Twins Inactive. Should Ryan be Making Moves?

[DaveW]

When "not bringing back Duensing or Boyer" is listed among your GM's greatest offseason accomplishments, you're having to squint pretty hard to come up with a list, no?

"Minnesota nice" personified

 

Yeah, we shouldn't be applauding TR and co for not bringing back replacement level players, especially ones that don't have options and would cost more than the minimum, that should be "business as usual"

[DaveW]

But we do know while other teams have completed transactions, after attempting to do so, we haven't while also attempting to do so. Is that fairly accurate?

 

Sports is a pretty results oriented business right? Points for trying don't really accumulate.

 

Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.

As sean Connery said in the rock:

 

Losers always try their best to sign someone.

 

Winners go home and sign the prom queen (or Cy Young)

 

I think that was the quote, right?

[bird]

 

It's premature to label Park a middle of the order MLB bat considering he's never played one professional game for any MLB organization.  It's also not necessarily true they outbid every other team. We don't know how many bid for him and it's not like we broke the bank to get him.  It's not like all these teams just threw up their hands and said we can't match the Twins huge offer. Did we outbid every other team for Nishioka too?

 

And getting a backup catcher is fine, except now we have two of those and no quality starting catcher. We don't know that we have a better player than Hicks available either, at least not one that is ready in the system. Unless you're 100% on board with having Sano out there. 

 

 

Don't miss the point though. No one said they outbid every other team for him, but they DID outbid every other bidder, did they not? The point is,  it's a matter of personal perspective, and while one person will focus on Park as a cheap long shot, another might think of him as a fairly expensive but worthwhile risk. A third will want to hammer the point that they didn't break the bank to get him for one reason or another.

 

The point is that one person's opinion is that we don't have a better alternative to Hicks and that Murphy is a backup caliber catcher, and that another person may not totally agree and would phrase things in a less negative light. As for Sano, I'm listening to Molitor and others and waiting to see rather than forming an opinion about something I cannot credibly pass judgment on.

 

 

[DocBauer]

BTW...Ryan doesn't need to go nuts. He doesn't have to remake the roster. That would be a mistake to be sure. This is a team with a bunch of youngsters making their way to the bigs the last two years. Some look impressive, some have struggled a bit, some have don't both. And there's more on the way this season.

 

But the roster does have real need for augmentation. There is need and opportunity for the pen and the OF. We don't need knee jerk moves, but, we also don't need to clock moves with a sun dial either. The front office got off to a good start. Not recycling the same old guys is a good start. Now, let's not stumble as we come around the bend headed toward the finish line.

[bird]

 

When "not bringing back Duensing or Boyer" is listed among your GM's greatest offseason accomplishments, you're having to squint pretty hard to come up with a list, no?

 

Who in a right or fair mind would ever say that, Chief?

[USAFChief]

We may not like the fact that the Twins haven't announced a deal we like during the meetings. But to describe the Twins as Inactive is farcical. We hardly have the slightest inkling about what goes on.

If we have hardly the slightest inkling about what goes on, how do you know they weren't inactive?

[USAFChief]

Who in a right or fair mind would ever say that, Chief?

Twas on your list, my friend.

[jimmer]

 

Don't miss the point though. No one said they outbid every other team for him, but they DID outbid every other bidder, did they not? 

No one said they outbid every other team for him? Yes, yes someone did.  In this thread a few posts ago.

 

'Or, one might phrase it this way: he got a catcher who is better, created an opening in the OF for a better player, and outbid every other team for a middle of the order bat'

[bird]

 

But we do know while other teams have completed transactions, after attempting to do so, we haven't while also attempting to do so.  Is that fairly accurate?

 

Sports is a pretty results oriented business right?  Points for trying don't really accumulate.

 

Try not.  Do, or do not.  There is no try.

 

If the Twins don't have a new LH reliever who meets or exceeds the Jepsen Standard in terms of talent before spring training starts, I'll be critical. I have a problem with some of my pals here who work pretty hard to characterize a lack of results automatically as a funs=ction of inactivity, or a lack of effort, or timidity, etc.

