Climate Change

[nicksaviking]

 

People might care in some vague way, but they don't generate even a fraction of the passion.  I guess my point was that moving things forward on climate change is going to have to generate real passion at some point.  So it's strange to see so much of it wasted elsewhere.

 

I'm with everyone with the climate change issue, but I'm not sure a giant mass protest is needed, this is the 21st century, people do things because it makes them look cool, and there does seem to be considerable more interest in Tesla cars, solar panels, single-sort recycling and other such Eco-friendly directives. 

 

Walmart and McDonalds already have said they will go with free range chickens, that wasn't done out of conscious, it was done out of PR and profitability. They'll do the same thing with these slaughterhouses when it's in their best interest.

 

It may not be at the speed we like, but things are turning in our favor. I don't think placards and mass chants outside a corporate office are going to have any more effect than liking the right Facebook pages and following the right Twitter posters. I really don't do social media aside from TD, but I really think it's going to win this war as stupid, and at times lazy, as I think it usually is.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm with everyone with the climate change issue, but I'm not sure a giant mass protest is needed, this is the 21st century, people do things because it makes them look cool, and there does seem to be considerable more interest in Tesla cars, solar panels, single-sort recycling and other such Eco-friendly directives. 

 

Walmart and McDonalds already have said they will go with free range chickens, that wasn't done out of conscious, it was done out of PR and profitability. They'll do the same thing with these slaughterhouses when it's in their best interest.

 

It may not be at the speed we like, but things are turning in our favor. I don't think placards and mass chants outside a corporate office are going to have any more effect than liking the right Facebook pages and following the right Twitter posters. I really don't do social media aside from TD, but I really think it's going to win this war, as stupid and at times lazy as I think it usually is.

I think the idea of protesting is wrong-headed... I mean, sure, it might do *some* good but it's a lazy, easy way out of blaming oneself for the mess we're in.

 

The answer is to stop using so many products, stop consuming so much energy, and the rest falls in line. Using the government to clean up energy producers will help but what will help the most is if we reduce consumption.

 

The government can only do so much. Protest can only do so much. At the end of the day, it's our fault. Every damned one of us. We're the ones who double-bag plastic bags in the grocery store. We're the ones who buy disposable plastic cups from fast food chains. We're the ones who drive giant SUVs 25 miles each way to work. We're the ones who demanded cheap meat at any cost. We're the ones with 2800 sq ft homes that consume crazy amounts of electricity and gas.

 

I'm not some self-righteous prig about it... I certainly over-consume in my own ways but we need to stop blaming others for our mistakes and laziness.

[Vanimal46]

If a brewery would offer to refill the same 24 cans of beer the rest of my life, I can confidently say I can conserve the production of aluminum cans....  

[nicksaviking]

 

I'm not some self-righteous prig about it... I certainly over-consume in my own ways but I also realize that real change comes from the bottom up

 

I agree, and sorry if this sounds judgmental, but I think so much of the social media "outrage" that has previously, and will continue to, swinging things in our favor usually draws the lowest-common denominator crowd. That's basically bottom up in my book.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think the idea of protesting is wrong-headed... I mean, sure, it might do *some* good but it's a lazy, easy way out of blaming oneself for the mess we're in.

 

The answer is to stop using so many products, stop consuming so much energy, and the rest falls in line. Using the government to clean up energy producers will help but what will help the most is if we reduce consumption.

 

The government can only do so much. Protest can only do so much. At the end of the day, it's our fault. Every damned one of us. We're the ones who double-bag plastic bags in the grocery store. We're the ones who buy disposable plastic cups from fast food chains. We're the ones who drive giant SUVs 25 miles each way to work. We're the ones who demanded cheap meat at any cost. We're the ones with 2800 sq ft homes that consume crazy amounts of electricity and gas.

 

I'm not some self-righteous prig about it... I certainly over-consume in my own ways but we need to stop blaming others for our mistakes and laziness.

