsin pro basketball team was causing much more damage than they're worth.

And those bloody deer.

[glunn]

It seems to me that regardless of whether you agree with scientists that global warming is man made, it still makes sense to pursue solar power, wind power and tidal power in order to reduce pollution and to reduce the cash going to Middle Eastern countries. 

 

Coal mining is bad for miners and fracking endangers the water supply and can cause earthquakes. Oil is bad when it spills and causes health problems when we use it for cars and home heating.

 

I am a lawyer not a scientist. I would not trust a scientist to do legal work, because they are not trained for it.  By the same token, I am inclined to trust scientists to come to valid scientific conclusions, because that is what they are trained to do. It also seems to me that the vast majority of qualified scientists appear to agree that mankind is at least part of the problem, but even if they are wrong and the real problem is sunspots, I believe that we would still be better off without fossil fuels.

[Craig Arko]

Some vizualizations.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

How do we separate the politics from the science? 

[Craig Arko]

How do we separate the politics from the science?

 

Look for reputable peer-reviewed sources in the literature.

[ashbury]

Look for reputable peer-reviewed sources in the literature.

Depends on the repute you value, and your peers.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Is a modest carbon emissions bill really the solution? Do news stories on Huffpost claiming that man made warming is "scientific fact" help? Does publishing meta-studies that measure whether 97% or 99% scientists agree on all the other studies, do those help?

 

Not trying to sound combative. Just asking questions. How do we cut through the noise and define the problem this is to us and what to do about it.

[Shane Wahl]

My biggest moral failing in my life is eating meat. If people generally stopped or reduced consumption by 90% it would mean drastic changes for the better.

 

 

[Shane Wahl]

I get squeamish when I read about the "political" or "monied" bias of 97%+ of scientists. Pretty dubious claim. I don't think even Fox News tries that anymore.

[biggentleben]

 

My biggest moral failing in my life is eating meat. If people generally stopped or reduced consumption by 90% it would mean drastic changes for the better.

 

I don't look at it in the same way. I eat high-quality meats. I would say most of the issue revolves around the over-consumption of red meats, though. I have turkey sandwiches frequently for lunch. I rarely enjoy a steak or a hamburger, but the beef comes from my dad's farm or from local farmers. The Wal-mart beef is the issue in the red meat in my opinion.

[Craig Arko]

I think my greatest moral failing is this strange desire to put some people into small, unmarked, graves in the yard.

 

Certainly none in this conversation, though,

 

 

 

P.S. Ad-blocking is rising up the list quickly.

[Shane Wahl]

 

I don't look at it in the same way. I eat high-quality meats. I would say most of the issue revolves around the over-consumption of red meats, though. I have turkey sandwiches frequently for lunch. I rarely enjoy a steak or a hamburger, but the beef comes from my dad's farm or from local farmers. The Wal-mart beef is the issue in the red meat in my opinion.

 

The effect on climate change is enormous. Cowspiracy has some flaws, and might be overstating things, but it is a great documentary about this issue.

[biggentleben]

 

The effect on climate change is enormous. Cowspiracy has some flaws, and might be overstating things, but it is a great documentary about this issue.

 

I've seen it. It's the big feed lot/slaughter house issue that essentially is what supplies your Wal-mart beef.

[Bark's Lounge]

This may seem like a weird post. I just wanted to let everyone know that I care about everyone that has posted here and beyond and I care about our future and survival.

 

Climate change is no revelation and it does not seem like many of the posts on this thread dictated it a non-factor.

 

Talking is good. But I believe it is time to take it to the streets, to cause some orderly/other chaos and stir the pot. Voices need to be heard. Movements need to be made. For most of us, we are secured in our little box and we talk about things, but never act on them in a way that can bring some change. We rely on the worst possible people to do that for us.

 

I don't act on those impulses, because I don't want to be some rah rah guy who looks like an ass, because no one has his back.

 

We need masses of people, we need people to stand up for their principles, and to make movements like this, it needs to be organized and planned out correctly. It needs to structured and not thrown out on a whim. I'm not asking people of anything, but I'd sure like some feedback.

 

I think we (the USA) have come to a point where we need to do things ourselves to make a great change, instead of relying on some false prophet or a gang of people who could care less about anything less than $$$.

 

I'd like to think we can all have a slice of the pie, and I get you need to earn it, but the structures that are in place let us down on all levels... for some even more.

 

I could post this for the political thread, it would jive pretty much the same.

 

I think the time is upon us, or has been overdue for us citizens to rise up and challenge our broken system and push it to it's limit.

[TheLeviathan]

It's sad that the only climate/environmental stuff that can seem to generate any kind of major emotional outpouring involves individual animals shot for a myriad of reasons.

[PseudoSABR]

 

It's sad that the only climate/environmental stuff that can seem to generate any kind of major emotional outpouring involves individual animals shot for a myriad of reasons.

Reminds me of this: Today, my dad was talking about movies generally, and said this, "Kill as many humans as you like, but kill a dog...." He just couldn't finish the sentence he was so distraught.  Something that's oddly easy to relate to, too.  The animal v. stupid human is a stinker of a dilemma for Americans, I think.

 

Mass outpouring happens because of the absurd, not the logical, unfortunately.  Americans are too complacent, too happy with their scraps of privilege to change the system which makes them fat and stupid. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Reminds of this: Today, my dad talking about movies generally, and said this, "Kill as many humans as you like, but kill a dog...." He just couldn't finish the sentence he was so distraught.  Something that's oddly easy to relate, too.  The animal v. stupid human is a stinker of a dilemma for Americans, I think.

 

Mass outpouring happens because of the absurd, not the logical, unfortunately.  Americans are too complacent, too happy with their scraps of privilege to change the system which makes them fat and stupid. 

 

I agree, it's just fascinating to see it happen.  Literally hundreds of thousands of morons flocking to a non-issue when there are so many pressing ones.  Every time it happens it absolutely baffles and depresses me.

[Mike Sixel]

I think you are confusing immediacy, and caring. Plenty of people care about things they don't comment on. But killing a gorilla is unusual. Unusual things happen, those get comments. That doesn't mean people are not acting on other issues. That said, this is an example of distracting the masses.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think you are confusing immediacy, and caring. Plenty of people care about things they don't comment on. But killing a gorilla is unusual. Unusual things happen, those get comments. That doesn't mean people are not acting on other issues. That said, this is an example of distracting the masses.....

 

People might care in some vague way, but they don't generate even a fraction of the passion.  I guess my point was that moving things forward on climate change is going to have to generate real passion at some point.  So it's strange to see so much of it wasted elsewhere.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's easy to care about one dead animal.

 

It's hard to change your entire life by reducing plastic use, eating less meat, driving fewer miles in smaller cars, and reducing consumer tendencies.