 

The Twins were in on Tony Sipp. His agent said, " hey, some times things don't work out. First class organization." Clear as day, Some will rip Ryan a new one based on "results".  

 

You gotta get results. But there sure as hell is a try. Criticize him when the time comes if you don't like the results, but just be fair about the whole thing, that's all.

[bird]

 

If we have hardly the slightest inkling about what goes on, how do you know they weren't inactive?

C'mon Chief, you're reading the same stuff I am. You know they were't inactive.

[jimmer]

 

Don't miss the point though. No one said they outbid every other team for him, but they DID outbid every other bidder, did they not? The point is,  it's a matter of personal perspective, and while one person will focus on Park as a cheap long shot, another might think of him as a fairly expensive but worthwhile risk. A third will want to hammer the point that they didn't break the bank to get him for one reason or another.

 

The point is that one person's opinion is that we don't have a better alternative to Hicks and that Murphy is a backup caliber catcher, and that another person may not totally agree and would phrase things in a less negative light. As for Sano, I'm listening to Molitor and others and waiting to see rather than forming an opinion about something I cannot credibly pass judgment on.

Are there people who really believe he's a fairly expensive but worthwhile risk?  In today game, that price is peanuts.  And I don't care that they didn't break the bank to get him, I'm just trying to point out that it's not like we paid so much that we outbid every other team or even a bunch of teams so why try and make it seem that way? 

 

As Sano goes, he's a very large player who has never played in the OF at any level.  This team hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to their evaluation of defensive capabilities lately.

[bird]

 

"Minnesota nice" personified

Yeah, we shouldn't be applauding TR and co for not bringing back replacement level players, especially ones that don't have options and would cost more than the minimum, that should be "business as usual"

 

Who's applauding him for that? I'm merely pointing out that the Twins are in the midst of an active process, which is something you would never even begrudgingly offer, right? 

[jimmer]

 

If the Twins don't have a new LH reliever who meets or exceeds the Jepsen Standard in terms of talent before spring training starts, I'll be critical. I have a problem with some of my pals here who work pretty hard to characterize a lack of results automatically as a funs=ction of inactivity, or a lack of effort, or timidity, etc.

 

The Twins were in on Tony Sipp. His agent said, " hey, some times things don't work out. First class organization." Clear as day, Some will rip Ryan a new one based on "results".  

 

You gotta get results. But there sure as hell is a try. Criticize him when the time comes if you don't like the results, but just be fair about the whole thing, that's all.

We have a long history of results, or lack thereof, to form an opinion.  It's not like we should just toss aside prior actions at the end of every season and forget he hasn't been GM for many, many years.

 

And I will remember you said that about being critical. I've yet to see you actually do that, though I have seen you threat to do so.  I'm hoping we do get a true quality LH reliever so you don't have to, though. 

[bird]

 

Are there people who really believe he's a fairly expensive but worthwhile risk?  

 

 

Of course there are.

[USAFChief]

C'mon Chief, you're reading the same stuff I am. You know they were't inactive.

Well, that's where we disagree.

 

"Inactive" Seems a perfectly apt description of the Twins at the winter meetings.

[jimmer]

 

Of course there are.

Then they aren't paying attention to what players cost nowadays or just ignoring it.  I didn't read one article about the signing that said it was anything other than the kind of signing that is low risk.

[DaveW]

Since the winter meetings have started the twins have signed or traded for exactly zero players. If that isn't inactive I don't know what is.

 

The only things "rumored" or said were they were interested in C level free agents like Sipp, Rodney (who I would like to bring in actually) and the very aggressive "we are open to trading Ricky Nolasco" bit, followed by "well, we don't want to sell low on nolasco"

 

If it looks like an inactive, smells like an inactive and quacks like an inactive, it's inactive.

 

If you want to argue this is the correct path or strategy currently? Fine, that's a perfectly reasonable stance. But to say the twins HAVENT been inactive overall this winter meetings? That's just false.