 

Bottled water.....ugh....just....ugh.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree, and sorry if this sounds judgmental, but I think so much of the social media "outrage" that has previously, and will continue to, swinging things in our favor usually draws the lowest-common denominator crowd. That's basically bottom up in my book.

Yeah, maybe... But so many of those people want to change something external while allowing their bad habits to carry on indefinitely.

 

And that won't work.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bottled water.....ugh....just....ugh.

I could chop off eight fingers and still have more fingers than water bottles purchased in the past two years (was stuck on the road once and badly needed something to drink).

 

Our daily decisions matter.

[nicksaviking]

 

Yeah, maybe... But so many of those people want to change something external while allowing their bad habits to carry on indefinitely.

And that won't work.

 

No it won't. That's why driving an electric car and bringing your own reusable grocery bags to the store need to be cool and fashionable, and they slowly are starting to.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

No it won't. That's why driving an electric car and bringing your own reusable grocery bags to the store need to be cool and fashionable, and they slowly are starting to.

Yeah, definitely steps in the right direction but it's the tip of the iceberg. I hope following generations begin to implement more consumer-level ideas that drastically reduce consumption but I'm not holding my breath.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm with everyone with the climate change issue, but I'm not sure a giant mass protest is needed

 

Passion need not manifest only as protest.  Passion/care/concern/attention is what turns something obscure into something common. We need people to care about what will help the earth in more than just a cursory way.  We need them to act on it and not just talk about it and that's where most climate initiatives seem to fall down.  Yet one justified gorilla death gets people acting, talking, caring, etc.

 

Hell, we can't even get that faux outrage connected to the very real environmental issues that are killing the gorilla species!  

 

I just lament not being able to connect that passion/care/concern to something even vaguely important rather than utterly stupid.

[Mike Sixel]

Given their won't be any jobs in a generation or two, I'm not worried about consumerism much in the future...... 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Passion need not manifest only as protest.  Passion/care/concern/attention is what turns something obscure into something common. We need people to care about what will help the earth in more than just a cursory way.  We need them to act on it and not just talk about it and that's where most climate initiatives seem to fall down.  Yet one justified gorilla death gets people acting, talking, caring, etc.

 

Hell, we can't even get that faux outrage connected to the very real environmental issues that are killing the gorilla species!  

 

I just lament not being able to connect that passion/care/concern to something even vaguely important rather than utterly stupid.

 

You do realize that's the goal of the elite, right? To distract us with stuff that doesn't matter at all? And, many in the US (and I'd guess the world) fall right into it every day.

 

But, again, I really think you are conflating an immediate reaction (and I wonder by how many people really) with quiet, non-public, actions that many are taking, they just don't talk about in a way that millions are all aware of it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You do realize that's the goal of the elite, right? To distract us with stuff that doesn't matter at all? And, many in the US (and I'd guess the world) fall right into it every day.

 

But, again, I really think you are conflating an immediate reaction (and I wonder by how many people really) with quiet, non-public, actions that many are taking, they just don't talk about in a way that millions are all aware of it.

 

The "goal of the elite" stuff I'm going to ignore because it leads down all sorts of silly paths.  Whatever Cabal of Evil you speak of is probably not worth the conversation unless you have a tinfoil hat to share.

 

Hundreds of thousands signed those petitions and have blown it up.  Doing little things every day does help and it will be somewhat of a slow burn to get things changed, but at the same time we need some really significant changes (and relatively soon) and we seem to generate little to any passion to do that.  Myself included.  I don't know what sort of catalyst it will take to get hundreds of thousands of us to suddenly stop driving gas vehicles.  Or downsize our houses.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't know what sort of catalyst it will take to get hundreds of thousands of us to suddenly stop driving gas vehicles.

This is one situation where I think the government could have had a big effect by taxing gasoline when the price started to drop in 2012 or 2013.