[gunnarthor]

 

Who are some of the many good relievers still out there?

Broxton, Sipp, Cishek, Clippard, Rodney, Abad. I mean take your pick. The link on mlbtr had a bunch of guys. Relief pitchers are pretty combustible but there really isn't that much difference between the majority of them.  Some guy like Fein or Burton or Guierrier can carve out some pretty solid seasons after being found in the garbage bin. Who are you worried we missed out on?  O'Day for 4/31?  3/25 for Soria?  Did you want the Twins to lock up Ryan Madson for his age 35-37 seasons?  2/7 for Oliver Perez? 

 

I admit I've been trying to ignore the negative nelly threads so perhaps I missed out on who the big miss was but right now it doesn't look like much reason to be so negative. 

[rico7961]

Ken Giles, Justin Wilson, Carson Smith, anyone of the 3 would have been a welcome addition to the Twins bullpen. Only prospects given up and years of team control on each. This is the kind of relievers TR should be looking for. I'm sure there are more of them out there. I guess you have to make the decision to either give up some of your "valued prospects" or open the vault and sign FA. I hope they don't waste payroll on the Cott's and Thornton's of the league. If you want to go that route you're better off letting some of those "prized prospects" that you were unwilling to trade, come to the majors and pitch. Lets hope TR does something to improve the bullpen. Sign a FA or trade some prospects for some good cost controllable relievers. And hope he doesn't waste payroll on washed up trash.

[sane09]

 

Well boys, we're gonna disagree about what constitutes activity and about what constitutes an expense I guess. 

It is possible to be VERY active, work VERY hard and tire yourself out, but not accomplish anything.
I have explained this to my wife many times after a Saturday of Honey-do's where nothing significant was completed.
So Ryan may have been VERY active, worked VERY hard and tired himself out, but not accomplished  anything.
Like pushing on a Redwood tree that won't move.
In physics, zero work is accomplished, which is a normal day for most of my physic professors.

[Jham]

Since active or inactive is relative, I think some much of the disagreement is based on these varying relations.  To me, Ryan has been more active than in some prior years, although the last couple he's made splashy signings, so this year could be seen as more aggressive than normal but less than last year or the year before.  

If your baseline isn't prior years, but rather other teams in the league, I would think we're somewhere in the middle, more active than many, less active than many, but I haven't gone team by team.  

 

That being said, I don't think it's fair to bash Ryan without knowing what his initial plan was with Plouffe and the rotation and what efforts were made to deal or sign players.  And I certainly don't believe it's fair to call him out for lacking aggression or sitting inactive while simultaneously marginalizing the moves he has made as insignificant.  If you disagree with his moves, that's one thing, saying he hasn't been active is another.  Trading Hicks, moving Sano, keeping Plouffe, signing Park, keeping May in the pen, keeping Fien, cutting lose on Boyer and Duensing are all significant decisions.  Many of these are risky moves.  Let's see how these tough decisions play out.  Standing pat can be an aggressive move.

[kab21]

At this point TR has to be planning to keep May in the bullpen.  That is the only way that this inactivity towards the 10-20M RP'ers can be understood.  We might not agree with that direction (May) but that is a fairly solid bullpen.  In addition that perhaps this is the year that they start promoting some of these hard throwing bullpen prospects.  There is a lot of potential that could be coming up next year.

 

If that is the plan (which I have my doubts) then there isn't much to do this offseason.  The Twins basically just need to let young guys play which many of us have been complaining about for years.

[USAFChief]

Broxton, Sipp, Cishek, Clippard, Rodney, Abad. I mean take your pick. The link on mlbtr had a bunch of guys. Relief pitchers are pretty combustible but there really isn't that much difference between the majority of them.  Some guy like Fein or Burton or Guierrier can carve out some pretty solid seasons after being found in the garbage bin. Who are you worried we missed out on?  O'Day for 4/31?  3/25 for Soria?  Did you want the Twins to lock up Ryan Madson for his age 35-37 seasons?  2/7 for Oliver Perez? 

 

I admit I've been trying to ignore the negative nelly threads so perhaps I missed out on who the big miss was but right now it doesn't look like much reason to be so negative.

 

I have long disagreed with the "relief pitchers are unimportant, unpredictable, and interchangeable" mantra that is fairly common.

 

Yeah, when you're filling your pen with scrap heap pickups, failed minor league starters with 89 MPH fastballs, and the like, I can see that theory.

 

But good relievers are anything but unpredictable. Joe Nathan was among the more predictable players in baseball. Chapman. Etc etc.

 

Adding "someone from the list...there's plenty left" isn't the goal.

 

Adding a couple who can be realistically counted on to be dominant...that should be the goal.

[HitInAPinch]

 

From my Winter Meetings preview last week:

 

 

They don't have a ton of needs. There are still lefty relievers available. There are still outfielders available. The Winter Meetings are fun and some big things happen... but coming out of it without any moves isn't earth-shattering. Still two months before spring training. 

100% agree.  The big market teams need to make big market splashes in the Winter Meetings.  The teams below that are making contact, getting leads from scouts, agents and other league sources.  From what I can see early in the morning, Sipp and Bastardo are still available.

[Shane Wahl]

Question: has anyone around here developed a list of the top 5 MLB lefty relievers who could be trade targets? The top 5-10 near-ready MiLB lefty relievers?

[h2oface]

Good thing that payroll is not limited...........

[gunnarthor]

 

I have long disagreed with the "relief pitchers are unimportant, unpredictable, and interchangeable" mantra that is fairly common.

Yeah, when you're filling your pen with scrap heap pickups, failed minor league starters with 89 MPH fastballs, and the like, I can see that theory.

But good relievers are anything but unpredictable. Joe Nathan was among the more predictable players in baseball. Chapman. Etc etc.

Adding "someone from the list...there's plenty left" isn't the goal.

Adding a couple who can be realistically counted on to be dominant...that should be the goal.

I think relief pitchers, as opposed to closers who usually only pitch the ninth with the lead, are pretty unpredictable.  Sipp, who everyone seems to want, had ERA+ of 89, 81, 115, 203 the last four years.  In those four years he maxed out at 1.7 WAR (1.0 fWAR) and had negative WAR seasons. I do agree there are some relief pitchers with very good track records - O'Day was the guy I wanted but not on a four year deal.  Ryan Madson didn't pitch in the majors since 2011 and had a great year this year and turned it into a three year deal.  Good for him.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

Question: has anyone around here developed a list of the top 5 MLB lefty relievers who could be trade targets? The top 5-10 near-ready MiLB lefty relievers?

I don't believe so although in write ups of pitchers, some places will say that player X is going to be a bullpen arm.  We saw that a lot with Burdi, who made baseball prospectus' top 101 last year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Twins were in on Tony Sipp. His agent said, " hey, some times things don't work out. First class organization." Clear as day, Some will rip Ryan a new one based on "results".

The Twins clearly need outside help in the bullpen, and Sipp has been a free agent since, what, a few days after the World Series?  It's on us to figure out if he's willing to sign here early, and if he's waiting out the market, maybe trying to land back in Houston, we've got to have other plans to deliver results.  

 

And these relievers may be getting a little more money than expected, but hardly enough that you should be focused on acquiring one and only one.

 

I'm willing to hold off my final judgement right now, but I think it's fair to say I don't like the offseason plan to improve the bullpen so far.  The longer we wait, the greater the risk we wind up shut out of real upgrades and basically repeating our weak bullpen plans of the last few seasons.

[USAFChief]

 

100% agree.  The big market teams need to make big market splashes in the Winter Meetings.  The teams below that are making contact, getting leads from scouts, agents and other league sources.  From what I can see early in the morning, Sipp and Bastardo are still available.

Per LENIII, yesterday:

 

"Was told by two people that Tony Sipp and Antonio Bastardo are NOT on Twins radar. A trade might be the best route to add a LHP."