 

People were buying smaller cars when gas was $3+ per gallon. The moment it started to drop, people resumed buying pickup trucks and SUVs.

 

My heart sank when that happened. It didn't surprise me but it certainly disappointed me.

[Mike Sixel]

You don't think trans in the bathroom is a distraction conversation?

[Vanimal46]

The oil and gas industry had their 200 year run where people made boat loads of money. Now people are jumping ship because of the huge decline in the industry.. My hope is that the industry collapses in favor of solar/green energy for the future. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

You don't think trans in the bathroom is a distraction conversation?

 

No, I think some idiots actually believe that's an issue.  And, even moreso, they believe it's something that will rile up their base to support them because they'll believe it's an issue.

 

I just bristle every time someone uses "the elites" in a sentence.  You lose me immediately.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

No, I think some idiots actually believe that's an issue.  And, even moreso, they believe it's something that will rile up their base to support them because they'll believe it's an issue.

 

I just bristle every time someone uses "the elites" in a sentence.  You lose me immediately.

I think you're both right.

 

I also dislike the use of the term "elites" but it's pretty obvious the modern GOP has mastered the art of distracting their own constituency with shiny baubles that don't really matter to the average person. They routinely get people to vote for them despite the GOP's plans to vote directly in opposition to that person's best interests, all in the name of the weird social environment we've seen manifest over the past three decades.

 

It will ultimately end with the demise of the current GOP - we're already most of the way there, IMO - but seeing how the GOP has double downed on this idea repeatedly over the past 15 years to the point where America has reached absurdist levels, it's hard to deny "distraction" is a real tactic in use in politics.

[Mike Sixel]

No, I think some idiots actually believe that's an issue. And, even moreso, they believe it's something that will rile up their base to support them because they'll believe it's an issue.

 

I just bristle every time someone uses "the elites" in a sentence. You lose me immediately.

Fair. We won't agree. I know distraction is a tool. But fair.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Fair. We won't agree. I know distraction is a tool. But fair.

 

I don't disagree about distractions and Brock is right that politicians use them all the time, but many of these online outrage orgies are non-political.  If anyone is using something like the gorilla shooting as a distraction, it's ourselves.

[PseudoSABR]

Consumer choices will hardly be enough to alter our economy and infrastructure to the point that climate change is actually positively effected.  Impact of choices, even on a larger scale, is still much too small.  If all bring our own grocery bags to the store, that doesn't eliminate the plastic island floating out in the Pacific, nor does it slow the rate of plastic production generally.  For as much as even Americans as a whole scaled back our carbon footprint (or whatever), the rest of the World will be increasing their footprint.  

 

The change necessary to stifle climate change is so fundamental that personal steps just won't get the job done.  I fear an economic collapse will be the only real way we even begin to address the problem earnestly as a society -- given the chance to rebuild our economy and infrastructure perhaps we could better take climate, etc. into account.  

 

I think too often people recycle, bring their own grocery bags, etc. and then wash their hands of the problem.  "Well I've done my part! What else do you want me to do?"  Sometimes these personal choices, even though they are noble, act as soporifics for the larger pending doom.  

[Mike Sixel]

As I said above......an economic crisis is coming. Not sure what will happen on the other side, exactly....

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not to sound pretentious, but people use bottled water for all sorts of reasons ranging from taste of rusting pipes they have no means to replace, to deep, institutional trust issues that go back centuries (or only go back a couple years, in the Flint case).

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

As I said above......an economic crisis is coming. Not sure what will happen on the other side, exactly....

Agree 100 percent

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Consumer choices will hardly be enough to alter our economy and infrastructure to the point that climate change is actually positively effected.  Impact of choices, even on a larger scale, is still much too small.  If all bring our own grocery bags to the store, that doesn't eliminate the plastic island floating out in the Pacific, nor does it slow the rate of plastic production generally.  For as much as even Americans as a whole scaled back our carbon footprint (or whatever), the rest of the World will be increasing their footprint.  

 

The change necessary to stifle climate change is so fundamental that personal steps just won't get the job done.  I fear an economic collapse will be the only real way we even begin to address the problem earnestly as a society -- given the chance to rebuild our economy and infrastructure perhaps we could better take climate, etc. into account.  

 

I think too often people recycle, bring their own grocery bags, etc. and then wash their hands of the problem.  "Well I've done my part! What else do you want me to do?"  Sometimes these personal choices, even though they are noble, act as soporifics for the larger pending doom.  

Sure, but we have limited ability to force other nations to comply.

 

And given how the US leads the way in over-consumption and carbon footprint per capita, getting our own house in order is a good place to start. It's the one thing we have complete control over fixing.

 

As for your last paragraph, I don't entire disagree... But on the other hand, I feel people wash their hands of the problem because it's "too big to fix myself" and continue leading a life of over-consumption because "it doesn't matter anyway".

 

Both are wrong-headed. Decisions need to be made at both the personal and national level to change things.

 

Americans used 50 billion water bottles last year. Now, I don't rant and rave about water bottles most of the time because it's such an obvious thing to cut out of our lives (most of the time) that it should have been done voluntarily years ago.

 

And that's just one thing. One thing. You don't believe 10 trillion water bottles has an impact on the world over a 20 year period?

 

Simply cutting that consumption in half results in 5 trillion fewer water bottles being manufactured, discarded, and left god only knows where to (never) decompose.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not to sound pretentious, but people use bottled water for all sorts of reasons ranging from taste of rusting pipes they have no means to replace, to deep, institutional trust issues that go back centuries (or only go back a couple years, in the Flint case).

 

Sure, some do. OTOH, I sat in a week long meeting last month, where water was on the table, and people went out and bought bottled water. Or took it when offered at lunch. Just wasteful.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I can't wrap my head around the idea that consumer choices can't impact things positively.

 

Americans consume over one gallon of gasoline per day per capita.

 

Cut that by only 25% and that means we consume nearly 40 billion fewer gallons of gasoline per year. Every year.

 

How can that not make a difference? Sure, China may make up the difference through poor regulation and increased wealth but we can't take the moral high ground and enact global change if we refuse to do it ourselves.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I can't wrap my head around the idea that consumer choices can't impact things positively.

 

Americans consume over one gallon of gasoline per day per capita.

 

Cut that by only 25% and that means we consume nearly 40 billion fewer gallons of gasoline per year. Every year.

 

How can that not make a difference? Sure, China may make up the difference through poor regulation and increased wealth but we can't take the moral high ground and enact global change if we refuse to do it ourselves.

It makes a difference, but it doesn't begin to really fix the problem on a large scale.  It merely slows the rate of towards our eventual climate crisis.  Consuming less is not enough, and consuming nothing is not an option....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It makes a difference, but it doesn't begin to really fix the problem on a large scale.  It merely slows the rate of towards our eventual climate crisis.  Consuming less is not enough, and consuming nothing is not an option....

No, it won't entirely fix the problem but it's a big step in the right direction.

 

My point at large is that we can't continue to make ****ty decisions and defend them because they're easy and make us comfortable. Everyone has to chip in a little and if someone is resistant to doing that, they need to take a good long look at why they're resistant to making the world a slightly better place to live.

 

I don't expect everyone to go plastic-free and grow 50% of their food in their back yard but if we all make small efforts here and there to conserve, it'd make a difference to the world.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For example, my "vice" is that I buy too many electronics, which are very damaging to the environment. I've tried to scale that back a bit in recent years - to middling effect - but I tried to make up for it by selling my second car and using public transport to get around (along with a motorcycle on occasion).

 

Everyone has vices and reasons they "need" (term used loosely) to consume certain things... But everyone should find small ways to scale back their lifestyle and sometimes accept inconvenience over convenience for the good of the planet.

 

It's not a lot to ask and it adds up over time.